Product Chat / New Sneak Peek Video #02

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 15:34
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Hi All,

New GameGuru MAX sneak peek video released, this time looking at the terrain controls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziP8Mxf9aCs&list=PLE-iCIs1FHEF8GIZftThVIRcAs1wJwGMg&index=2
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synchromesh
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 15:39
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The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 15:57
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I like it, very impressive Lee , can't wait to see more....
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 16:00 Edited at: 13th Feb 2020 18:04
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Cant wait to see the new Terrain System but certainly love how much better to control it is …
And Weather .. Excellent
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KeithC
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 16:02
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Pretty neat. A few quick ones:

- Will there be the ability to combine different vegetation types (ie; several types of grass, bushes and shrubs), into a single brush stroke (with variables)?

- Will there be any "smart feature" that will negate any vegetation that was previously placed, when say a building asset is placed on top?

- As far as resizing the brush when painting or modeling terrain; will you allow for the mouse zoom wheel to increase/decrease the brush size, on the fly?
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granada
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 16:10 Edited at: 13th Feb 2020 16:46
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Interesting, looks fast to

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Corno_1
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 17:10
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Does the rain react on buildings? I hope so
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 17:32
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I think it will really shine when we eventually drop in a new terrain system. As for specific features (and learning from the past) I think I will play it safe and say there are no plans for anything other than throwing away the old one and dropping in a new one which will be no worse than the old one, and perhaps a little better at painting the terrain.
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 17:53
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It looks very good, i do question however the controls as you have implemented them now for editing the terrain.
It is quite common to have the right mousebutten to either replace with a specific height value, or to lower the ground.
It seems like something to become annoying if you have to choose between either raising or lowering the terrain with the left mouse button. Middle button remains for smoothing?
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 18:29
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I want to see how new water system will work.
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 18:58 Edited at: 13th Feb 2020 19:00
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yes, totally, totally - Earthling45...
a video to show the menu-- but NO new features... not much info then.

My questions about multi-grass, live day-to-night shadows and lighting,
additional brushes, water level options, brushes, shortcuts, etc
Like other above, Have NOT been answered!!

I hear Lee @ 2:50 "This is the old controls, and we MAY be adding some more
features later // no plans for anything other than throwing away the old one
and dropping in a new one..."

Are there more than one grass at a time available?
Is there going to be changing day-to-night added??
No more shortcuts?!
Water at different levels??
How about a level-to grade brush that will level like a tractor will grade a road,
depending on the angle the brush is set -- know how a ROAD GRADER works?
It follows the hills and dips, but only levels on direction!
[video=youtube]3gVy58EhlX8[video=youtube]
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 19:29
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A road Dozer is more like the idea about making roads up into mountains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmivI5qLu9E
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 19:34
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No plans to add more than one grass type (we have not completed the research on our new grass system yet), no plans to add day/night cycles, shortcuts will remain, but you now have buttons as an extra option, no plans to have water at different levels, just the water height you have now, no plans to add grading tools to sculpt roads. Sorry to sound negative, but I get into trouble when I promise things
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 19:43
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Lee, I (we) appreciate your response. That's the main thing.
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 19:59 Edited at: 13th Feb 2020 20:19
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A possible solution for different grass painting and road and fence drawing:

The entity needs 3 modes:

Place / Draw / Spray

Draw being the new mode which allows you to hold down the mouse button and draw entities on the map when you move the mouse without it overlapping constantly. Relies on what of the 3 grid modes you are on. EBE has something similar which allows you to draw walls with ease. Adding this single "draw" feature along to entities would even solve the issues with building interiors and exteriors from parts of complex geometry. Whereas without the draw mode we have so many overlap issues or it takes WAY too long to build anything cause you are constantly clicking the mouse down instead of holding.

'Place' would be your standard way of placing entities. The 'Spray' is when you press "I" (currently).

While this solves issues with entity structure components, fences and roads, you would then just need grass patches entities to do the multiple grass painting. I've made a few with the stock even.

While the draw mode would be linear, it would be better than the option of nothing we have for now but for clicking constantly while in grid snapping mode 2.
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jono gamer
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 20:40
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New controls looking great and a lot easier to work with!

For the new terrain system have we had any confirmation that we'll be able to change its size and/or have a bigger total map size or indeed if we'll be able to turn terrain off completely for indoor levels.

