Product Chat / Question about illumination

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MK83
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 01:10
attached is a pic of a scifi door with the texture maps Im using. The compression of the _I map is DXT 5. I got illuminations in Reloaded, but now Im lost.
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Teabone
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 01:16
What does it look like during test play? The same? Make sure to set entity shaders to highest
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 03:15
Quote: "What does it look like during test play?"

Yes, that is test play, and I have everything set to high. Puzzling.
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MK83
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 03:19
@Teabone, sorry, that was not test play after all. Here it is.
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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 05:07
If your using the character shader change it to entity_basic.fx, even if skinned animation it should still work. I think the illumination mapping has been broken in character shader for some time now.
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 08:02
Can you post a screen shot of your test game settings?

Ilumination maps work fine, at least hey do for me, but there's a couple of settings you have to turn on and turn up.

1. As rolfy said character shaders have no illumination, make sure it used the basic entity shader.

2. The entity shader needs to be set at highest, which you say you have done.

3. Inthe box to the right of where the entity shader settings are, the top option (I forget what it's called) needs to be turned up.
4. Sometimes, one of the settings in the far right (again I forget the name I think it's specular something or other) needs to be turned up a bit.


This is one I've done recently:


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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 08:08 Edited at: 30th Mar 2016 08:09
This actually helped me with a recent problem. Thanks Belidos, it was the global specular I had to increase. I too didn't have my illuminations showing.
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Belidos
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 12:38 Edited at: 30th Mar 2016 12:38
Quote: "This actually helped me with a recent problem. Thanks Belidos, it was the global specular I had to increase. I too didn't have my illuminations showing"


No problem, I got quite frustrated trying to work out why my illumination maps weren't working, then I realised no illumination maps were working and thought my client was bugged, it was only when I started messing around with settings and I accidentally turned something on and things started glowing that I realised you had to change the settings to get them to work, so I can feel your pain. Glad it sorted your issue out.

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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 13:58
Nice info Belidos! righ now I'm working with a mesh with quite a lot ilumination parts, thanks 4 the info.

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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 14:10
The illumination map can be dxt1 compression, as it is a black background with white for what you want to glow.
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 14:30
Quote: "The illumination map can be dxt1 compression, as it is a black background with white for what you want to glow."


Funnily enough I was going to mention that too, but I wasn't sure how important it was, so I left it out.

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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 15:56
Only importance is that the Illumination texture is 8mb instead 0f 60mb.
Just saves some space. This map can actually be much smaller then the size of your diffuse texture.
Example:
Diffuse texture: 4096 x 4096
Normal texture: 2048 x 2048 or larger depending on the detail.
Spec Texture: 1024 x 1024
Illumination texture: 512 x512 or smaller depending on the detail.

This format uses a lot less memory then having them all the same size, and there is no noticeable difference in the Game appearance.

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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 18:18
Bookmarked!, thanks Mike.

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MK83
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 22:27
Quote: "Can you post a screen shot of your test game settings?"

here it is, I've tried everything I can think of.
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Belidos
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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 23:20
Max out your bloom and global specular, then turn your ambience level right down and see if the bit that is supposed to glow can still be seen.

If you can still see the white in the dark then the illumination is working, but not very bright. If not then i'm stumped.

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Posted: 30th Mar 2016 23:44
still nothing.
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 01:11
This is a very helpful thread, thanks to all!
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 01:30
Can you email me your textures and I will take a look at them and see if I can spot the problem.
Also email me your FPE file please. I will substitute a mesh for the test.

Email address below.
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 02:07
@Pirate Myke, Done.
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 02:42 Edited at: 31st Mar 2016 02:43
Quote: "Diffuse texture: 4096 x 4096
Normal texture: 2048 x 2048 or larger depending on the detail.
Spec Texture: 1024 x 1024
Illumination texture: 512 x512 or smaller depending on the detail."


I've never considered using smaller sized specs, normals and illuminations. Will that properly scale correctly on the model? Anything that improves the optimization of performance is worth checking out. Thanks for this information!
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 05:07 Edited at: 31st Mar 2016 05:07
Yes, they will work proper because the uv mapping hold the size over the model.

The new Scifi pack is utilizing this technique.

If you dive into the shader and take a look, you will see that the extra maps besides the diffused, are manipulated and changed to speed things along. In the case of the normal map, the sample is enhanced.
The illumination is effectively a black and white image, and is sized in the shader to speed it along. All the shader here is doing is masking an area and then rising the diffuse level to almost full saturation to get the glow.
Specular map is most of the time a grey-scale image, except when die electric materials are represented.
And even then the spec is just to mask an area to have the light show a pattern of reflection. Does not need the full detail and size.

So it is a great optimization technique also.
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 05:20 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2016 13:57
@MX83:

Your issue with the i map is simple. It has a solid white alpha channel and is not passing that spot thru.

Attached below should be a working one. You can open them side by side in Photoshop or GIMP and compare the alpha channels.

You will see the difference. In the original one the alpha is white across the whole texture, effectively masking out the whole area.

