Product Chat / GameGuru MAX First Build of 2021 Now Available

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Belidos
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 15:51 Edited at: 31st Jan 2021 15:57
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I think we're all getting confused with terminology, probably because there are so many variations in terminology depending on what aspect of 3D you are working in. When it comes to 3D models for game assets, a material is a set of textures (or a set of base colours if using materials without textures), a roughness map and a metallic map are textures that are part of a PBR texture set. Basically think of a material as being a container, or slot, that your textures go into. A metallic map is basically a texture that acts as a mask, it tells the render "hey all those white bits, they're metal dude, make them look metal, but don't touch the black bits they're not metal", and vice versa a roughness map is a mask that tells the renderer white is rough and black is glossy.

The problem is, other aspects of 3D will call the textures you use to apply images or colours to a model in the painting process "materials" too, so there's a lot of overlap of terminology, and sometimes something perfectly understandable to one group will be confusing to another group.
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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 15:59
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Except in some game engines, you can adjust metallic separately from the textures used to define them. Such as in Unreal. So, I would need separate materials if I wanted more control. I have a sci-fi entity in Unreal that uses two different node setups to better control two different materials on one entity. It's a fairly standard thing to do. One example (not on the model I'd just mentioned) is using a second material that you control via scripting. This could be for animating the material or even completely changing it. You may not want to do this to the entire model, but only to a specific part. A second material comes in handy for that sort of thing, too.
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Belidos
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 16:01
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Yes, but that's not a common workflow, that's more advanced stuff.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 16:05
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Gave my coldwar pack a spin and nice, huuuuuuuge difference okay, it isn't perfect. Texture maps needs to be updated and tweaked, still with the textures now being displayed at full res 4k the impact is good.Was about to delete the source files last year, as it was taking up space all 77.5 gigs of it, thankfully a sound mind prevailed.Looking forward to getting this updated.


Encountered issues with shadows and light popping in and out, it is a bug but I know the lighting and shadow system isn't complete so no biggie.





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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 16:06
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The thing is, MAX obviously has the ability to support multiple materials. When you initially import the entity, the importer shows a drop-down that allows you to toggle between all the materials and set up your textures for each one. It's just that it doesn't currently save that information and when you go to edit the entity properties, there's no drop-down. So, they just need to get this information to save on import/save and we'd be good.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 16:16 Edited at: 31st Jan 2021 16:17
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Quote: "Except in some game engines, you can adjust metallic separately from the textures used to define them. Such as in Unreal. So, I would need separate materials if I wanted more control. I have a sci-fi entity in Unreal that uses two different node setups to better control two different materials on one entity. It's a fairly standard thing to do. One example (not on the model I'd just mentioned) is using a second material that you control via scripting. This could be for animating the material or even completely changing it. You may not want to do this to the entire model, but only to a specific part. A second material comes in handy for that sort of thing, too."


Actually if you look in the classic mapbank, you will find a map called galaxy seed, have a look at it and revert back , and yes classic has the ability to animate textures, we have different shaders for that in fact. . You need to know your way around scripting of course but that is no different in unreal or unity either.

You keep saying material, material, material.

Just so people don't get confused.
Quote: "A material defines the optical properties of an object: its color and whether it is dull or shiny. A texture is a pattern that breaks up the uniform appearance of the material"
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 16:21
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Not that my opinion matters, but I have read this thread with interest so here's my two cents.

Argent is right that the multi-materials route does inherently offer more control. His example of metalness on a knife was a poor one to choose because you could get the exact same result with properly-designed metalness and roughness maps, but the point about using a secondary material for animated materials and trim sheets etc. is on-point. Totally get that.

Wizard of Id is also correct, there's more than one way to skin a cat and ultimately the artist is more of a factor than the workflow. You can still get extremely satisfying results using a one-material approach. In 99% of cases, most objects could either be designed with one material doing everything or several materials each doing something different. If you're going the mono-material route, you just have to design your textures smarter.