Quote: "No plans to add more than one grass type (we have not completed the research on our new grass system yet), no plans to add day/night cycles, shortcuts will remain, but you now have buttons as an extra option, no plans to have water at different levels, just the water height you have now, no plans to add grading tools to sculpt roads. Sorry to sound negative, but I get into trouble when I promise things "


@Lee, I take it this isn't these things being ruled out entirely and only in relation to the initial September release? If so, is there going to be somewhere where we can see what the features list is, the priorities etc in a transparent and official way after the release in September or is it going to be like GG classic where there are long spells of no new features and the occasional bug fix?

Between discord and the various threads here its hard to keep track of whats been confirmed but thought this would be a good place to ask since its terrain related!

Thanks!
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 21:09
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@ Lee
Quote: "The only TTS we have are the ones installed by Microsoft (basically one male and two female for the English ones)."

Any chance to use customized voice files?
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OldFlak
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 22:22
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Looks pretty smooth and fast to me - and not even 64 bit yet - Nice!

And didn't see any banding on the terrain paint demo there - that is great.

Quote: "No plans to add more than one grass type (we have not completed the research on our new grass system yet),"

Lee it may be useful info for you if you picked cybernescence brain, he has made many amazing enhancements to Classic in his branch for Cogwheel Chronicles, one of which is multiple grasses

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MooKai
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 22:23
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Maybe add some new....
- skyboxes
- some new HD ground textures
- some new HD grass
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 22:28 Edited at: 13th Feb 2020 22:29
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Quote: "Lee it may be useful info for you if you picked cybernescence brain"

That would be cool ..
And " AmenMoses " would be worth serious consideration … My God that man can script !!
Some of the stuff he gets GG to do is staggering .
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 13th Feb 2020 22:39
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"AmenMoses" - "Amen" = Egyptian creator god, "Moses" = Egyptian for "Son of".

It was right there for all to see.
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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 08:05
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@Lee

Quote: "No plans to add more than one grass type (we have not completed the research on our new grass system yet)"


Yet you are advertising that Max will have multiple grass types right there on the front page of the GameGuru Max website!



I really hope this was just an oversight and you just didn't realise that not only had it been promised, but advertised officially too. If it isn't just a mistake ... well ... it's things like this that cause the community to complain about backpedalling and lack of trust.

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cybernescence
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 08:33
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@Lee - you should demo the filters both for selecting assets from folders but also from those in left panel once in scene.

Sounds like such a simple thing but it is a huge improvement over current capability. People will find assets they have long forgotten about as just typing in ‘table’ for example brings back any folder or asset with that word in. Again sounds like a minor feature but hugely useful

I’m assuming that part of code is same as was before it went closed, sorry if it’s gone now or replaced

Re terrain: i guess how large a terrain will depend on what approach is chosen, but so you know performance wise, classic can easily handle the existing terrain system at 16 times current area.

Re grasses: Sounds like a whole new approach for MAX. So you know for classic there is a huge performance hog with the code that repeatedly scans to remove grass on steep slopes. Take that out and grass performance much improved though up to user not to paint on mountains.

Cheers.

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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 08:44
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Quote: "Yet you are advertising that Max will have multiple grass types right there on the front page of the GameGuru Max website!"


Lee as stated that here on the forums he will not 'promise' anything anymore, it is a forum for discussions 'hypothetical' or not,
anything on the 'official' press release or TGC website will be available.

Lee will no longer commit to 'ideas' and will listen to what the community has to say, his best endeavour is the best we can hope for.

Anything said on the forums is just discussions no promises or Trojan horses, this is a place for throwing ideas around not for 'nailing' someones hat on!
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 09:24
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Quote: "Lee as stated that here on the forums he will not 'promise' anything anymore, it is a forum for discussions 'hypothetical' or not, "


Belidos was referencing what is on the official GameGuru MAX page where it clearly states, "multiple grass forms". That's not a forum post, but an advertisement on the product page. However, I didn't read "multiple grass forms" as meaning that you can lay down multiple types of grass at the same time, but that GameGuru MAX would deliver multiple types of grass that you could choose from (like we already have in Classic). So, the wording seems to be a bit ambiguous. But if TGC is not going to be offering more than one grass type at a time, then it might be safer for them to remove the wording from the MAX promo page, imo.
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 09:38
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Quote: "That's not a forum post, but an advertisement on the product page."


i know it is and yes multiple grass types like we already have hence why i said:

Quote: "anything on the 'official' press release or TGC website will be available."


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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 09:48 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 09:51
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Quote: "i know it is and yes multiple grass types like we already"


That's not how i read it. Grammatically if they had meant the same as we have now, they should have written "multiple selectable grass forms" not "multiple grass forms for realistic ground coverage", otherwise it is ambiguous and misleading.