Looking at the fixed one you can see that the alpha is blank where the image is black and whit, just around the highlight of the light glow.

EDIT:
In Gimp, you can open your original _D texture and then select the areas you want to glow. Right click on the layer and choose add layer mask. A window pops up. Choose selection. Then ok.

On the layer again, right click and apply layer mask.

Save the image as .dds with dxt1 compression and you should be good to go.
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Belidos
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 08:31
Quote: "I've never considered using smaller sized specs, normals and illuminations. Will that properly scale correctly on the model? Anything that improves the optimization of performance is worth checking out. Thanks for this information!"


Yup, as PirateMyke said, that should work fine. An X file doesn't reference the size of the file, it works by referencing UV co-ordinates on the image (probably a complex calculation based on percentage positioning much like our panel/sprite system in gameguru) so you can have any size texture as long as the aspect ratio is the same as the original (ie you can reduce a 2048x2048 to 1024x1024, but not to 2048x1024).

Quote: "Your issue with the i map is simple. It has a solid white alpha channel and is not passing that spot thru."


Good catch PirateMyke, I completely forgot about alpha channels, I had exactly the same issue a one point because I tried creating an illumination map with an alpha mask that was set to pure white (which is what you normally need to do for transparent texturing), tok me ages to figure it out, can't elieve it didn't pop into my head in reply here.

When making an illumination map it's probably best to start with a new image set to transparent form the start, then import your UV map as a layer and create your illumination map directly on the transparent base image, that should avoid this issue.

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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 14:56
@Pirate Myke, Thanks works now. Also noticed that you made the door and frame separate. Frame is static. On mine made with (Seg auto welder) the door and frame was made as one piece and dynamic. Thank you for your help.
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 16:02
You are welcome.

I usually convert all the stuff by hand.

We do not have the punch feature back in Game Guru yet. So yes, Frames and Doors are two separate entities.
Frame static, with collision mode = polygon (1), so the layer and AI can get thru them.
Door, dynamic with box collision (0) so you can attach a script to it.
Dont forget that after you set the door, go into its properties and set isimmobile=1, so the door does not jitter inside the frame.
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 21:34
Im still not getting something with making my own _I texture. Could someone please maybe post a small video showing step by step in gimp how to get _I from the _D texture?
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Posted: 31st Mar 2016 22:38 Edited at: 31st Mar 2016 23:22
Open your _D texture in GIMP.
In the layers dialog tab
Right click and choose Add Alpha on the layer.
Select the areas that you want to glow on the diffuse texture.
Right click and choose make mask on the layer.
Another window will come up.
Choose From Selection. Notice there is an inverse button there if the mask is opposite of what your need.
In the layers tab again right click and choose apply mask.
Go to the Channels dialog tab
Look at the alpha channel.
It should be all black except where you want the diffuse texture to glow.
If all is correct then you can then export it to the texturename_i.dds file with DXT1 compression.

There are several ways to mask when making them, so you may need to do it a few different ways.
As long as the results come up with all black except what you want to glow in the alpha channel (being white), then you are good to go.

Hope that helps more.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 01:53
@Pirate Myke, thanks, I will give it a try.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 01:57
I will try and make a video of this for GIMP.

But it should work for you.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 13:35
Quote: "I will try and make a video of this for GIMP."

Great
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 13:39
that would be great, bookmarking this thread
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 15:25
Ok, Here is a video on how to make an illumination map from a diffuse map in GIMP for Game Guru.



Hope that helps out.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 15:52 Edited at: 1st Apr 2016 15:53
Quote: "Hope that helps out."


Not sure if i'm missing something, or you forgot to video an important setting, but when I follow your video tot he letter, instead of the black and white texture I should have all I get is a completely transparent image with a little white box, like this:


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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 16:08
Yes, it is the mask that allows the diffuse part of the texture to glow.
If you look at it normal in GIMP in the layers dialog after you apply the selection mask, it should be transparent everywhere except where you want the diffuse texture to glow. That part should be a white area as you selected. (what your showing)

But if you look at the channels dialog, then down in the alpha section all should be black except were you want the diffuse to glow, that should be the same white area you picked.

Now in the mask creation dialog, there is an inverse selection option, if you are getting the reverse of what you thought it should be.

The picture I choose already had the Alpha channel in it as full white. You will need to add an alpha channel to your diffuse texture if it does not have one already, and then perform the mask operation.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 16:47
I copied what you did exactly, yes the based image had an alpha channel, yes the image showed black and white in the alphas channel, however the actual image is fully transparent except for the white area.

It sounds as if you're saying that is how it should be, but I've always been lead to believe that in an _I map the glowing area is supposed to be white and all the rest is supposed to be solid black, not transparent.

So what I was asking really is, basically we don't need the solid black colour in an _I map then? As long as the part that is meant to glow is present and masked then colour in the rest of the map is not needed?

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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 17:12 Edited at: 1st Apr 2016 17:12
It is based on the alpha mask. Now I noticed your picture posted was a png file.

Are you trying to use png or was that just to display? I will have to try a .png image to see what the difference is.