I don't use Unreal (yet) but I would assume multiple materials means loading more textures, which results in a greater load on the GPU. Given that MAX doesn't support texture streaming (as far as we know), it would seem prudent to limit the load on the GPU as much as possible, which makes mono-materials the way to go in my book. Yes you lose some degree of control but you gain performance, and ultimately that's more important to me, personally.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 16:46
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Quote: "it would seem prudent to limit the load on the GPU as much as possible, which makes mono-materials the way to go in my book. Yes you lose some degree of control but you gain performance, and ultimately that's more important to me, personally."


Max does indeed offer better support for multitextures......the performance wouldn't be impacted at all compared to classic, there are limits of course as is with all engines.Which why they have min system requirements on games created with that engine taking into account GPU memory.I asked lee about this and his words "go nuts" within reason.


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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 17:24
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From a neutral bystander that knows nothing of the PBR technicalities;
GGClassic always has just about EVERYTHING shine like factory dipped plastic/
shiny wax coating, varnish sprayed- glass coated materials (get the picture!?)
Varnish covered wood, metal, brick, cinder, rock, asphalt, concrete-- you name it!
You burn your eyes when you shine your flashlight at it (mostly when trying to make
a interior scene work), but the worst part is with standard settings, getting a high
reflection off of concrete sidewalks or asphalt roads or even GRASS! from the sun)...
It's been an ongoing issue that seems to never go away, so if there's a method
to rectify this weirdness then I'm all for it. LOL
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Earthling45
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 18:10 Edited at: 1st Feb 2021 02:43
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GubbyBlips, can you name an example entity on which you notice this and open a thread for it?

Let's see if we can tackle this problem.
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 18:26
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For me, the texture is like a recipe and material are the ingredients you use to get that texture.
Mesh should rely on texture rather than a high poly count, and the texture should be so tiny as possible (512 better than 4k, when possible)
thus you will be safest about performance matter. PBR helps a lot to get so, since you can mimic many things thru materials, such as elevations (roughness).

This is the sanctum santorum, I have this clear times ago, at least since performance is an issue in reloaded, GG, and now in GGMax so impossible do not to be aware of it, anyway I must admit I enjoy more playing without limitations.

Anyway, the texture should be used wisely, you have to take into account the texel density relative to the mesh surface, to get the accurate texture resolution in any case. (I have some script in 3ds max to calculate the texel density ).
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wizard of id
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 19:00
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Quote: "and the texture should be so tiny as possible (512 better than 4k, when possible)"
No, smaller isn't always better.

To give you an idea. 512 x 512 texture just about covers a 100 x 100 x 100 unit cube, after that the texture becomes visibly pixelated, after which you either need to use a seamless texture which you can use on infinite sized cube.

2K textures works pretty well on up to 300 x 300 x 300 cube after that pixelation starts. With classic reducing the texture size by half anyways, it was better to use a slightly larger texture.

That said it is also how you use the Texture space with a 512 x 512 you can completely unwrap a model like a barrel, but it isn't necessarily true for all assets that needs to be completely unwrapped, meshes sharing texture space no problem.Using tools like quixel and substance painter the model has to be completely unwrapped and not sharing any texture space in order to correctly paint a texture, in some instance when you will be painting a seamless texture like a brick wall mo problem. However you will be sacrificing ability to paint unique dirt maps as the polygons on the share texture space will have some thing generic to avoid a pattern which can be problematic.

Rarely ever use 512 x 512 it is too small for most meshes I make, besides that it is always best pratice to start with the high resolution when painting, after which you can reduce the texture size.

If you have a 4k albedo texture the rest of the AO, surface, metalness and gloss can be reduced in size and that would have no ill effect on rendering and make up for the memory usage.Pending the uv layout and workflow and the actual asset smaller isn't necessarily better, not every thing is going to use seamless textures, but not every model needs that much detail. So it really depends what you are doing.
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 20:16
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Good Day All,
I noticed something strange or should I say different when using the terrain tools in max. A Lag in raising or lowering the terrain so when i stop push the mouse to raise the terrain or lower the terrain there is a residually delay has any body else noticed this or is it just me?
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Stefos
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 20:23
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Another day wasted, stops at around the same point!!!!
New install, different HD!!
Someone please help me!
Why does this downloader use al my bandwith and yet take so long to download then fail?
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 20:30
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" Stefos
Do you report it to Github?
Quote: "
No need to report feedback on missing functionality at this stage, but feel free to post any bug reports you have, especially those that crash or freeze, or otherwise prevent you from roaming the software to our Issues Board here: https://github.com/TheGameCreators/GameGuruRepo/issues"
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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 22:16
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Wizard of Id wrote: "With classic reducing the texture size by half anyways, it was better to use a slightly larger texture."


