Product Chat / Direct X 11 changes

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Kesstryl
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 04:11
When the engine gets updated, will we have to tweak our current games and assets saved with DX9, or will DX11 be backwards compatible with what we have already made?
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 05:23
Historically, as far as I know, each version of Direct x has been compatible with it's predecessor. I'm sure there have been times where it hasn't (as times do indeed change, and quite rapidly), but I'm not aware of any. Good question, one worthy of further research!
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 06:51
should be ok
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 09:40 Edited at: 28th Aug 2015 09:40
Hi,

With the new update, it is possible that we won't be able to support all of the cards that we currently do, but we expect this to only affect a very small number of users. This is in line with many other game development tools and is a necessary step if GameGuru is to get into line with modern software and give our users what they most want, which is a fast, visually stunning and feature rich development tool.

All existing media will work providing it uses default shaders. We will be upgrading these shaders to X11, but ensuring backward compatibility.

Where a model uses a non default shader, some tweaking may be required, but we'll try to keep this to a minimum. DirectX11 work is still in early stages and we will have some more information on this hopefully towards the end of next week.

I hope that's clarified a few things.
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3com
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 13:53
Quote: "With the new update, it is possible that we won't be able to support all of the cards that we currently do"

Intel graphic(hd) card?

3com
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JC LEON
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 14:06
Quote: "Intel graphic(hd) card?"


sadly for you 3com but yout laptop is not the best solution for developement

and yes.. i think intel hd grahpics wont be supported correclty or have problems ...but it's normal..

in th past Lee sacrified the quality of gg due to amplify the compatibility range but now in 2015 i gg want to be stay at times this is not b possible I suppose..
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pdidy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 14:10 Edited at: 28th Aug 2015 14:11
tessellation? displacement mapping ?
DVader
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 14:27
As tessellation is mentioned in the voting list I imagine that will come later on, could be wrong of course. Now VS 2015 has been adopted many new options should be available.


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JC LEON
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 14:44 Edited at: 28th Aug 2015 14:54
Quote: "tessellation? displacement mapping ?"


tessalation is an huge resource eater..

I think we first must have the engine rock solid and with all basic functionalities working(multicore support and decent framerates for our projects) and all engine placeholder removed and substituted from real functionalities ( e.g. water, ai and enemies, remove hardcoded flashlight, adding a pickup and carry function due to gameplay options..), adding more lua commands so coder can give us cool scripts and extends gameplay..and firstly.. PLEASE ADD A DECNT SUPPORT FOR MULTITEXTURED OJECTS.. AND A SHADER THAT SUPPORT IT..

Gameguru grahpics capabilties are good now yet..since if we have a good lightning system and the PARTICLES gameguru would compete with other game engine on the market about grahpics....except UE4 of course...LOL

for eye-candy like tessellation and other goodies and grahpic stuffs ..there is time to work on in the future
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3com
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 14:46
Bad news so. I'll need desktop one full equiped.
I am considering the possibility of requesting a bailout to the European Union.

3com
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snowdog
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 15:25
I could do with one of those myself lololol
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HarryWever
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 15:28
ahhhh 3 com,

do you need Donations

Harry
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yrkoon
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 15:38
@3com If I were you, I would really wait until GG is in full flight with DX11 before buying new gear. Many here seem to be employing what could be called today's top notch Hardware and still seem to experience only average performance, no-one can probably tell today how gg will perform with dx11 on a given set of Hardware components..
just my 2 cents
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3com
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 18:27
@ yrkoon
You are right. I take in count that, in fact I'm waiting for, So while I keep doing what my resources allow me.

@ Harry
Yes I think so.

@ all

I'e related question, always think about. If I make a game getting 7/16 fps as I get, if you play my game with a full equipped pc, dos this affect you?
I anothers words, this poor fps I get, does not matter for you, because yours high resources?, does you'll get maybe 60/70 fps?

3com
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 18:40
@3COM

GameGuru uses a timing system, so all games work as smoothly as possible regardless of the GPU or CPU. There is of course a limit with any software. If you're GPU takes a second to render a scene, you're not suddenly going to get great performance.

SC
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3com
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 19:02
Useful info SC, thanks a lot mate.

