Product Chat / GameGuru MAX Alpha Build 2 Released!

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KRivva
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Posted: 28th May 2020 08:59
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90-100 FPS

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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 28th May 2020 09:28 Edited at: 28th May 2020 09:33
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doesn't run on mine just get as per pic attached and then bombs out, not surprising considering my card, but does run the wicked engine from VS2019 no problems, but I will be purchasing a high end card soon (ish).
anyway card at the moment on newPC is GeForce 710, 991 I think is the benchmark, so not very good.
Pc specs in my signature below. 64 bit windows 10, 8 Gb mem. Will see what ambitious September release brings.
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 28th May 2020 09:31
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@Bored of the Rings hello have you tried setting vrmode=0 in settings.ini it may help
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Posted: 28th May 2020 09:34
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@GraPhiX-yes twas first thing I did - no joy
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wizard of id
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Posted: 28th May 2020 10:45
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Getting 70FPS

However I decided to have some fun, you can change out the textures, of the demo, I am not a fan of the brick texture in use, so I am going to mess about with it, I want to get a head start with the new texture formats ect.
I can definitely improve the brick texture some more including the rather lackluster concrete texture, definitely happy that I can tinker with the demo, While this quick brick test isn't nearly perfect, I can to learn about the new texture, and get the right amount of ambient occlusion, roughness and gloss, as the new format doesn't make use of metalness like it seems like the previous PBR shader.

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IceVANPS
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:10
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@Lee
@synchromesh

I think I have encountered the problem of gpus where it doesn't work.
I have tested "Wicked engine test" on my gtx950m and all tests work fine except for "Shadow test".
This test freezes and throws the errors "Backbuffer creation failed" and "Main Rendertarget creation failed"

I suspect it is somewhat related to laptop gpus. (m in the gpu nomenclature)
Possible bug with shadow buffers in this type of gpus?

I have also tested "Wicked entine test" with an Intel HD 4600 and everything works correctly. It doesn't perform well but everything works.
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Zigi
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:13 Edited at: 28th May 2020 12:41
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In my opinion it would be useful to share this demo so anyone can try it not just those who pre-ordered considering some of us are holding back with the pre-order exactly because concerned regarding the performance. It would also give a much wider picture how the engine performs on different configs not just with those who pre-order it. Maybe also worth releasing on Steam to draw more attention to GG Max and bring even more testers with more configs, it would be not the first benchmark test for a game engine to be released on Steam though it would be not the most interesting for sure, but could improve in the future with adding more and more content to test. If not Steam then itch.io. Could be also useful to include Low, Medium and High settings so people can try those as well, not everyone is going for the shiny rendering effects and would be satisfied with Low and Medium settings too.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:17
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I Dunno only 8 to 10 fps
Im thinking refund but maybe im expecting to much ..

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Zigi
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:19 Edited at: 28th May 2020 13:21
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Lol. Is this the classic C64 or is it the one Commodore USA was selling with Linux preinstalled few years ago?
EDIT:// Just noticed the title it is C64-X so it is the one sold by Commodore USA. What are the specs?
EDIT2://Found the specs for the C64-X on Wikipedia, not sure how accurate but it should give some ideas:

Intel Core i7 2.2 GHz
16GB DDR3 RAM 1066MHz
1 TB HDD
Nvidia Ion 2 dedicated graphics with 512MB(?) VRAM or Intel HD shared graphics (it is explains the 10FPS in-fact surprising it is runs at all XD)
[MOD EDIT]
Without sending the thread off topic I will answer here
Mine only actually has 4 gig of ram running an I3 4170 and a Intel HD4400 .. Its a self build
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Sanguis
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:48
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180-190FPS

Is it the new Graphic Engine or awesome Shaderwork?
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:50 Edited at: 28th May 2020 12:57
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Should I purchase as Download or Steam Key?
If I get it as download will I get a Steam key later on?

Also am I able to play around with the demo yet like moving stuff around in the editor or is this just a prebuilt demo to test performance?
If its just for testing performance can this be shared publicly?
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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 28th May 2020 12:59 Edited at: 28th May 2020 13:01
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@Sanguis - It is the Wicked engine running the demo level.

