Product Chat / Shadow Quality?

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imothep85
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Posted: 12th Oct 2017 18:23
do omeone know what pbr/directx 11 is going to change to the quality of lights & shadows?
can we espect something really better and different than the actual poor realistic lights / shadows quality?
GraPhiX
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Posted: 12th Oct 2017 19:37
Lights and shadows are currently being worked on in the BETA and they will be better
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imothep85
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Posted: 13th Oct 2017 08:06
i hpe its going to be a better system than the actual lightmapping
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Posted: 13th Oct 2017 22:02
I've been having issues with distant shadow quality for sometime. Occasionally the shadows will blink.
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imothep85
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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 13:54
by better shadows i was thinking to something like this:

http://www.godisageek.com/wp-content/uploads/RESIDENT-EVIL-7-biohazard_20170127010236.jpg

of course textures/pbr are important, but a good light system too .
synchromesh
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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 15:08
Quote: "by better shadows i was thinking to something like this:"

You mean shadows like that Multi million development above..
Well don't hold your breath or give up your day job... Could be a teeny wait for GG to pull that off
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imothep85
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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 16:22
ot like a multimillion but something close to that realtime render. the guy who developed S2Engine HD is also alone, and the quality is almost the same, so why GG can't reach the same quality?
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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 20:21
different tools, different systems, different goals, different beginnings, and different developers.

Also, when I look on indieDB, I see one S2 engine game and hundreds of FPSC/GG games. There's really not much of a comparison. Please replicate the above "multimillion dollar production" screenshot in S2 engine. Then If you'd like, I'll do it in gameguru and we'll compare.
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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 20:21
Quote: "he guy who developed S2Engine HD is also alone, and the quality is almost the same, so why GG can't reach the same quality?"


Fabio has been working on S2Engine HD a long time,long before he put it on steam.

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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 21:48 Edited at: 16th Oct 2017 22:30
Quote: "the guy who developed S2Engine HD is also alone, and the quality is almost the same, so why GG can't reach the same quality?"


S2ENGINE HD is buggy. It crashes. Its also not optimized currently. Its not quite as stable as GG is right now. GG rarely actually crashes. My understanding is that both engines are 32 bit.
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Posted: 16th Oct 2017 22:56 Edited at: 16th Oct 2017 23:11
Yeah, Game Guru is definitely stable. For me the only time GG crashed was with the Editor\Blending issue we had a while back, but since Lee sorted that GG is once again rock solid.

Shadows like that pic above would be awesome, but as said not likely in GG for a bit..... And I imagine only possible with light mapping the scene, but I can never get light mapping to work 100% myself, always some part of the map that is ruined by the process (probably my models, or ability, or both - lol)

If anyone can get something close it would Bugsy or Wolf.

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synchromesh
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 00:41 Edited at: 17th Oct 2017 01:20
Quote: "the guy who developed S2Engine HD is also alone, and the quality is almost the same, so why GG can't reach the same quality?"

That's actually not a new engine .. Its been around since 2011 to my knowledge ( could be older ) which is a few years longer than GG
The main problem ( apart from the fact its buggy as mentioned ) is that it seems the only person who can make head nor tail of it is the creator..
Even though its been on steam the last year as well nothing has ever got close to being developed so far for some unknown reason not even a good demo ?

So why don't you use S2 - HD then just out of interest ... It seems to tick all your boxes ?
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imothep85
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 16:38 Edited at: 17th Oct 2017 16:40
here a render from s2engine hd, sure its impossible to get this in GG, even with the next update to come


https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17239646_1490918220919607_4094980596629997333_o.jpg?oh=6b89b701ab4f595a7e00b753d27b3fc5&oe=5A760186
Belidos
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 16:43 Edited at: 17th Oct 2017 17:08
Why would you want to emulate that in GameGuru? It looks terrible, did they forget to include normal maps? Where's the actual lighting, it looks very default, just illumination maps on the lights, the contrast is way too low, and where are the shadows? They're way too subtle, and after all this thread is about shadows..

