3rd Party Models/Media Chat / Wizardofid's media 4 (2019)

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wizard of id
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Posted: 21st Feb 2019 19:03 Edited at: 21st Feb 2019 19:04
Quote: "I didn't mean to offend you, so if I have, I apologise. It's just that your previous post was all about how you would have liked to reduce the poly count further. From what I could see, the obvious place is in the little details...like those side panels with handles.

Quote: "Side panel with handles is 230 polygons"


All I was saying was you could, if you wanted, economise a bit on the parts of the model that will only ever occupy a few pixels of screen space. You wouldn't put a 4K texture on something the size of a cigarette packet in-game, so why devote 230 polygons x 8 to something that will be practically indistinguishable from something lower poly.

Or, to put it another way, yes it is nitpicking to agonise over the polycount on such a small bit of the model, you might only save 50 polygons, but every poly you save could then be spent making those cylinders look less like Smartie tubes

Didn't realise you work in DBO directly, I now understand why LOD is not an option for you. I think the jury is still out on the merits of LOD. I like using it, I've only just learned how to, but what you gain in performance due to drawing fewer polygons you lose in memory having to load the LODs in the first place. I'm still experimenting.

Anyway, like I said, no offence intended, it's just one artist's subjective view of another (highly-respected) artist's work.

AE"

The jury isn't out on LOD.Rolfy will pretty much tell you exactly the same, if you don't need LOD don't use it.LOD is useful for large objects, it's rather pointless for small objects or lower polygon models.There is no need for it.

As a artist I also have to consider how objects will be used, the bombs crates ect, some thing that will be scattered within a level often grouped together, because the objects are small they will be out of the camera view quite quickly any ways. Which makes LOD irrelevant, which makes it better to have a lower polygon model.

Unfortunately 4K textures are the norm and majority of the cold war DLC is 4K texutres even on smaller objects.Cigarette packs will likely be at least 2k these days(There is a very good reason why video games these days are 40 odd gigs, secondly some engines employ a neat little trick which gameguru doesn't do dynamically is changing texture resolutions based on camera distance.).Video memory all things considered 4gig is pretty much the standard for mid and lower range cards, high end all have 8gb or more memory.The bigger problem is wasting atlas space unnecessarily.In the case of the ULC loader you could probably do it with 1024 texture however as a result of using PBR shader, texture pixelation is the end result, so 4K texture is needed so you can walk right up to the object, without any major pixelation.

Lee wants all models to have AO map that actually means you can't stack UV maps which means faces needs to be individual and spread over the atlas to calculate AO map correctly or else you end up with shadow errors.

I don't simply start making a model, actual research is done references collected, pending the model, will it be reused in the level or only useful for a singular use, then the polygon count is decided on and what will be reasonable.So what if it looks like a smartie tube.




The MK39 is 8900 odd polygons my budget for that model was actually 7.5k, so decided much rather to spend the extra detail else where on the model like the retention brackets, the wheels, the special pins, the bendy bit that holds the MK39 in place, it's pretty darn close to the actual MK39.Because I spend more of the polygon budget then intended, I did forgo certain little things, that wasn't going to make a difference visually.Ask any professional 3D artist working with a realistic polygon budget is the best thing you can EVER do, you are FAR FAR more inventive and use polygons with far more caution.

Just because some thing should have a bolt doesn't necessarily mean you must have have a bolt you should put one there just for the sake of the visuals.3D modeling is interpretative and imaginative work, there is no rule set that says if a span bridge has 1 million bolts it should have the same amount in the actual model.In real life that bridge needs those 1 million bolts to stay in place and stop it from collapsing.

A 3D model doesn't require real life engineering to keep it afloat or in place, so you don't need it nor is is practical, however this is where normal painting and extra smaller cheap details and texture come in and allow to make a more passable and and closer to the real life things you are trying to model.

However normal painting has it's limitation.In the case of the handles it was done because it was cheap, and because of the tube angle meaning that it wouldn't be the straight 90 degree angle and would actually be a visual detractor even with a normal painted plate.The plate is there for a practical reason.


I have done 10000's of models, also worked on various DLC's, I did the original Death Valley DLC, while that is dated now, the new cold war DLC, also did various work on some of the other DLC's, large amount of default content in gameguru AGK models, as well as various models for RPG world.So have a massive repertoire of commercial models release, so without blowing smoke, I pretty much the only artist that have pretty much majority level construction kits on the store and in DLC's, experience gained and improvement over years and constant improvement speaks for it self. Model wise, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck then it's likely a duck.Which is why I said nit picking for the sake of nit picking.

