As many have noticed, product chat has become a bit of a catch all in a way that wasn't likely intended.

Mods could easily just sweep through here daily, and move topics to where we would feel they are better suited.

However, As I have previously stated in a previous thread,



And as Synchromesh has said,



Please use this thread to discuss your feelings about the Product Chat board... What we can do (Both as mods and as a community) to improve the board experience.

Personally, I would like to see a new board for greyzone topics that are related to GG projects, multi-discipline tech demos, tutorials, etc. in conjunction with more explicit rules and enforcement of board content.

What are your thoughts on this issue?

LET'S KEEP THIS THREAD CONSTRUCTIVE AND NOT TURN IT INTO A DUMPSTER FIRE.

P.S. Yes! I do see the hypocrisy of posting this in "Product Chat" rather than "Website/Forum Feedback"

Thanks...at long last a proper discussion the boards

The product chat board should be exactly what it states....Product Chat.
This board should be for discussion about GameGuru product, a place where new users can ask questions before purchase and announcements on updates or progress reports can be made easily accessible. Sure there are grey areas but many current threads are obviously in the wrong place and simply left here which has led to the mess we see today. The problem isn't really about definition though, it is the fact as mentioned above that many use it as a 'catch all' instead of making the effort to post in the appropriate board the reasons for this are obvious.

As I stated earlier letting this go on for so long has led to this being the high traffic, high volume board which then leads to it being the 'go to' board for everyone no matter the topic and it's a jumbled mess.


I would love a 'Tech Demos and tutorials' board as this would be far more interesting to me and I wouldn't have to sift through the mess finding them. I really like to see what some of the innovative members do and it's educational for other users, So that's a definite yes from me at least.

Mods need to move threads posted in the wrong boards for sure and I totally agree with it, but only you can decide if it's a grey area or not. I reckon Mods can't all have a different graduation of 'fifty shades of grey' so it would be up to you guy's to decide on a more balanced and set contrast. If this had been done from the start then by now everyone would be used to it and you wouldn't be seeing so much of it going on, it will now take a while to get the message across.

I would like to see this to,I find myselfe forever trying to find information and demos I now I have seen but can't find again .

Dave

We moderators have discussed at length and have a few ideas on how we might ameliorate the situation. Additional sub-categories have been mentioned and we will definitely enforce the AUP less lax on this issue than we might have done in the recent past.

I have never fully understood why so few users present their games or media in the other boards. I understand that the product chat board has taken priority for many as it is where Lee posts his updates... but if you are already here, why not see whats new in the other sections? I know, I know we discussed this already.To each his own, however, this behaviour might have led people to knowingly mispost topics for them to get more exposure. This has been especially common for threads that should have been in the feature creep board (a board that I know gets barely any traffic as it is, admittedly not the most pragmatic of places but still.)



-Wolf

A lot of good points so far. Thanks for participating in this process!

Us mods have been getting our heads together behind the scenes and we seem to be in relative agreement. At this point we're trying to come up with a good name for the new board that's inclusive of what we want it to be.

The goal would to be to gradually reduce grey areas over time but, IMO, Rolfy's interpretation of what product chat should include is pretty spot on.

Before too long, users should expect to see some "low hanging fruit" moved around while others will take more time as we deliberate and await higher approval from admins to create any new boards.

(crossposted with Wolf)

A Demos and tutorials' board wound be good .a easy place to access a lot of information and help.

Dave

Didn't want to say that myself but reckon your pretty spot on. There is a feature request board and a Voting board and I believe it isn't fair on those waiting for features they voted on seeing the developer wander off on tangents because a few users agree on something different around here. I have seen this happen and it doesn't matter how small or how easy it was to 'slot in' it shouldn't be happening.