Also can you email me your textures, and I will look to see what is up with them. email below in button.

The straight black and white image without any alpha in it will not allow the glow of the diffuse texture to be masked thru it normal because there is no block or mask to tell it where the non passthru info is. that is the white part. The transparent part will pass the original diffuse thru the shader and render it normal in Game Guru.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 17:19 Edited at: 1st Apr 2016 17:25
That was just to display, the actual image was .dds.

It wasn't an actual real texture, just a practice attempt to see if I can od it, I have no idea if it works or not in GameGuru.

I was just asking about it because I noticed the background isn't black and because in the past I've always been told that the black tells the shader not to glow and the white tells it to glow and gradients between tell it how much to glow and so on, and in the past I have made perfectly working _I maps with solid black and white and no transparency or masks except the base alpha channel (the ones in my motel sign pictured earlier on in this thread were done that way).

Just wanted confirmation that what I was getting was right.

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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 17:38
Ok, if you open that texture in GIMP no what does it show?

When I reopen the _i texture after doing this, it shows in the layers as a transparent background with a white spot for what I want to glow. Now DXT1 compression applies alpha to the pure black. This is try the way Game Guru uses it also in DXT1 compression and anything pure black used will be transparent in the game engine.

This is how I have been making illumination maps for 6 years now. Nothing appears to have changed. But I see more people are having issues with this then really needs to be.

Do email me your maps. Would be interested in seeing the differences from the Hotel one to the new one you are trying now.
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Belidos
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 17:45
Quote: "also in DXT1 compression and anything pure black used will be transparent in the game engine."


This is probably why mine worked even though it shouldn't have, the solid pure black is being treated as transparent

Sorry If I sound like i'm questioning your process, i'm not, i'm questioning my interpretation of your process so I can get it all straight in my head, your help is very much appreciated.

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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 17:50
No problem. Knowledge brings power. It was a great informative thread for all.

@MK83:
Is this working for you now?

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Belidos
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 17:59
Yeah, it's actually a good idea to have all this in one thread. I remember when I was trying to work it out and I asked, and nobody seemed to know exactly what to do, I did a search back then and it had been asked quite a bit and most of the questions either weren't answered or had very vague answers, I finally managed to piece it together enough to get it working, and now I find I was still doing it wrong, I was just lucky it wasn't wrong enough to break it lol

It's little pieces of information like this that we need to collate and store somewhere in a comprehendible format where it's easy to find. I have a week off work coming up soon, I think I might start trawling the form for these titbits and try to consolidate them into a readable format in one thread (if I can be bothered to get out of bed on my week off that is :p ).

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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 18:05
We can put it all to that wiki thread to be passed along there. I sent some info over already.

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/214958

Then we can get that link on an announcement and keep it stickied.
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3com
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 19:41 Edited at: 1st Apr 2016 19:45
Invaluable info Mike!
I really appreciate it, thanks a lot mate.

Edit: Forgot something related.
Any info about matrix setting?
I've readed here something about play with specular slide, and so on, so have you some suggestion about?
Thanks in advance.

3com
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PM
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 20:03
this is very useful info, thanks Myke
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 20:38
Your welcome.

Once you set the entity shader to highest you should see this glow immediately.

Bringing down the Ambient levels will make it stand out more.
Bringing down the surface levels might dull it a bit.

For the specular, you would not think that it is supposed to effect that.

Turning on the Bloom increases the effect for sure.

But I am sure some shader adjustment on our end will improve this.

I will play with it some more in this version and see what may have changed or what is a good starting setting.

I will also look at the basic entity shader and see if I can get more info from it.
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MK83
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Posted: 1st Apr 2016 23:31
Quote: "@MK83:
Is this working for you now?"


Good to go, thank you so much
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PM
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2016 05:51
Great to hear. Glad you got it going.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2016 10:11 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2016 10:28
ok, so after a little trial and error, I think I got it working, set the .fx to illuminationent.fx (not sure if anyone else is using that one or different). Works better in dark setting.

[update-actually just want to test further with ambience level down]
Professional Programmer: Languages- SAS (Statistical Analysis Software) , C++, SQL, PL-SQL, JavaScript, HTML, Darkbasic Pro (still love this language), Purebasic, others
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rolfy
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2016 10:27 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2016 10:31
Illuminationent.fx is an old FPSC Classic shader which is missing a lot of the shader code for GG, since entity_basic.fx has the required shader properties for fog, lighting and shadows etc and also illumination mapping you would be better to use that.
Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2016 10:31
thanks Rolfy, I'll try that-the test with ambient level down did not show the light glowing, so doesn't work at the moment. One more try I think.
Professional Programmer: Languages- SAS (Statistical Analysis Software) , C++, SQL, PL-SQL, JavaScript, HTML, Darkbasic Pro (still love this language), Purebasic, others
Hardware: Dell Precision 490; AMD Radeon HD 7570; LG TFT monitor (widescreen). Wanting a new PC at some point.
Interests: Drumming, Saxophone, Art, Theatre, Music.

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