Why do I have a thread then, well some take interests in modeling process, without ever posting any thing, and enjoy the viewing the whole creative process.I also create threads for my self it's a good way to track of my own progress.However every now and then it attracts attention in the way of critique, while I have no problem with it specifically, not a single of my modeling thread posted expressly asked for critique and ignore it any ways.In this case however warranted a reply, as I don't need to educated in 3d modeling, I have a good handle on it, know exactly what I want, how to model it and have the completed projects that backs up the rather arrogant claim.

A post like the one above usually starts a whole argument never ends well, for neither the OP the poster. So let me nib it in the butt, do it your way, quite happy to do it my way, exactly the way I want it.Don't like it keep it to your self.While extremely rude, my apologies, you get my point of view and how I feel about it.Yes it's unnecessary to throw in all that bits about completed projects but seems to be the only way to get the message across, I am not posting to get assistance or criticism.I think it's also the reason why some of the other artists actually just post threads on the completion of projects, they don't need or want the criticism.Should you wish to continue I quite happy to do the same or not all, makes no difference to me.

Thanks. !
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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 21st Feb 2019 21:06 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2019 11:48
That...was quite a reply. OK,

wizard of id wrote: "Cigarette packs will likely be at least 2k these days"

You may be right if we're talking about AAA titles but, as you so eloquently put...

wizard of id wrote: "Gameguru isn't Unity nor unreal"

...so I don't think many users would thank us for spending so much texture budget on tiny objects. Still, each to their own I guess, and I'm totally with you on mastering textures in 4K, even for small objects. I just tend to down-res them a bit during the conversion to .dds.

wizard of id wrote: "some engines employ a neat little trick which gameguru doesn't do dynamically is changing texture resolutions based on camera distance"

Curious, because I was led to believe in this thread that Game Guru does support mipmaps as standard. It even generates them automatically, allegedly.

wizard of id wrote: "I don't simply start making a model, actual research is done references collected pending the model, will it be reused in the level or only useful for a singular use, then the polygon count is decided on and what will be reasonable."

I never implied you didn't do your due diligence - you obviously do invest a great deal of time up front collecting references and planning your models, as should any decent 3D artist.

Quote: "Ask any professional 3D artist working with a realistic polygon budget is the best thing you can EVER do, you are FAR FAR more inventive and use polygons with far more caution."

And that's exactly why I use polygon budgets too - I guess I just set my sights a lot lower because it's Game Guru.

You were doing well up to this point, and then it all went South...

I won't bother to pick apart what ultimately ended up as a six paragraph rant about how great you are and patronising me for daring to express an opinion. And yes, you do invite the potential of critique by posting on this forum, that's the whole point. If you're looking to track your progress without fear of criticism, I suggest setting up a blog - somewhere you can censor and moderate the comments you don't like. But the thing is, I didn't even really rip into your work, I just questioned your motives a bit and when I thought I'd offended you, I backed off and apologised. In response, you've just launched into a tirade of arrogant firebombing over basically nothing.

wizard of Id wrote: "While extremely rude, my apologies, you get my point of view and how I feel about it."

You can't just spent six paragraphs ripping into someone and then say, "my apologies"; that's like me saying, "no offence, but you're a [insert a string of insults here]. "My apologies" doesn't nullify the insult, or the hurt caused.

You'd do well to remember that this forum is a public place and differences of opinion come with the territory, as do questions, criticisms and praise. You can't have one without the other. Anyway, we've wasted enough of each other's time writing these replies so, like you say, let's *nip it in the *bud and get back to modelling.

AE
wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2019 06:39
This is me ignoring you, quite simple really. Thanks !



Started with the Sa10 grumble block out, will be doing the cab part last, imported AI and a car from gameguru, found a reference picture with some one close by the SA10 to get some idea of the wheel base an height. Width is slightly off needs to be ever so slightly wider then the car. But a decent start for the block out. I couldn't find a reference picture for the under carriage so will have to improvise there.

Definitely looking forward to this, going to be fun figuring things out.



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wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2019 08:00
Started off with wheels for the under carriage, wheel looks good, but will need to reduce the polygon count on that to about half. Failing that I would need to try another design gives me a rough idea to work with at least, Next is the wheel axle, shaft ect. While this particular truck has wish bone suspension I won't be adding that, it's unnecessary so will need to do some thing to hide that fact.