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yrkoon
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 20:01
@3com and, by the way, I seriously admire your power of endurance, taking up with such low frame rates, I really do, no joking.

But don't worry, those low framerates do not carry forward to more powerful machines.
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MooKai
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Posted: 28th Aug 2015 20:49
Looks like we will get a complete new engine...
I mean changing to C++ and DX11, amazing if we will see the result in mid Sep. hopefully
I hope they'll also fix some old bugs, like the floating grass...
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Northern
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 00:17 Edited at: 29th Aug 2015 00:21
@all:

I could be wrong, however, do not be conned people, to improve the overall performance of a game engine, game maker or whatever that GG has become; it's not enough to change its core programming language from darkbasic to C ++, or to change from directx9 for DirectX11. There are many other variables involved throughout this process, which should be improved as well, otherwise nothing will change the way as expected by most GG users.

Nowadays, except for its better graphics quality, stock hi-poly 3D model characters and terrain system, the quality of GameGuru software, as a game maker tool, is far behind FPSC X10 or FPSC Classic, unfortunately.

Perhaps, after the expected magic happens, it passes to deserved first position, miles away in front its brothers, but not nowadays, it's a pity!

Cheers,
Northern
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Kesstryl
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 01:26
It's still being developed, I wouldn't condemn at this point. Too many are impatient to have everything perfect right now, but programming is a process, and so is building a game engine. Try learning to use Unity or something else, you will then appreciate all the work that GG currently does for you, and it's not done yet. Look at the weekly development logs, a lot goes into this, not every year, not every month, but every week, and that's one of the things I really appreciate about this. Work on making your own assets if you don't like the stock ones. Comparing it to the old version is like comparing a baby to an adult. One had longer to grow, the other is new and not done growing.
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FabledFoe
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 04:09
Is it possible to leave an old version of GG intact so current users who can make use of that product with their current setup can continue to use it?
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 05:23
Not with steam, the only way is forward. The only thing you would be able to do is make sure you only use an offline version of GG and never update.
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Northern
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 07:13 Edited at: 29th Aug 2015 07:28
@Kesstryl:

First of all, many thanks for taking the time to write your kindly reply.

Second, I can recognize and admire the great work and efforts of the development teams of GameGuru, as well as the FPSC Classic and FPSC X10, trying to make products to make the very difficult task of make a video game much easier and accessible to people, especially, for the beginners.

Furthermore, before using the GameGuru and its brothers (FPSC Classic and FPSC X10), I had tried some other game engines, such as Torque 3D, Torque 2D, BlitzBasic, 3D Gamestudio, UDK, CryEngine, among others.

Consequently, I understand properly the difficulty of learning to use all the tools necessary to try to develop a very ordinary video game in other game engines out there.

Some tasks which are made readily in FPSC family, where you may easily to create waypoints, spawn points, trigger zones, check points, sound zones, win zones, bullet holes, AI, iron sight vision in weapons, etc., with no coding, they may take months or years, until you be able to make similar stuffs by yourself alone in other game engines previously mentioned.

So, I am no stranger on this road, and also I know very well some traps scattered along it.

Besides, I have put a lot of money (on software, books, game assets, training, etc.), trying to learn this subject(game development), and in special, the most valued asset which everyone person in the world may have: the Life Time.

Nobody may be able to recover the wasted time. Once it lost, it will go forever. Sometimes, that loss may result in severe and irreversible consequences.

Moreover, I understand that GameGuru is still in development, by the way, practically all serious software nowadays, are always in development, a great example is the MS OS Windows and its versions, as well as other Microsoft products, which are almost daily updated, just to name one example.

However, just using only one or two "Jack of all trades," to make all the development work that GameGuru requires at this time; it's a giant task near the impossible.


All the best,
Northern
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Teabone
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 08:11
Direct X 11 and C++ integration is quite unexpected. No complaints here. I'm just along for the ride.
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yrkoon
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 08:43
Quote: " Direct X 11 and C++ integration is quite unexpected. No complaints here. I'm just along for the ride"


It's a proper decision. Given the size of the development Team and the chores of core and "peripheral" functionality yet to be developped, it is all important to leave tasks as Compiler development and optimization, keeping pace with Windows OS progressive development and current graphic Subsystems to Providers employing whole huge Teams on each of these Tasks.