There are already two boards to post game demo's in so it needs to be clear it's for tech demo's which show something new,unusual and 'out of the box' a board like this inspires and encourages users and potential buyers who would normally accept things as 'impossible or un-achievable'. Recently I have seen some of the most awesome scripting done in LUA and this interests me hugely.Posting such things when in prototype on this board has been fine by me so far and mostly I have seen the end product released to the script or media boards where it belongs but a 'go to' specific board would keep all this stuff where it can easily be found whilst in development and to me that's the interesting part, problem solving is the biggest part of creating games whatever the engine and you can often find a solution to something where you least expect it (in another developers tech demo thread for example).

Agreed

Dave

We were thinking something like
Game Design Discussion
General Game Making Discussion

Where you can post Tech Demos. and show something different than the usual Game Demo
Any ideas appreciated

I still think a Demos and tutorials' board is good.i think

is a bit general,maybe those and a Tech Demos board. Or is that to much, i no at the end of the day you guys have to keep it tidy.

Dave

They are general but much different than " Work In Progress " and " Showcase "
Its trying to find that right heading that covers tech demos, Ideas and discussions that's hard

Pretty much right there.....

"Found a solution? Share tutorials and display your gameguru tech discoveries and findings here."

Noticed it is indeed a lot of tech demos

It might also help to move "Product Chat" down a space or two (or however many). It's currently at the top, so it is naturally in a position to be read first and therefore posted to first. The other topics are great suggestions as well.

I would suggest 3 new boards:

Experimentation
Tech demos and proof of concepts that push the boundaries of Game Guru but aren't necessarily connected with a particular game.

Tutorials
Written and video tutorials on Game Guru, content creation, and game design.

Team Requests
Need a little help finishing your game? File a team request here.

That last one would require an example thread showing what information is required and how to lay it out. Basically like what "The Dig" is to the WIP board.

AE

The only way I believe to 'balance the traffic' is to rename 'Product Chat' and reshuffle the board (like a deck of cards) so that they are in a different order.

Product chat would be more suited as an introduction to GG I think this would be more appropriate the word Product Chat is very open and like you say people sit in that board I am guilty of posting in the wrong boards and yes I admit I have done it myself,

the reason for this was because I had issues with the forum I posted at about 09:00 in the forum section about my issue I waited until after 17:00 the same day and posted it in product chat the issue was then resolved within the hour!

so I can understand why people do it.

I'm not sure how many mods there are but wouldn't it be better to assign a mod a forum section and he looks after and controls mainly that section?

or get some volunteers create a new group of people and call them Section Mods I am sure there are enough people here in the different time zones that could/would help

Excet for that one they would have to change their policy, TCG's policy on team requests on any of their forums is a strict no to it.

Team requests are currently allowable for established projects. I think that's pretty fair because it lets potential joiners know they won't be wasting their time.


There are some good and interesting suggestions in the posts above...

Personally, I am apprehensive of adding too many new user boards simply because it may exasperate the low-traffic problems which lead folks to misuse PC in the first place.

However, the idea of a shuffle is interesting. Here's an idea...

Instead of only thinking about boards, it could be good to think about sections as well.

Perhaps we need a new section above "GameGuru" for something like, "GameGuru News and Announcements" with boards for News, Updates and Official Contests. Dedicated boards in this section would only be able to have new threads started by Devs/Staff and would also contain official discussion threads for said news, updates, etc. Possibly other boards such as Feature Creep and Bug reports could be moved to this top section.

Then, we could break up the "GameGuru" section a bit into more related sections.

For example, there could be a section called "Game Guru Projects" where Work in Progress and Showcase would be moved to. This would allow the project boards a place near the top where they are more likely to get valuable feedback and exposure.

Below that we could have a section for "GameGuru Resources" (or similar sentiment) which is where the new Tech demo/Tutorial/Theorycraft board(s) would be, followed by the existing scripting and media boards. At the bottom of that section is where the current "Product Chat" would be relocated (Honestly it could probably be moved even further down to the "General" section if the intent is it for it to be a last-stop-catch-all board.

Lastly, my personal opinion would be to move "GameGuru Store" (as it is just an external link now) and Virtual Reality (unsupported) to "General" as well.