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imothep85
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 16:49 Edited at: 17th Oct 2017 16:50
well i would like to test the lights of GG inside a small corridor like that with the new directx 12, and pbr materials to see the results, just curious about it.
but not sure we can get something "realistic" with gg, also is no options for lens distortions in gg, or default rgb split.
realistic environment, makes games more immersive for the player, instead of a cartoonish environment.
Belidos
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 17:09
At the moment in beta the lighting system is still being worked on, so far the shadows are much better, they seem to be less jagged and more pronounced, but there's a chance things will change even more, i can't really say much more than that. I'm pretty sure once it's finished we should be easily able to create a scene better than the one you have shown from S2.

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imothep85
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 17:31
i hope the lights (spots) in, GG are going to be easy to put in place and select the light target like in 3ds max spots lights
Belidos
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 17:34
I don't think we're going to have different types of lights yet, it's more the quality of light etc. that's being worked on at the moment.

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imothep85
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 17:36
so that eans the actual borring lightmapping system is going to be changed?
Belidos
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 17:44
Not necessarily, we don't know yet, it's the shader integration with DX11 that's being worked on, he's not actually adding anything new, just getting it to work in DX11, there should be improvements like quality of lighting etc. but there won't be any changes such as adding new types of lights, or changing how the lightmapper works, that's not in the scope of the project. One thing that may happen though is the number of dynamic lights that can be active at one time my be increased.

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themegapolice 96
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 19:25
And more performance D:
?
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Belidos
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 19:30
Yes, I haven't tested it extensively, but I'm getting a lot better performance than the live version.

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Teabone
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 19:44 Edited at: 17th Oct 2017 19:47
Quote: "here a render from s2engine hd, sure its impossible to get this in GG, even with the next update to come "


You will be impressed with the new reflective shader visuals with the new update. I can't say much more than that about the update.

Quote: "but not sure we can get something "realistic" with gg, also is no options for lens distortions in gg, or default rgb split.
realistic environment, makes games more immersive for the player, instead of a cartoonish environment."


Lens distortion is not part of the next build. Lee has a whole thread detailing what has/is being worked on. Realistic environments are you talking about objects or lighting or shadows? In the examples you have shown so far, the models are of high detail and do not contain the stock images from GG imported over for comparison. Or vice versa.

Quote: "i hope the lights (spots) in, GG are going to be easy to put in place and select the light target like in 3ds max spots
lights"


The next update does not contain additional lighting objects nor additional editing controls for grabbing lights. Hopefully in the near future.
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Posted: 17th Oct 2017 22:13 Edited at: 17th Oct 2017 22:16
Quote: "lens distortion"

I don't think lens distortion adds realism myself.
If I was standing in a hallway and the door looked bent like that, I would be off to get my eyes tested, or be fearing I was about to have some kind of medical emergency.

If health was not the issue, then a prompt call to the builder would be in order to insist on replacing the door with quality materials instead of bent stuff.....

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imothep85
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Posted: 18th Oct 2017 09:42
it addd realism but in one way, it looks like if the player is looking trought a camera
Belidos
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Posted: 18th Oct 2017 10:05 Edited at: 18th Oct 2017 10:06
To be honest, the shadows and lighting aren't what makes that serene look realistic (it doesn't really, it looks way too washed out, and reflective, not to mention the fish eye lens) is the models. Although they don't seem to have very good normals and height mapping, they are good quality models, with the right proportions and good texturing, with better lighting and shader usage that scene could actually look a lot better. As it stand, with the PBR being added to the system, we will soon be able to use high quality models like that, and i do think that once we have the PBR system and DX11 added we will be able to produce something that compares, even without the bells and whistles such as directional lighting (which i do agree we do need).

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synchromesh
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Posted: 18th Oct 2017 10:54 Edited at: 18th Oct 2017 10:55
Quote: "I don't think lens distortion adds realism myself."

Unless all humans see that way its not realistic at all to be honest.
If you do then it may be a good time to see an optician
Special effects that's all ..
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imothep85
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Posted: 18th Oct 2017 11:54
yeah what i mean its like if we are looking the environment trough a camera lens, i dont have that distortion in real life lol.
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Posted: 18th Oct 2017 15:56
A lens distortion is a very specific effect. I don't think that's on Lee's list. However it sounds more like a screen shader. There are a few out there already for Game Guru. A lot of which people are not aware of.
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Posted: 19th Oct 2017 09:52
@imothep85 : Can you send me a standalone of the S2 game you created, as I think I can achieve the shadows and reflections shown thereby increasing the lightmapping resolutions combined with the PBR texture system I'm working with. I can also test performance side by side too. It won't be identical as I will have to use stock models but we can have a stab at addressing your concerns.
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imothep85
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 12:25 Edited at: 21st Oct 2017 13:11
well i dont have s2 scenes, only the defaults scenes who come with s2 engine, i created a basic scene here, but i need to close all the walls actually also the chairs and lamp, tabel are high poly so need to reduce that..