Wait, what? Classic reduces the texture size? Surely that's only if you set dividetexturesize to 2 or more?

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cybernescence
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Posted: 31st Jan 2021 22:49
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Well to me a material isn’t just a collection of textures to cover a part of a model it is also the shader that is applied to those textures in that part of the model.

GG classic only allows one shader for all textures applied even if more than one set of textures applied - being called multi material in this discussion.

So I hope but don’t know that GG max will allow multiple materials per model (when required) but that also means different shaders embedded per material (when required).

Cheers.
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 00:46 Edited at: 1st Feb 2021 00:47
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Quote: "Why does this downloader use al my bandwith and yet take so long to download then fail?"

Could it be your provider ?
Are you capped in any way or have your internet using a metered connection ?
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wizard of id
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 04:33
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Quote: "Wait, what? Classic reduces the texture size? Surely that's only if you set dividetexturesize to 2 or more?
"

Lol I mean you can set it that way
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 11:18
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Just a reminder that I only have time to skim large forum threads these days, so if you have an install issue and cannot find the answer in this thread, please post it on the Issues Board here (we have a few already so you might see if the report is the same as yours and comment in an existing issue instead): https://github.com/TheGameCreators/GameGuruRepo/issues
GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported with bug fixes and functionality additions.

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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 12:11 Edited at: 1st Feb 2021 12:15
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The problem as far as I can tell is with the texturebank, the files marked as uncompressed are not writing correctly, during updating (installing) the files grow to around 24 Meg then reset to zero and then the process restarts over and over again. I left the installer on for hours over night and it got nowhere! I have turned off all security on my computer including antivirus software and firewall.

This has to be personally the worse installer I have ever had to work with!

I need the folder texturebank as a normal download, if I have this on my computer then maybe the rest of the install will finish correctly ! or maybe not! But I have used up so much of my time now this needs to work soon!
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 12:31 Edited at: 1st Feb 2021 12:34
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Quote: "This has to be personally the worse installer I have ever had to work with!"

The Installer is just fine.
Its the download your having the issue with. That's the problem that needs to be ironed out.
So far everyone has been able to download ( despite taking a long time in some cases ) but not locking at 1.6 gig ?
Its a strange one for sure ..
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 13:03 Edited at: 1st Feb 2021 15:19
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@Stefos or anyone else having a similar issue.

I have now installed - uninstalled GameGuruMAX 9 times this last install number 10 i captured on video, granted i have a 1GB connection but to make it fair i altered my bandwidth and took it down to just below 20mbs (which is the UK average).
Even limiting my bandwidth download and install took less then 5 mins!!

What i will say is the uninstaller is not quite right it leaves things behind in \Program Files, try uninstalling all the GameGuruMAX installs you have including previous versions, once unistalled goto the last install location in my case c:\Program Files\ and delete the GameGuruMAX folder.
Either re download the tiny installer or if you already have it run it again it needs to show 5.9GB to download not 1.6GB i think you may have a previous attempt at install and the left over files are confusing the installer.