So will need to improvise here a bit, already have an idea or two in mind to attempt
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Belidos
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2019 08:09 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2019 08:14
Quote: "You can't just spent six paragraphs ripping into someone and then say, "my apologies"; that's like me saying, "no offence, but you're a [insert a string of insults here]. "My apologies" doesn't nullify the insult, or the hurt caused. "


Absolutely agree. I don't generally buy your models anyway, they're just not up to scratch for my vision, that's not to say they're not good, just not the style i like. However i do buy all of TGC's DLC's because i'm a completion and i like to have all the official content. Now you have publicly spouted such sheer obstinate arrogance on a public forum, knowing that you are an "official" artist for TGC, and therefore what you do reflects on them, i will no longer be buying any more DLC's released, simple "thanks for the suggestion but i'm happy my way" would have taken nothing from you and gone a long way towards pleasing people, but your ungracious tirade towards possible customers for your product has not only cost you revenue, but the company you are contracting for, well done.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2019 09:50
Under carriage idea works will need little more tweaking and more detail, had to work a bit on the tubes as they form part of the main back body.Next is the supports for the under carriage.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2019 14:57
I can't get a decent full view of the hydraulics system for the launcher platform. Only getting bits and pieces, so not particularly fond of the retention brackets any ways. So will be doing some thing else for the clamps and improvise.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2019 20:07
Front cab blockout added, scale needs to be adjusted a bit, But getting there, off for the weekend, might do a quick session or two over the weekend, but I want to stew a bit. I like imagining stuff and construct things in my mind a bit, found it helps the flow a lot.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 24th Feb 2019 19:03
Did a quick session this evening, started with the front cab detail.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 25th Feb 2019 15:50 Edited at: 25th Feb 2019 16:00
Light fixtures added.
Engine bay and top cover shaped.
Bumper shaped.
Few other bits and bobs added.

Another day or two shaping, a day for the UV map, and 2 or 3 days for the normal part. About 24 hours+ so far.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 26th Feb 2019 05:50
Close to 18K in polygons, and still have a fair bit left to do, so will be spending some time to see where I can claw back some polygons. I converted the missile tube to a single mesh this morning this added a fair amount of extra polygon will have to make a plan there.

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Posted: 26th Feb 2019 13:03
Wow - just plain nasty...............................
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Posted: 26th Feb 2019 14:17
Almost there.A simple hydraulic push arm has been added, while it wouldn't work in a real life environment based on the placement, it is nestled in the guts of the SA10 so shouldn't pose a problem.

All that is left to do now is little details here and there, currently at 20K odd polygons so have another 2-3K polygons to play with.Progress is going rather sweet, if time permits I would like to add the complete S300 system, which contains a radar vehicle and a control station vehicle.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 26th Feb 2019 17:45
Quick test without normals or proper UV map, did it just to get some idea, of what needs to be separated and a different colour.

Cameo flavor is okay, it will present much better with the missile tubes being a singular shade of green, as well as the wheel.Obviously as a test there are lots of little seam errors.

So this will hopefully present better went the uvmap has been correctly mapped.There are actually a few different color scheme for the SA10, so a few variations would be relative quick and simple.

But overall I am pretty happy with it so far, should look even better with the normals painted.

I am done for the day, would rather attempt the UV map early in the morning when nice and fresh.

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Posted: 26th Feb 2019 18:24
Still using XSI, or are you onto Max now?
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wizard of id
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Posted: 26th Feb 2019 19:13
Quote: "Still using XSI, or are you onto Max now?"
XSI all the way, I don't like max all that much, I much rather prefer the 3d level editor layout of XSI, far more intuitive from me.Maya and blender layout I also dislike.10 odd years with XSI. Did recently add fragmotion to the mix(allows exporting directly to DBO quite handy when you work with old file formats) and still use lithunwrap for saving out UV maps with outlines, makes it easier to paint normals.

Eventually I will have to move over to some thing new, but it won't be max or maya or blender.XSI still very much relevant regardless of being discontinued the major issue is having file formats that haven't been updated in ages, but that rarely causes issues as you can always run it through newer software and export should there be any issues.



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wizard of id
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Posted: 27th Feb 2019 08:49
Normals going pretty well

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wizard of id
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Posted: 27th Feb 2019 16:08
Texturing progress so far

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wizard of id
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Posted: 27th Feb 2019 19:41
Hated the tire normals, I wish I could add actual tire tread mesh but the polygon costs would have been some stupid.So scoured the web for some tire tread vectors I wish it could have been deeper, but at alas have to make do with what is available it does improve the look 100 fold. Added the first layer of cavity dirt, next up is some scratches and some darker dirt with a slight normal perhaps.Also not entirely happy with the under carriage color
So will be looking into that, so will likely need to change the UV layout and color ID map to accommodate that.