Fabio is working on interiors scenes for light/shadows test in s2 engine, and he is working on a new stuff for adding more than 60 zombies in one scene.
and he is also finishing working on a building/city generator.


he is also going to add a new function for quickly deactivate the post fx, the actuals renders contains too much post fx.

For Lee:

you can download exellents props 3D models here for testing in GG (need to be converted in x)
https://archive3d.net/

they are free and come with all the textures/mat. but are heavy in poly, sometimes you have low polys too.
thats what i use for my scenes. of course for GG you need low polyw versiosn or reduce the number of polys in the models.
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 13:31 Edited at: 21st Oct 2017 13:51
@imothep85
why aren't you using this instead of GameGuru if it ticks all your boxes ?
Lee actually asked for a demo you made with S2 engine not assets ... Models are not a problem
Have you created a demo or anything yourself ...
We would all be interested to see it and lee could then compare ...
So far I cant find a demo created with this engine anywhere on the Intenet ?

The ironic thing is I own it and cannot make any sense out of it to create anything
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 13:46 Edited at: 21st Oct 2017 13:48
Yes, I have to agree with Synchromesh. If you are finding S2Engine faster than GameGuru with your current PC setup, I would stick to that engine.
I also have S2Engine and boy is it slow with my PC specs. GameGuru is a lot faster than S2Engine on my PC and I have an average graphics card (it might even be below average, I can't recall) , so I stick with GameGuru. S2Engine and some of the other engines out there seem way too convoluted even when following some of the bizarre tutorials.
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imothep85
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 13:57
synchromesh its really easy, you load a default scene in s2engine and then you export, it export an exe. with all the needed files, you just need to select what library do you want to export, and you get a exe
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 14:51
That's not "using" S2, that's just exporting a default scene, it's creating scenes and putting it all together as a game he's talking about, I've tried most of the game engines out there (including a couple of closed system internal custom engines) and so far I have yet to see an engine that gives the results we get from gameguru as quickly and easily.

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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 20:02
If there was a demo available i would have tried it but there is non.
The reviews are quite bad, this engine crashes a lot, probably due to the memory limit (32bit) which we will probably see in GameGuru as well when more features are added.

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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 20:45
Quote: "probably due to the memory limit (32bit) which we will probably see in GameGuru as well when more features are added."


That's a good point. Pbr will be pretty, but all those extra textures/materials are going to add up!
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Belidos
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 20:58
Quote: "If there was a demo available i would have tried it but there is non.
The reviews are quite bad, this engine crashes a lot, probably due to the memory limit (32bit) which we will probably see in GameGuru as well when more features are added."


You missed out, it was available for free until he put it on steam

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UNIRD12B
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 21:51 Edited at: 21st Oct 2017 21:54
hi guys ,
seems...no one missed out..IF you wanna try it for free---the S2 Engine......
took 10 seconds to find it online..
see if this works..if you wanna really try it...SEE--FREE TRIAL ...

http://www.profenix.com/eng/

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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 21:57
I have S2 and you can do a lot with it,but with a lot of work involved.i will stick with GG. Perfect for me click and go ,and it’s getting better by the day .

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Belidos
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Posted: 21st Oct 2017 23:00
Quote: "hi guys ,
seems...no one missed out..IF you wanna try it for free---the S2 Engine......
took 10 seconds to find it online..
see if this works..if you wanna really try it...SEE--FREE TRIAL ..."


The links on that page just go to the S2 homepage, there's no trial or beta download anymore

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Earthling45
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 00:28
Quote: "see if this works..if you wanna really try it...SEE--FREE TRIAL ..."


It did, i visited this page earlier this evening and the link was not present or i simply missed it.

Thanks UNIRD12B, downloading now.