It will also ease the step to 64-bit Versions of GG, eventually.
Should have been done right when FPSCR became GG.

But, like Northern, I do think that moving to C++ and DX11 alone is by no means a warrant for greatly improved perfomance.
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 16:48 Edited at: 29th Aug 2015 16:49
Quote: "But, like Northern, I do think that moving to C++ and DX11 alone is by no means a warrant for greatly improved perfomance"


Correct, but this is just part of the process as we've often stated, we'll be adding multicore support, occlusion, hardware rendering and a lot of tweaks to gain big performance increases.

SC
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Posted: 29th Aug 2015 20:12
Removing the DB core for me will be a great improvement. It may not yield huge speed gains, but it will make everything considerably snappier than it is at present. Anyone who has played with DB Pro and Dark C++ will know what difference it makes: It is far better at handling lots of objects (entities) and should help reduce slowdown due to simple object count. DX11 will not speed things up either as such, apart from those of us who have hardware optimised for it.
Also as said by SC, now it is all C++, other optimisations are now easier to do due to the upgrade to VS 2015. I loved DB, but to have a game maker based on it, to try to make fast modern games is really a non starter now. Way better to go C++ and open up the possibilities of better optimisation methods available.

Northern mentions: " It's not enough to change its core programming language from darkbasic to C ++, or to change from directx9 for DirectX11."

All I can say is what more do you want? The move to C++ is essential for better features. It is also the standard language used for most games development. It is a step in the right direction. Without which, many options would not be feasible. Yes we need faster shaders, DX will help with this. Multicore, again this is much easier to introduce now. Moving to DX11 will stop TGC reinventing the wheel for DX9 and will probably speed development up a lot in the process. Obviously it won't fix the AI off the bat etc, but a small team can only do so much and I believe that this will help a lot in the long term.

I'm all for it. Imagine, no dll files needed. No silly errors on other peoples machines saying error! Missing blahblahblah.dll! Should make GG altogether better and much more reliable for sending demos etc to friends, or of course selling your blockbuster game I can't wait to get my hands on the new version!


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Northern
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 03:44
@DVader:

Hi,

I think I was misjudged. In no way, I wrote or said that changing the core programming language of GG from darkbasic to C ++, or to change from directx9 for DirectX11 was a bad moving. It's the opposite, and I agree entirely with that changing in the core programming language of the GG; it is a good move, after all.

For sure, I believe and I hope; it will result in some improvement in overall software performance.

My initial purpose, however, was just to alert people, in order that they do not create high level of expectation regarding to the waited improvement as 100%, 200%, 300%, or more, in the game performance, as compared to the current software performance, thus avoiding great disappointment after the update finally, come out.

Of course, if the only manner to solve all performance problems of any game engine on the planet, it was the change in its native programming language to C ++, then so all single game engines should have the same performance today. It would be all too easy does not it?

Unfortunately, things are not that simple.

So, what to do for GG becomes the next FOX Engine (Konami) and Snowdrop Engine (Ubisoft) competitor, I am just kidding , I do not know, and for sure, I will never know in my lifetime. It's up to GG developers try to find out the answers.

It's just to clarify, both FOX Engine or SnowDrop Engines, are in-house software; therefore, they are not available to the public.

DVader wrote:

Quote: ""All I can say is what more do you want?...""


I just want to be a pleased customer of GameGuru software, where I can create anything, which I may try to market it, without my target audience, need to have a high end video board, installed on their PC system, in order to play it, with no severe lags or bugs, during the game play.

Next, I have finished the task, I may say: Great, it was worth my efforts and time I have put on this work; I have done using this program, after all.

That is all I want to.

Cheers,
Northern
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Corno_1
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 08:33
Quote: "what to do for GG becomes the next FOX Engine (Konami) and Snowdrop Engine (Ubisoft) competitor, I am just kidding"

I know you are kidding, but did you see the trailer? There are top developers telling that it is so easy to use and of course everybody thinks now, even a beginner can create soemthing stunning like this. But the most guys forget that this is just a commercial of a product the never have in hands, so the developer could you tell anything.