For many years i have used forums, owned forums, and helped moderate forums, and a recurring theme is the simple fact that when you have a large user base, people tend to find the most generic board, as close to the top of the forum as possible to just heap everything into, it's an absolute pain, but it's just internet culture, people want to express their opinions, or ask their questions with the least amount of effort possible, all you can do really is damage control.


Personally i would divide the forums into sections with related boards under each heading:

Announcements:
News & Announcements (Only developers and moderators can post here)
Competitions

General:
- General GameGuru chat
- General Of Topic Chat
- Closed Beta Discussions

Showcase:
- Works in Progress (i would add a tag system that puts a tag in front of the subject, so people can choose genre/format, ie. selecting Multiplayer would put [MP] in front of the subject etc.)
- Completed Projects
- Third Party User Contributions (what is now the free models forum, i would add an upload/link form and lock it so that only people uploading/linking free models can create threads, but anyone can reply to threads)

Technical:
- Guides & Tutorials (possibly with strict rules about format and content)
- Third Party Tools & Software Chat
- Third Party Models/Media Chat
- Easy Building Editor Chat
- Scripting Chat
- Multiplayer Chat (i would reduce this down to a single board for all multiplayer related posts, WIP's and showcases can go into the normal showcase/WIP threads, maybe with a tag system so you can choose genres and formats?)
- Virtual Reality Chat

Support:
- Bug Reports
- Feature Requests
- Forum Issues

Foreign Languages:
- French
-German
etc......


I'm not expert, but i do have a bit of experience with forums, so if you guys ever need any extra help i'm always willing.

Yeah, I think more sections for specific boards is a good idea.

Errant I send you a link to another forum, didn't want to post here even though it is 2D engines site. But check out the use of sections there, it may give some ideas for you.

Reliquia....

[edit]

Feedbacks = 0

3com

All the rules on this forum are a black art, yesterday i posted in a thread about one of Bugsy's games then 2 hours later I posted in the same thread about Wolf's game only to be told it is classed as a double post and I can't do it, that one belongs in the stupid rules hall of fame, you can't post twice in the same thread about 2 different things 2 hours apart apparently.

I like Belidos's suggestions. It also helps encourage visitors to check out the other topic areas which usually go unseen.

That's a very common rule on many forums, almost every forum I've worked on has had that rule, most forums have a rule that if you are replying to a topic and you were already the last person to reply you should edit your previous topic and add too it rather than increase the number of posts, there's usually like a 48hr limit on most forums. It's to stop forums over inflating with posts.

That wont work ... Not all the mods are here all of the time ....Some are even at work when they pop in for a quick look.
Whoever is around would just end up keeping an eye on them all anyway.

was just a thought like I said I don't know how many mods there are

There are about 8 of us around .... Not including the devs

And at least two or three of the mods are infrequent visitors now. Btw, Good to see you back EAI.

I have informed you that this is policy here in, as far as I recall, the most civil of tones. I have neither edited nor deleted any of your threads but simply have been letting you know not to do this in the future. Now you are in this thread complaining about it. This is baffling to me as it is the most common rule in most forums.



-Wolf

Maybe but how is posting two entirely different posts about 2 entirely different games 2 hours apart deemed as a double post ? By that token everyone posting in the work in progress area is double posting every time they add a post to a their own thread without anyone posting in between which is the only criteria you can use to say it was a double post, what I am saying in this thread is that there seems to be a lot of grey areas which seem to be up to a Mods discretion I have read the rules and it seems different mods have different interpretations, last week someone "demanded" some models and that was deemed ok because it wasn't a request according to another mod, I was asking about the rules to clarify and another mod locked the thread, you guys need to get on the same page and make things clear.

You can update your own project threads if you have progress to add, its otherwise not allowed to post twice in a row.
I have sent you a detailed PM about that request thread
As you have said yourself, we moderate this board to our own discretion and this is not up to debate.
I hope this clears things up.



-Wolf

Sort of. I think I am confusing myself half the time.