It's ambiguity like that which they really need to watch out for. I'm not usually one for correcting grammar, but this is an international community that is quite passionate, so in anything official they really have to get their wording spot on to avoid arguments.

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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 10:05
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I agree with Belidos, it does read as having the ability to paint multiple grasses on the terrain, I hope Lee will reconsider that one. Scalable tree rendering is another interesting addition there too.
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 11:14 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 13:34
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It also looks like MAX paints the grass much better, a welcome improvement

The weather tools look like a cool feature.
- Does the engine block the weather out when you go inside a building or do we still do that in lua?
- And can we use custom images for it?

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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 11:18
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Quote: "It also looks like MAX paints the grass much better, a welcome improvement "


Absolutely agree there, being able to paint in the editor and actually see it is a huge improvement, even if there are no other changes this is 110% better than it was.

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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 11:21
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Yeah, and great to see that big yellow circle gone too!

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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 11:33 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 12:27
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Quote: "That's not how i read it. Grammatically if they had meant the same as we have now, they should have written "multiple selectable grass forms"

The more sensible thing would have been to just ask ..
When you state Multiple grass forms do you mean what we have ( various selectable ones )
or can we have multiple grass forms in our maps ..

How easy is that rather than trying to discredit the process once again !!
At this rate maybe its better Lee doesn't post anything at all …
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 11:46 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 11:49
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English is a wonderful language. You can say one thing and mean another. You can say something that is absolutely precise or something that is ambigous, vague, or in fact means the exact opposite.
The trouble is, with so many words being subtly nuanced one way or another dependent upon context, reader's expectation, hopes or viewpoint it is pretty much impossible to say or write something for mass consumption that cannot, or will not be misinterpreted.
Eventually we end up in heated debates about the meaning of individual words in a whole chapter.

Lawyers and barristers make their living out of it. So do politicians and bureaucrats.
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 11:49 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 11:49
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Quote: "The trouble is, with so many words being subtly nuanced one way or another dependent upon context, reader's expectation, hopes or viewpoint it is pretty much impossible to say or write something for mass consumption that cannot, or will not be misinterpreted."

And that is why we "ASK" if we are not sure … Not shoot first and ask after
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synchromesh
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 12:02
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@Lee
I have been asked a good question though which I do not have the answer to.
If I am able to load my old maps into Max how will it find my assets, DLC's etc that are in GameGuru ?
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Earthling45
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 12:30
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It's the old terrain which is being displayed, so i patiently await what the new terrain will be like in terms of visuals and possibilities.
In previous years i've always used editors with which you had the ability to add polygons to expand terrain and only have a high polygoncount on areas where needed for height differences and of course painting.
In GG there is already a terrain with lodstages which is quite different from what i was used to but it is quite easy with also the waterplane already present.
But now that i've found and am learning how to work with the Giants editor, it is simply shocking to be returning to GG because i have no way of replicating what i can do in the Giants editor in a few minutes by using the noise function, the erosion function and slope based painting of multiple textures.
It looks so much better and is so much more fun to do because i can then add multiple grasses and bushes which really makes for a nice lively outdoor environment.


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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 12:55
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If I have to ask the exact meaning of a word, it is most likely because it is not properly expressed or written.
Personally "" multiple selectable grass forms "" I think it would help avoid confusion and misinterpretation.

However we should not lose sight of one of the things one of the most important things of GG, and it allows you to think outside the box. Proof of this is the way in which Ciber builds a GameGuru to suit their needs, and yes I already know it, this is thanks to knowledge, hard work, and the long time spent on the project; But none of this would be possible if the game engine didn't allow it.

The phrase "this cannot be done in Gameguru" is usually only applicable to mortals, like me; But it doesn't mean that it can't be done, it's just that I can't do it.

@ synchro
I recall reading somewhere about GGMax linked to old entitybank, maybe with the idea to make easy search for, and support GG classic maps. Or perhaps I'm wrong here.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 13:00
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Quote: "@ synchro
I recall reading somewhere about GGMax linked to old entitybank, maybe with the idea to make easy search for, and support GG classic maps. Or perhaps I'm wrong here. "

That could be the answer, that would work
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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 13:01 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 13:01
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@Synchromesh, i was asking, that's what my post was, i was pointing out the discrepancy in the hope of clarification, i wasn't not taking a shot, sheesh over react much.

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synchromesh
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 13:08
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Quote: "@Synchromesh, i was asking, that's what my post was, i was pointing out the discrepancy in the hope of clarification, i wasn't not taking a shot, sheesh over react much."