@NomaSould - The cellar Alpha is a pre-built demo, you cannot edit it.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:07
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Thanks. How did you purchase, download or steam? surely you should get both when purchasing

I want to purchase when its possible to play around with the demo. If the prebuilt demo can be shared so i can test performance on my PC that would be great. If people are having issues i want to know its actually going to work for me 1st.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:11
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@Nomad Soul
Either the Steam key or download will give you access to the Alpha's in your TGC account.
its just preference really.
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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:12 Edited at: 28th May 2020 13:13
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@Nomad Soul - No, if you opt for download you can only get that version, if you opt for steam you only get that version. You will not get both. I opted for download, not sure how the store downloads will link into it though as yet. No issues on my laptop or main pc here.

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12 to 14fps @ 1920x1080
28 to 31fps @ 1280x720

Running in a window of quarter screen size
38 to 41fps @ 1920X1080
58 to 62fps @1280x720
So very fast on Intel UHD620 compared to GG Classic, I was getting 12fps, as Classic can only run full screen.

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100 to 110fps @1920x1080
179 to 192fps @1280x720

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190 to 240fps @1920x1080
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:24
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Ok thanks. sounds a bit strange.
I assume Steam will be the main place for Max like GG Classic was to access all the betas and such.
If I purchase as TGC account download and don't get a Steam key that would be ridiculous unless they are going to keep both in sync.

Hopefully Lee can confirm if the prebuilt demo can be shared for now.
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Fitz marc ade
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:26
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:34 Edited at: 28th May 2020 13:38
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@ Wizard

Quote: " I want to get a head start with the new texture formats ect."


Do we have any information on these new texture formats? I've never heard of them.

also "roughness and gloss," surely there's a mistake somewhere, they're pretty much the same thing, except inverted, you don't use gloss and roughness in the same pipeline because they have the same function, it's usually either met/rough (_gloss in gameguru classic is actually _roughness named _gloss, they already messed up the workflow lol) or spec/gloss almost never a mixture of the two.

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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:41
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Yes, some details on the texture formats and specifications please.
I'm assuming they are using default wicked engine specs?
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wizard of id
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:42
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Quote: "Do we have any information on these new texture formats? I've never heard of them.

also "roughness and gloss," surely there's a mistake somewhere, they're pretty much the same thing, except inverted, you don't use gloss and roughness in the same pipeline because they have the same function, it's usually either met/rough or spec/gloss almost never a mixture."


Yes a quick search. Turned up creating a RGB map from the grayscale information. Whether this is correct I need to research more as well as test out the information. I had a look at the combine texture as has a orange tint of sorts. I sent lee and email with regards to this so I can get more info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQr88Tj1t04
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:52
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What is the model format for Max. will X format still be supported
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:53 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:54
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Quote: "Yes a quick search. Turned up creating a RGB map from the grayscale information. Whether this is correct I need to research more as well as test out the information. I had a look at the combine texture as has a orange tint of sorts. I sent lee and email with regards to this so I can get more info"


Yeah, Lee needs to set out some guidelines and information if he's going to add new texture sets, which he said he wasn't going to do originally because in his words "the texture types and names are already set and it would cause more confusion to change them".

I've asked a few of my friends form various 3D modelling discords and forums, not many of them even know what a surface texture is, but those who have heard of it said it's combined roughness and gloss so the engine can choose which to use, and metal/specular should still be in their own metallic or specular textures separately, whether that's right or not i don't know, because even they had only heard of it and not used it before, but to be honest i think they're just guessing.