@Belidos, we haven't missed out, let's see what it can do
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 01:24
I already have it. Have for at least a couple years. Crashed a lot, I remember, but that was some time ago that messed with it. The only other engine I really like aside from GG is UE4. I have a much longer-term project in mind for that, and although I've learned a lot so far with regards to Blueprint, etc, I have much much further to go. Thanks though.
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UNIRD12B
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 01:48 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2017 01:49
Hi BELIDOS ,
to make it even simpler to find,,,,you can go HERE

http://www.s2powered.com/copiasito/?page_id=1657

The other page you had to click on FREE TRIAL and go to the NEXT page and choose it.

AS you can see Earthling45 d/led it...and I just tried it right now.

Thx

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Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 02:13 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2017 02:52
Quote: "So far I cant find a demo created with this engine anywhere on the Intenet ?"


Me neither.

I think we should put this comparison to rest since there are no tangible examples in our hand? Ironically that hallway scene with the lamp I actually thought that was a game guru scene at first. I can tell you for a fact that whats in that scene alone, shadows, lighting and etc all possible right now in GG.

S2 Engine is not a stable piece of software. It crashes a lot. Its an unusual engine to compare to. Especially since we do not have any demos to test with to compare FPS and graphics.

That city example is possible in GG as well. It has a pulled back FOV and the camera distance is set really far so you can see the distant LOD loaded buildings in the distant fog. Maybe i could make a comparative shot. For now, here's a little scene i made in a few minutes the other day, showing distance treatment and what you can do with lights and shadows.





The first example you have shown us, that bedroom scene... was made by Capcom in the 64-bit engine "RE Engine" by 120 staff members. An odd comparison. I think its better to show us something using similar stock quality items as we have in GG in another engine. Because the reason why the shadows look so good in Resident Evil 7 are due to the talents they have on board on top of their amazing engine.

For example there is a technique you can use to bake your shadows into your models' texture. This is usually done for static scenes where the lighting does not dynamically change direction. Basically anticipating what areas would not be hit by light and darkening them. I have no doubt that that's how they made their fabrics look so good and floor boards.

Quote: "You mean shadows like that Multi million development above..
Well don't hold your breath or give up your day job... Could be a teeny wait for GG to pull that off "


Synchromesh sums it up best ^ Keep in mind how much you paid for GG and you might want to reconsider your expectations lol As for people like myself I just want something that looks good and runs good with the freedom to be fully creative. GG is in the right direction for that. Trust me, the next update looks great.
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Earthling45
8
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Sep 2016
Location: Zuid Holland Nederland
Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 02:21
Well i had a go and had to restart after trying a testgame, i could not close it.
Then i tried to publish an executable and it hang after that, the executable does not run, it starts but that is as far as it goes.

What i find positive is that all produced maps with assets and so on are protected and in the form of a base file just like is the case in Eurotruck 2, furthermore for the lower end machines there is the possibility to set the resolution, if you want it to start in a window or fullscreen.

The testgame did run smooth but i could not really see how much fps i got, with the tool in s2engine it showed an fps count of 25 to 30, however that is in a small window within the editor and with overlays.

I'll try to produce a working executable again tomorrow.
UNIRD12B
GameGuru TGC Backer
10
Years of Service
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Joined: 2nd May 2014
Location: Canada
Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 02:25
WOW Teabone....
very nice example shots with distance and lighting....well done !

UNIRD12B
Let\'s actually make something happen with this one !
Jerry Tremble
GameGuru TGC Backer
12
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Nov 2012
Location: Sonoran Desert
Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 06:45
Nice scenes, Teabone! For those who doubt what can be done with GG (DX9), Teabone has just shown you. If you look around these forums, you will be amazed at what can be done. One of my favorites:

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/213812
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Gtox
3D Media Maker
10
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Jun 2014
Location: South Africa
Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 09:05
@Teabone - those are two of the best-looking outdoor scenes I've seen in GameGuru so far.
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synchromesh
Forum Support
10
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Joined: 24th Jan 2014
Location:
Posted: 22nd Oct 2017 09:23 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2017 09:24
Quote: "WOW Teabone....
very nice example shots with distance and lighting....well done !"

And there you have 99% of the answer ... Its not just GameGuru its the capabilities of the user as well
I cannot get amazing scenes like that either ... Impressive stuff Teabone !!
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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