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3com
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 13:25
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I would like a different system to draw water.
I would like for example to use a water zone that allows me to draw for example the river bed by modifying the nodes, as is done with a floor zone for example.

Once the river was drawn, I could press a key and GG would create the hole and the water, applying the same technique that is used with autoflatten but in reverse, instead of creating an elevation in the terrain around the entity, GG would create a hole and fill it with water.

In this way we could create holes in the ground without finding water at the bottom, perhaps an underground passage.
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osiem80
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 13:54
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There should be also a tree painting option, take reference


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Teabone
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 14:01
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Quote: "There should be also a tree painting option, take reference"


This goes back to my earlier post. We have the entity spray mode for that. Of course that still needs tweaking for options to prevent overlap or a way to slow down the spray (might already exist).
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DVader
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 17:18 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 17:19
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Not to bang on about the grass thing, but I also took it as multiple grass types per map as they are advertised as new features. I would probably avoid listing things when they will be basically the same as in GG already. Not knocking TGC, just saying most people will read that and think the same. There's probably a lot of users who never come here to check this sort of thing, for certain most existing GG users.

I can't understand why multiple grass types are so difficult to implement either, not if it is being rewritten. Surely it's just a matter of assigning extra images to each mesh or a bigger atlas image so we can have at least 4. I'm sure a GTX960 should be able to handle that.

Perhaps some of the people who play with GG's source code might know why it isn't possible in GG at the moment? I always thought it was probably down to the minimum spec and so a limited texture size. Oh, or simply the shader itself.
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 17:30
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Ok let me just say that the official word was if you read it carefully

Quote: "No plans to add more than one grass type (we have not completed the research on our new grass system yet), "


The key wording is research!! No promises or ideas are being posted please just let Lee do his thing and we will see what arrives in September, Lee is no longer going to shoot him self in the foot ( this is how I have understood and read the posts I do not work for TGC I am just reading all the posts )
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World Class Multimedia
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 20:17 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 20:32
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I have been pushing for voxel terrain. This way, tunnels, overhangs, cliffs and other impossible terrain sculpting can be done easily - you can literally create a 3D Dig Dug game, flight games with seamless terrains, etc. They work via height maps (greyscale), which are very easy to create - including programmatically - and can be made seamless for endless terrain. They employ very low overhead, so they do not take up much memory and the open-source available options even have LOD. They can look like minecraft or they can look like real terrain - that option is up to you - with a blockiness variable. Stamps are easily used with this kind of system.

And now for some eye candy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfzmcbR1H_0&t=83s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i05Iwce81cg&t=22s

No Man's Sky implements this type of terrain and it's incredibly fun and addictive to use and create with.

Here is a okay video on how to use it in No Man's Sky (go to 1:45 to see terrain editing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDkI3Eq6zfA

This one is kinda cool - No Man's Sky Archaeology (finding stuff underground by digging/mining):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElpdAs0mQQk

I have sent all of this to Lee (through the youtube videos as replies) except the No Man Sky videos - but I did mention that game.

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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 21:34
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This is a vigorous thread, it seems. But that's a dandy thing to see.
All stop, as I was about to comment again on grasses<<=== see the 's'!?
And I get on a bit later than most of ya'all blokes!

Anyway, those are GREAT ideas World Class Multimedia. Maybe
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synchromesh
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 21:46
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Quote: "All stop, as I was about to comment again on grasses<<=== see the 's'!"

Same as Slaps<<=== see the 's'
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UNIRD12B
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 22:01 Edited at: 14th Feb 2020 22:03
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hheheheeh

@AmenMoses

Amon = main Egyptian god--less often also spelled Amen
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Amon
Amen = let it be so - or- I agree ( in Hebrew )

Moses = Pulled from the water.. ( in Hebrew )
According to the Torah, the name "Moses" comes from the Hebrew verb, meaning "to pull out/draw out" [of water], and the infant Moses was given this name by Pharaoh's daughter after rescuing him from the Nile (Exodus 2:10)[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_(given_name)

P.S.....im just peeing on your leg.......

actually i'm quite surprised Belidos didn't jump on it....

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AmenMoses
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Posted: 14th Feb 2020 22:41
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Ever heard of Rameses?

That's an anglicised version of Ra-Moses, i.e. "Son of the god Ra".

Thutmoses? "Son of the god Tut".

The biblical figure Moses has always been a tricky one to explain away as he was supposedly named by Pharoah's daughter so why would she give him a Habiru (i.e. 'slave') name?

Been there, done that, got all the T-Shirts!
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