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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 15:17
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Quote: "try uninstalling all the GameGuruMAX installs you have including previous versions"

Ye thats a good point to uninstall any old Max installations and delete the folders
Thats just something i do anyway so i often forget to mention that.
Also if you do not want to delete your GameGuruApps folder in docs just rename it to GameGuruApps2
It will make a new one
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ChrisFalcon
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 15:19
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Hello all,

Beta 3 ran just fine. Tiny installer installed then this happens:
https://youtu.be/KRxzbpHi42Y

Please help
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 15:22
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@ChrisFalcon please read instructions above especially removing the current folder in Program Files
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 18:20 Edited at: 1st Feb 2021 18:31
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The shortcut created by the tiny installer (image on the left) does not work. The shortcut on the right (with the Launcher.exe, my creation) does work.
Go figure.
The shortcut on the left (the one created by tiny installer) just wants to reinstall the GameGuruMax software, over and over.


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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 19:14
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My shortcut looks like the one on the left and it works fine.
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 19:55
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My shortcut looks like the right (I've not touched anything) and it works ok.

Although M2 you have one shortcut point to GameguruMax.exe and the other point to Gameguru Launcher.exe, therefore they should not be the same shortcut. imho.
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 20:47
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Mine looks like the one on the left and it works fine. The only difference is I've installed it to my C: drive, which is where my Program Files folder is.
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Posted: 1st Feb 2021 22:07
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Just to clarify, do you tell "Left" the pic telling new?
Asking because mine says GameguruMax.exe, being in front of the pics these are on my right, though.
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 00:23 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 00:26
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It seems I had a messed-up install path. I must admit I spent a lot more time then i should have if my brain had not shut-down.
Every thing is now working as advertised.





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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 03:31
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Did install fine, but I like the December build better. I think it had a cleaner looks and a better developing flow, has something been done to AI They all looked a bit stiff?
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 04:46
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Waited almost a year to just get a white screen
Well, I'm disappointed. Struggle to get the update (first install) downloaded

Finally done, and GGM only give a White screen and Exit

My Laptop specs is more than enough
I re-run the update to make sure everything is going good...
i've restart the laptop
I confirm that GGM is using the Nvidia card and not Internal GPU
System Specs

White screen and Exit

What next???, any advice???

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Your mind is the Limit!!!
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DannyD
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 05:06 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 05:31
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1 step closer...
Restart again...
Updater said " Your version up to date"

Click verify again, just to make sure...
Now want to update another file


Try to run GGM again... atleast no white screen anymore.. but almost something.. then exit

Frustrating!!!!!!!

See attachd Mp4 File




Any Advice Guru's???
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 06:44 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 06:50
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Before you try steps below, maybe set vrmode=0 in setup.ini if you not got any vr devices attached. Try firing max again. If no joy still try steps below if you want to.


Ensure windows / gfx card drivers up to date.
I would remove the whole installation, folders and all including the gameguruapps folder in your user folder.
Reboot your pc.
Close any virus checkers. What visual studio c+ redistribs do you have installed? What dotnets do you have installed? When reinstalling max, you get prompted twice where to install, make sure you select the same place. If you have more than one gfx card, make sure the correct one is being used.
Ensure you install directx when prompted.

Can't think of anything else at moment
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 06:58 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 07:00
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@Bored of the Rings
vrmode = 0 didn't make any diffference

Quote: "Ensure windows / gfx card drivers up to date."

Done that...

Quote: "I would remove the whole installation, folders and all including the gameguruapps folder in your user folder."

Might be the last option. took for ages the first time

Quote: "Reboot your pc."

Done that a few times

Quote: "Close any virus checkers."

Uninstalled AVG, just Windows defender

Quote: " What visual studio c+ redistribs do you have installed?"

VS 20-19 Community version installed

Quote: "When reinstalling max, you get prompted twice where to install, make sure you select the same place."

Checked that the first installation

Quote: "If you have more than one gfx card, make sure the correct one is being used."

The frist thing I checked


Quote: "Ensure you install directx when prompted."