That's fair enough. Two questions though:
1 - What constitutes an 'established' project in the eyes of a mod?
2 - What board allows Team Requests? Would one have to do it in their WIP thread, for example?

I just figured a team request board would be tidier.

Another helpful addition (although this is branching off slightly) would be a sticky in Models & Media with a list of freelance artists' contact details, portfolios, and rates. For modelling, textures, voice acting, story-writing, that sort of thing.

AE

Problem with team request is that you are going to get some people working more on the project and some working less. If the game is sold for money, now all need to get paid. Lots of pre arraignment to consider. A solid floor plan or story line must be set.

Someone has to be in charge of overseeing the final map building. Someone needs to be in charge of keeping track of expenses and legal issues.
Some one need to be promoting it. Lots to think about before you get a dozen people involved with your project.

Team requests are allowed, but there better be legit progress made on story lines and art style to entice people to join in.
Some proto type level maps made with concepts, an art style chosen, not a bunch of mixed media, that dont pertain to the story line or timeline or graphic style of the game.

Previously we have allowed these to be in the off topic board, but some more consideration will be required.

I would have thought a tech demo/proof-of-concept level should be a minimum requirement for a team request, not just a storyline and some artwork. That would certainly help separate the committed from the under-motivated.

Also, if the mods are worried about there being too many boards, is it really necessary to have 2 separate models and media boards? Couldn't they be combined? Maybe have some kind tag in each thread subject line like [FREE], [TGCS] and [EXTERNAL] (for media not created by our community but useful for Game Guru)?

AE

Main reason for separate boards is to keep paid asset W.I.P. threads from having every other post read...

"WILL IT BE FREE???!!!"

This was a big annoyance to artists on the FPSC boards and having separate boards seems to work well at alleviating that.




My personal view is that if someone has a properly constructed W.I.P. thread showing genuine effort, They should be able to post in that thread that they are looking for X or Y help and to PM the author for details. LIkewise, if a project is showing genuine progress and interest from the community (A healthy WIP thread with lots positive comments from 3rd parties) that it would be suitable to make team requests in Off-Topic so long as the afore mention WIP thread is linked to. It may also be suitable for experienced developers with non-shovelware released titles on Steam to solicit for help upon startup of a sequel or similar. Other Mods or Staff may have different thresholds for what they consider legit but we generally agree that we don't want a bunch of kids roleplaying "Game Studio Simulator" here on the forums.

One thing i have noticed though, and it's a little annoying, whenever something is moved a ghost entry is left in the latest post column, and in the section it's been moved to it just changes the time/date of the latest post instead of displaying properly there. It's not a huge deal, but it can make it awkward to navigate when you use the latest post column to see if there's anythng new.

My view is that a tech demo and tutorial board would be a good idea

Apart from that I think it needs the mods to be 'ruthless' in their movement of posts to where they think is best (not in terms of slaps to the users posting unless it becomes obvious it's done on purpose just in terms of shifting to correct boards).
Once that happens I suspect people will gradually start to post more In the correct place and readers will gravitate to all or some of the boards that interest them.

Perhaps mandatory linking to steam for verifying ownership should also be considered to head off piracy (I hold no sympathy for people ripping off others especially small software businesses that need to put food on their tables for their families same as everyone else).

Cheers.

The problem I have found when posting anything is that the other boards get no real views in comparison. Also the other boards often just don't cover the post. Many of my posts are tutorials or simply showing what I have been working on and none of the boards really reflect that, so they end up in product chat. When I have tried to post on another board, no-one really views it and as I am nearly always trying to promote a new thing for GG think it better for it to get viewed.

Really, there are too many forums categories in my opinion, one reason why most only visit product chat. Just look at these as an example : 3rd party tools, 3rd party models/media chat, free models and media. Unnecessary bloat imo. Really all 3 of these could be merged into one or two boards. Free models are 3rd party I imagine 99.9% of the time so why make the distinction? There really aren't that many tools out there, so why an entire section devoted just to that?