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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:55 Edited at: 28th May 2020 13:55
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Quote: "What is the model format for Max. will X format still be supported"


.DBO, .X, .FBX, and .glTF so far apparently, more may be added

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synchromesh
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Posted: 28th May 2020 13:59
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Quote: "If I purchase as TGC account download and don't get a Steam key that would be ridiculous"

Order the steam key then. either way you get the Alpha's.
Its like AppGameKit you get the same choice there .. Some just hate steam so go for the download.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:01
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Quote: ".DBO, .X, .FBX, and .glTF so far apparently, more may be added"

I notice the models in the demo are .OBJ .. Is that also going to be a standard ?
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:05
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ooh he's added .OBJ too, that's good, nice selection of formats

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:05
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ok I will order the Steam key version. Good to hear X files are still supported

Interesting the demo files are OBJ
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:07
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Lee stated that .X is not going away because there are already so many models for GG using that format, it would be a nightmare to change them to bring them into Max, he wants us to be able to drag and drop our models from classic to max (via the entitybank file structure of course) without any hassle.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:08
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These surface textures will be great if they combine all the regular textures into a single texture from a performance perspective but hopefully they won't be too difficult to setup. I've not heard of them before but i don't use modern game engines either.
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:11
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agree with Belidos we need a nice workflow for getting custom assets into Max but it looks to be quite flexible.

Are we still using Bullet for physics and GG Classic AI?
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:21 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:21
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Quote: "These surface textures will be great if they combine all the regular textures into a single texture from a performance perspective but hopefully they won't be too difficult to setup. I've not heard of them before but i don't use modern game engines either."


I agree, but pretty useless if you're combining textures from two completely different workflows into one texture, the redundant data will outweigh the savings by a long shot. I would have understood if it contained AO, metallic, and roughness, but AO, roughness, and gloss makes no sense at all.

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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:24 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:25
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i'm confused by the names. it used to be diffuse map, normal map, specular map and illumination map

so it looks like my understanding of the workflow will need to completely change anyway LOL

and what about tools. how do we even create these new types of textures?
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:37 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:40
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Quote: "i'm confused by the names. it used to be diffuse map, normal map, specular map and illumination map"


You can still use that workflow, but we also now have a PBR workflow we can use, which gives you better quality of textures with more control over which parts look metailic, which parts look rough, which arts look wet, etc.

Check out the Steam guide i made when PBR was added to GameGuru: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1382429965

Quote: "and what about tools. how do we even create these new types of textures?"


Going from the basic route you would make each texture separately then combine them in a graphics program like Photoshop, or Gimp etc.

The more advanced route is to use something like Substance Painter and set up an export preset that exports them already combined.

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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:42 Edited at: 28th May 2020 15:10
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FYI, Lee misspoke in the video about the new surface texture - it's AO, Roughness, and metalness (not gloss). These are simply grayscale images packed into the RGB channels of a single texture. In modern 3D texturing software you can usually set it up to do this for you, or you can do it manually in Photoshop, Gimp, etc.
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:42
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is there a good free alternative to substance painter. I hate the annual subscription model for tools software.

I used to use crazybump or things like that which created the other textures from the diffuse texture. i would hope there is something which can also combine them now too.
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:43
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OMG its Bond1

Glad to see your still around
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:45 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:45
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Quote: "FYI, Lee misspoke in the video about the new surface texture - it's AO, Roughness, and metalness (not gloss)"


Oh thank [insert deity here] for that!

Which channel is which? I'm assuming it's Red: AO, Green: Roughness, and Blue: Metalness ?

Oh and good to see you about mate.

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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:47 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:48
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Quote: "is there a good free alternative to substance painter. I hate the annual subscription model for tools software."


Haven't used it, but ArmorPaint is supposed to be good: https://armorpaint.org/ i don't know if you can export combined textures though, but it's simple enough to do it in a free program like GIMP and Paint.net

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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:47 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:50
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Belidos can you give quick tutorial on how to create these 3 textures and combine them?

I don't understand how Lee's texture ended up being orange.
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:51
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Quote: "Which channel is which? I'm assuming it's Red: AO, Green: Roughness, and Blue: Metalness ?"