Overall pretty happy so far.

Also fixed up the AO map as it had some artifacts.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 1st Mar 2019 07:45
A quick engine test before I continue, couple of things I am not happy with that I would like to address.



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Posted: 1st Mar 2019 19:04
Made some UV map and normals changes, which meant the sources files wasn't compatible and as a result had to retexture.
It was worth it in the end. Some extra detail really makes it worth it for me.Still a couple of tweaks and paint layers needed, but looks pretty good otherwise.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2019 16:32
Job done ! now for the green version



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wizard of id
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2019 09:03
Lets get ready for war !



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wizard of id
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2019 16:56
Started work on the SA20 Gargoyle radar mobility unit, which is part of the S-300 mobile defense system.
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Posted: 4th Mar 2019 00:48
Vehicles looking good!
wizard of id
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Posted: 4th Mar 2019 16:04
Thanks mr wolf. Had a couple of things to do today, would have liked to be further along, would like to start texturing tomorrow.



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Posted: 4th Mar 2019 17:46
Ek het nou alles op BL 2 hier ge lees, ...... ek kan maar net my kop skud ............
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wizard of id
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Posted: 4th Mar 2019 18:46
Quote: "Ek het nou alles op BL 2 hier ge lees, ...... ek kan maar net my kop skud ............ "
Weet nie of jy vir my kop skud nie of vir ander mense nie. In elke geval pla dit my geen sin nie.

In english I don't know if your shaking your head at me or the other posters, but I have shaken it off and it doesn't bother me.No point in getting excited about it any more, ignoring it does the job.


Any ways went with a cheaper style aerial looks good, just have the side panels left and odds and ends.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 5th Mar 2019 09:02
Sa20 Gargoyle texture wip


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Posted: 6th Mar 2019 09:22
Wasn't entirely happy with the normals so adding a bit more detail, also made some UV map fixes for the cameo looked odd

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Posted: 6th Mar 2019 16:05
All done, Now to animate the radar system


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Posted: 7th Mar 2019 13:26 Edited at: 7th Mar 2019 13:37
I have gone through my lists of assets I want to do.

Huey and Huey corba is next, It's research day so, I will be looking at all possible angles, dimensions and scale, I got some cockpit views, but there are still bits and pieces I still need to get a better view off, so far so good, but so far so good, Will likely be viewing some youtube vids as well this evening, as external view isn't the problem getting a clear view inside is going to be annoying, still pictures are quite annoying, concerning specially when you require a specific view or angle.

Found a link that basically shows every thing I need, it's even close enough so that I can see the materials used and patterns on it.


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Posted: 7th Mar 2019 15:18 Edited at: 7th Mar 2019 15:52
Quick and easy way to do a blockout, is to get a vector outlay, sketch out the basic shape.This is far easier then doing guesstimates based on reference pictures.

Rotoscope function in XSI is damn handy, coupled with curves to mesh feature make it a breeze to create a blockout which isn't not only accurate it is far easier to mesh editing. It also reduces overall polygon count in the long run, now for the fun part.

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Posted: 7th Mar 2019 15:39 Edited at: 16th Mar 2019 10:34
sorry , I meant to edit and add extra comments then couldn't think what I wanted to put. anyway here is the original comment I think.

It's always worth coming back to the GG forums just to see WOI's fantastic models, I have been following the thread for ages and it's inspiring stuff. As an artist (not graphics) in oil, pastel , caligraphy etc, Rolfy, WOI and Graphix + others have given me some inspiration to continue where I left off with creating my own 3D models. I used to use Caligari Gamespace and Truespace attempting to follow the online tuts etc and had some great results. But found it incredibly difficult to use as there are soooo many buttons. Anyway, I digress. Well done WOI
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Posted: 8th Mar 2019 08:35
So after having done a little subdivision, I sliced it in half and now busy with hollowing out the mesh.Would have liked the nose to be slightly larger and the front window frame come more to the sides, it still looks the part and decent.

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Posted: 14th Mar 2019 15:35
Had a few other things to do the last couple of days.But finally got around to redoing the shape and style, much better now. Looking forward to finishing this
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Posted: 16th Mar 2019 09:03
Did the blades as cheap as possible, while still having a believable amount of detail, followed the bell huey scale model style of a few solid bits here and there.