We don't need the competition thread. Useless. When was the last official compo? Even if we did have one, other forums could be used temporarily while it is going. Virtual reality? Give me a break. GG doesn't even support it anymore. Even if it did, it doesn't really warrant it's own board for the amount of users who would frequent it. Bug support. Okay this one is useful, well it would be if you got the impression it was ever looked at Which I don't. Multiplayer boards seem almost as useless, but that's more down to GG's lack of multiplayer progress or features. I mean I haven't bothered with multiplayer at all. I have zero interest in making what I consider to be one of the most boring pointless game types around, online shooters like Unreal tournament.

I'm pretty sure the list of forums could be reduced down. The more there are the worse this becomes. The reason why people use product chat all the time is because generally that's all they are here for. Check if there's any progress and leave. They might check for interesting threads while they are there but that's it. Few people have the time or interest to check out all the different categories. This will not change no matter what is done, but a smaller selection of threads would probably help a little.

Game Guru Product Chat covers everything technically and so mods can't really blame users for using it. Traffic is slow generally here, so until GG gets a lot more users this is a non issue for me.

I couldn't agree more. Case in point: does anyone really think Prebens thread on water shaders would have received over 3200 views if it had been posted originally to the thread that someone has now moved it to (with out any notice I might add)...?

I think not.

AE

If i may , can i please suggest that we start and put things in place were they belong,
i was wondering if it is possible to have an extra Board under scripts with the name CF Scripts, witch stand for :
Complete functional Scripts . in this board we can list all the lua scripts witch is complete and functional, meaning they do the job they were indented to.

So if any one is looking for a script that they need , witch is complete , then this will be the place were they can look for the scripts. It would be nice if a new users needs a script and have a place to go and look for one.
Scripts can be listed under different categories with a sort description of what the script do.
Before a script gets added to the CF Board it has to be tested by some users to confirm that it does what it is supposed to do, only then it gets added.
if all the working scripts is under one Board, you do not have to wonder were you have seen it and look all over the forum to find it.

Mod's please look in to it and see if something like this can be workable.

Here's an idea, lets just get rid of ALL the boards and just have 'Product chat' then we don't have to change a thing and everyone can be happy.

Could that be because they all hang out in Product Chat ? There are a few users who post only in this board even when the topic is obvious and these are the threads causing this issue to be raised more than any other. I find the innovative stuff far more interesting and you are correct when you say that there isn't a specific board for this kind of thing, so don't you agree there should be a go to board for it ?
IMO if there were such a board I wouldn't visit PC much at all except to keep up to date with progress on the engine which is the building blocks of the product it is what users do with it that is the interesting stuff and I guarantee you Lee himself would visit that board more than any other.

I appreciate that the OP mentioned


Yeah, I guess it is just like this thread - it should be in Website/Forum Feedback board - but if it were would we be having this discussion? Does anyone read that section?
I think it is the same with PC. some topics don't fit any category specifically, and if you want it to get noticed\replied to, then PC is likely the place where it will seen.

Reliquia....

Probably right .... The thing to really ask is ... Is it the forums fault or users posting in the wrong place ?
Will new Sub catagories even help if the ones already are not being used as they should

Maybe there should be more question prompts built into the web page prior to the user being able to post, so that the user has to respond to specific topic related questions prior to posting, a bit like ebay where they ask which category, what size , what color (ok that is a basic example) etc.... this might help placing the posts in the right place.....

I guess if we Renamed " Product chat " to " General chat " and left it at the top ... Then created a new Category called " Product Discussion " nearer the bottom that would solve the immediate problem of posting anything here
I think this has just become the commune area for hanging out ... Perhaps just a rename and not stopping it is the answer in this case ?
Just a thought ..

Exactly what I said rename product chat and shuffle

Avenging Eagles last post in the changing font size thread on this board is perfect for a tutorial board,it will get buried here.how often have we tried to look something up to help out someone only to find we can't find it

Dave