Yep that's it!
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:51 Edited at: 28th May 2020 14:57
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If i get time at the weekend i'll look into it, i haven't done it myself yet, but i have an idea of how to do it because i've had to do it in the past for terrain textures (terrain needs to have it's secular texture combined into it's diffuse textures alpha channel). To be honest though i've only ever done it using Substane Painter which is as easy as assigning a box to a texture and exporting, i'm not sure how to do it manually, but i've been told it's easy, so maybe someone else who has done it manually in GIMP or PS or Paint.net (or maybe even one of each ) can throw up a quick guide?

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cybernescence
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:54
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Looks SURFACE is texture channel packed as per the video:

R = AO
G = Roughness
B = Metalness

Possibly even the ROUGH textures have channel packing too.

This probably isn't necessarily final, so wouldn't rush to copy, probably best to wait for Lee to state how it will be tackled.





Cheers

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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:56
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Quote: "
Looks SURFACE is texture channel packed as per the video:

R = AO
G = Roughness
B = Metalness
"


Great, thanks. Oh forgot to ask, what's the naming convention? texturename_surface ? (at work so can't download the demo)

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wizard of id
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:57
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lol nomad soul, has finally come over to the dark side. Let the modding begin.

So AO roughness and metalness. The YouTube video I linked should then be correct.Was on the right track, great, now to experiment.
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th May 2020 14:58 Edited at: 28th May 2020 15:01
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Quote: "So AO roughness and metalness. The YouTube video I linked should then be correct.Was on the right track, great, now to experiment."


Haha, i knew there was something not right when a professional modeller like yourself was like "wtf?" LOL


Need to be sure of these things as i want to adapt my gameguru texture guide on steam to max and copy it over to the max steam page, if we can start the ball rolling with as much info available as possible it will help build the Max user base.

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Posted: 28th May 2020 15:03 Edited at: 28th May 2020 15:06
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Quote: "I don't understand how Lee's texture ended up being orange."


It's just how the 3 grayscale textures appear as a final image when combined from the RGB channels. The orange color is irrelevant, we are only concerned what is going on in the individual RGB (red/green/blue) channels.

Here is a pic from photoshop showing the individual channels.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 28th May 2020 15:12
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Well it is an annoying extra step now for content. Going to be fun sorting things out.Emailed rick yesterday about the cold war pack if he is looking to have that converted to the new engine, he replied they are only making new content.Considering it is a none exclusive license I will be uploading that to the tgc store then when the time comes, as I have all the source files, including Color ID maps, and raw model, photoshop files backed up. Over 60gig in source files. It is an awesome pack no point letting it go waste, while it will work in max, not sure if the graphics will be the same as with the new format.

It will also give me opportunity to add new things, and perhaps additional texture variations and improvements.

It is doubtful things will change with regards to the surface texture, as they have an artist working on the content. While the shader and stuff might change or get tweaked we can be pretty sure the texture formats is here to stay.
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Posted: 28th May 2020 15:15
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@cybernescence now as u saw the future GG max is there a chance to move your project back here?
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Posted: 28th May 2020 15:22
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BTW I am going to link a neat little app that was written in unity that can create all the textures needed for PBR creation, or just google materialize, texture application. is 100% free and works a treat to get textures rendered if you only have for example the diffuse and normal, it can create all the textures needed, if you tweak the texture map outputs just right, the overall accuracy of metalness and such is pretty on point with a very small margin of error.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 28th May 2020 15:24 Edited at: 28th May 2020 15:28
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Quote: "It is doubtful things will change with regards to the surface texture, as they have an artist working on the content. While the shader and stuff might change or get tweaked we can be pretty sure the texture formats is here to stay."


Not necessarily, Preben has some cool ideas on how the engine can take the individual PBR textures and let the engine combine them into say, SURFACE channel packed format. This would get the best of both worlds - the current format and texture creation workflow would stay the same, the engine would auto pack into SURFACE format (or similar) for the engine to then use (saving run time video memory).

Might not be in their plans now for Sept, but would wait for Lee to confirm - this would be a very neat way of merging the way classic PBR assets are created now with the new channel packed wicked style.

@ osiem80 - probably not as it was mentioned the GG Max shader pipeline will be closed (compiled only) and the source is too far away for me to add in all the extras for the game. Cheers.

Cheers.

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