Never asked for DX install

Thanks for the advice BOTR...
Nothing is impossible,
Your mind is the Limit!!!
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 07:16 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 12:18
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No problem, sorry it must be frustrating. Do you have dotnet 3.5 installed. Not totally sure if max requires it but Its still needed for a lot of programs still. I have most of the c+ distribs but would be good if tgc advised what is required on that front. You stated visual 19 installed, I meant Microsoft redistributables not the dev application. I have Vs 2005, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2015-2019
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 08:47 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 08:50
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the attached .txt file shows what dlls/exes max uses for anyone that is having problems running the app. I used process explorer to obtain the list. handy tool

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/process-explorer
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synchromesh
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 10:32
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Personally i would uninstall ( delete all folders ) reboot and try again from scratch.
Annoying i know but worth another go.
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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DannyD
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 11:48
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Redist List.
VS C++ 2005, 2008, 2010,2012,2013, 2015-2019 x86 and x64

I've delete everything and did a re-install... faster than before, but still the same problem....Startup and quit....

I will follow your DLL list and see if I can pickup some missing dll's

Thanks again BOTR...

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mikeven
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 12:10
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Hello,

I want to share my first test with GG Max build 2021-Jan-29.
Secured link to my OneDrive : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjokN1FU3jK1lTIblNPklc8vic2W?e=p5Dids

Thank for watching.

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Belidos
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 12:11
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Quote: "My Laptop specs is more than enough
I re-run the update to make sure everything is going good...
i've restart the laptop
I confirm that GGM is using the Nvidia card and not Internal GPU
System Specs"


Out of interest DannyD, which NVidia card do you have?
Primary Desktop:
i7 7700,k NV1070 8GB, 16GB 3200mhz memory, 1x 2TB Hybrid, Win10.
Secondary Desktop:
i5 4760k, NV960 2GB, 16GB 2333mhz memory, 1x 2TB Hybrid, Win10.
Primary Laptop:
i5, NV1050 4GB, 8GB memory, 1x 1TB HDD, Win10.
Secondary Laptop:
i3, Intel 4000 series graphics, 6GB memory, 1x 500gb HDD, Win8.1.

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DannyD
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 12:41
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@Belidos
MSI Gaming Laptop GF65
NVidia Geforce 1660ti (Updated to latest Drivers)
64g Mem
2 x 1TB SSD
i7 3.6ghz 8 core

All previous alphas runs perfect
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DannyD
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 13:07
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@Bored of the Rings

My hero for the next 48 hrs.....hahahaha.... thanks mate

After installing Dot.net 3.5 (Found an offline installer on Sourceforge), GGM start up

Will start testing....

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Your mind is the Limit!!!
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 13:11 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2021 13:13
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@DannyD-I thought it might be that (actually you install it via program features within Windows-see pic below) , most users do forget to install it in Win10 and a lot of apps still depend on it. It's the first thing I had to install on my new laptop some days ago before trying to run MAX. Glad it sorted now.

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DannyD
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2021 13:33
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Stupid me... never look there....
Anyway.. GGM start-up.. will play tomorrow sometime

Thanks again.. appreciate BOTR
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Stefos
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Posted: 4th Feb 2021 15:09 Edited at: 4th Feb 2021 16:16
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I uninstalled all GameGuru Max from my computer, I created a fresh install, again the same problem when installing the texturebank files.
this file "terrain cracked mud_color (uncompressed)" gets to about 27 Megs or so then resets to zero!!! Some of the smaller files also do this but they do seem to work out after the installer has had a few goes at it, but not "terrain cracked mud_color (uncompressed)" Can I get the folder "texturebank" as a separate download???
Please note I reported this to github about 4 days ago but have had no reply!
Please send me the texturebank folder

ADDED NOTE:
I have also just tried the install on a second computer, same results!!!! Now how can that be the case?
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 4th Feb 2021 15:46
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Quote: "Please send me the texturebank folder"


I doubt that will happen
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Posted: 4th Feb 2021 15:52
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New version tomorrow, maybe that will fare better. Unless it needs the original to update. Plus, I wouldn't worry too much, at the moment its still very WIP. Your not missing out on much yet

I haven't had any issues with installing apart from speed and that is down to the internet connection. I haven't managed to make a standalone work yet though, just a white screen (seems to be a common complaint) and then exits after a second or two. Older demos ran fine (mostly) although I did see the same issue on occasion.
SPECS: Ryzen 1700 CPU. Nvidia 970GTX. 16 Gig Memory. Win 10.
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