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Posted: 16th Mar 2019 10:34
blooming awesome as usual, sorry I added my comments back in with more text. got sidetracked.
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Posted: 16th Mar 2019 15:54
Your usual high quality work Wiz. No surprises there then

I was working on some SciFi corridors but looking at your work on them I just dumped mine LOL.

Keep up the good work mate.
wizard of id
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Posted: 18th Mar 2019 06:58
Would have liked to have done the cloth for the chairs, but the costs would be too expensive, and there is a bunch more to add and do.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 18th Mar 2019 09:29
Decided what the hell and added the cloth version.I hit on the idea of being able to do it cheap with flat two sided polygons, it works a treat, it ended up costing only 1.5k polygons.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 19th Mar 2019 08:58
Okay so what I like to do before I start each UV map is export a quick AO or color ID map and test every thing is working as intended, and it has the look I want, and wouldn't present badly in game. The texture is quite messy and such it's really just a test bed to to avoid any issues further down the line. Also have to get so specific materials for for cockpit and material layer inside the main cabin, the floor ect.

It gives me a working idea and helps to better visualize the end result.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 13th Apr 2019 09:03 Edited at: 13th Apr 2019 09:04
Sent out the cold war update this week Didn't include the huey as I am still not happy with it, felt like fooling around a bit, so loaded up the old isometric dungeon kit, I think it aged quite well, was fun working with some thing other then FPS or 3rd person.The other reason, why I like top down in gameguru, with a bit of work you wouldn't even be able to tell it's gameguru.

With the cold war update done, scifi textures done, I want to focus on my first love being top down content, I have done the scifi top and the fantasy content, a post apocalyptic/modern top down kit is now on my to do list. I am throwing ideas around over the weekend, on Monday I will start planning and formulating the layout of the new content.






Original video of the isometric dungeon
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wizard of id
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Posted: 4th Jan 2020 19:43
Have been super busy, with other projects and mostly done with the forums.Now that the work on the NDA project is finished for the time being. I also for in part wanted to stay away from the forum for a bit, wasn't happy with what has happened lately, so worth giving things a shot again since things have cooled down a bit.

So have started working on the fantasy content. Spend some time today getting candles into gameguru, required a bit of editing to get the flame image the way I wanted.

Will be sharing some more screenshots of the course of the week. But going to be a fun pack


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bluemeenie195
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Posted: 5th Jan 2020 12:54
Can't wait for your new pack. Always love your models !!
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 5th Jan 2020 16:29
absolutely awesome as usual WOI, not that you need me or anyone else to tell you that.
bought the cold war pack, which is great.

can't wait to see more.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 15th Jan 2020 14:23
Progress so far, needs more clutter and that is next on the agenda.







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MXS
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Posted: 16th Jan 2020 12:41
This is nice I like it. Just what I need. Great work as always.
more than what meets the eye.Welcome to SciFi Summer

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wizard of id
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 08:43
Hi guys. just to let you guys know, I will be replacing and retiring older models packs during the course of the year. They will be replaced with new updated versions, This won't just be a simple texture change, but entirely top to bottom revamp of assets, new assets and new higher quality textures and of course PBR.

I have also completed a few other goodies, because I some times get insanely busy from time to time, I have a bit content to release. Personally I didn't want to swamp with new content all at once, and will gradually release the content, especially during the times I get busy.

List of the content to be released this year.
Cold war pack, ISO metric
Cold war pack, new textured walls
Parts of the Cold War Entity folder, (light sources already there)
The original sewer update, the first one released in 2014
Polygon worlds, Polygon dungeon


In the process of revamping the base model pack, with new assets as well as add expanded assets to the mix, especially decided to redo the corridors with better pillar support.The metal girder support has 15 texture layers.




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wizard of id
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Posted: 4th Mar 2020 07:35
Hi guys

So it has taken a few days to figure out a few things, especially get the max out of 4096 x 4096 texture atlas, add too much and you reduce the over all texture on the atlas. But manage to squeeze as much as I can on the atlas, so that you only have to use 1 texture atlas for these specific corridor sections. The additional main corridors will also only use 1 texture atlas. This will in return greatly improve memory usage.

Use the one texture atlas, I added specific texture maps that will allow creating variations like missing floor tiles and missing ceiling panels.
The light sources, vents are textured directly into the atlas now, Which means less assembly layers. You just have to add the pipe sections and other entity now.

While I have taken the design from the first pack, I made a couple of improvements on the design. One in particular is adding outside polygon faces for better lightmapping, with wall thickness of 5units.

So slowly started making the various straight sections, there is quite a few of them. Then crossjunctions, tjunctions and deadends.


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