We go to directx11:
Hmm I am the only one who is worried about this step? I have no expierience with this in development, maybe I will always be a step behind my possibilities. But of course it is a nessessary step.

c++:
On the one side it is a improvement, but on the other side it could make everything worse and harder. I mean dbpro is easy, c++ is a hugh monster. So maybe it slows down the development.
I hope the developer know what they do
My dream is to develope games, which makes fun when I create it and fun when other people play it.
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yrkoon
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 09:10
@Corno_1 :
best try to see both moves (dx11, c++) as strategic moves, building a solid foundation for the future which neither dbpro nor dx9 can claim for themselves.

Of course it is totally possible to create a complete and utter mess in C++ (and likewise in any other language), on the other hand, the merciless strictness of the Compiler will rule out many oversights before they even arrive in .o

DX11 will hold out for a while, although dx12 is about due now, so, as black belt developers, tgc should have all Information avalable to developers at their fingertips since long.

I for one am expecting a mixed Performance gain (some things will run faster, some other most likely even slower than before for a while), and it will likely affect medium and high power machines -in both directions- the most (sorry for our spanish friend 3Com ).
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3com
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 12:35 Edited at: 30th Aug 2015 12:51
@ yrkoon
Tx mate.

@ devs
Hopefuly you'll sate here the new hardware requeriments, than best matches the new GG version.

After all, I need to know how many donations I need to claim for.

Anyway the idea TGC release standard version for users that does not met the new requeriments yet, would be nice. (off line version only), or perhaps the chance to work unconnected always (maybe a radiobutton, or something like that).
Moves to dx11/vs2015 is a necessary step, change always come with side effects, but do not think it's anything that can not be overcome.



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Teabone
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 16:03 Edited at: 4th Sep 2015 08:04
Bit of a dumb question but with the core changing to C++ does that effect if we will still be using LUA or not?
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3com
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 16:37
I think we will continue to use LUA to communicate with the engine.
If you mean, if we can use a different language, this does not know.

3com
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yrkoon
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 17:29
Quote: "Bit of a dumb question but with the core changing to C++ does that effect if we will still being using LUA or not?"

I think Pirate Myke stated in another thread that LUA is going to stay as THE language to communicate with the kernel.
You won't Need to and -infact - won't be able to apply C++ to GG yourself, without a lot of internals of the kernel publicly documented and some Kind of API published.
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3com
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 17:51
Quote: "without a lot of internals of the kernel publicly documented and some Kind of API published"
.
This would be nice to have.

3com
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 18:16
Yes, LUA will be the main script-able language for the new core. In time other languages may be introduced for custom control over the core, but that will be in the future.

For now having the core in C++ means that things can be diagnosed with modern software to pinpoint bottle necks and make changing these issues faster. Some things will have a boost in performance out of the box, others will still need to be developed.
Will make use of the hardware the user has more efficiently.

It was a wise decision to go in this direction now instead or later saving months of rewriting and making new code.

This will defiantly open the doors for GameGuru user to make more professional looking games that are up to today's standards.

Not saying this will compete with the big engines, but will make a very nice Indie development engine and great fun for us hobbyist also.

Also there will be issue that will need to be dealt with when it is released to the masses and running on many different machine configurations.
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DVader
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 18:20
@Northern.

Ah, I understand now. Yes people may be expecting way too much with the latest performance work: Especially as it is taking some time compared to normal updates. We won't see huge gains from a C++ core, but it will not longer be bottlenecking the system as I believe the DB core does (on any system), so I am expecting a smoother experience overall. Of course if your current maps are running at less than 10 FPS then they are very likely still going to be very slow after the update. I couldn't say if DX11 will make a massive difference, but when FPSC X10 was first introduced Lee made much of the power of DX10, so I can only imagine it will help a fair bit. Many new video cards are optimised to run DX10/11 features as well these days. If they get occlusion working with it then it would make a considerable difference.

With reference to other peoples thoughts about C++ possibly hampering development. I don't think it will. In fact I think now it is all C++ it will make things far easier for Lee and Dave to work with. They are professional coders after all. C++ gives them the best chance to make something pretty special. For me it should have been done ages ago.


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Inertia
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 18:21
Corno_1 wrote: "I mean dbpro is easy, c++ is a hugh monster. So maybe it slows down the development.
I hope the developer know what they do"


And who wrote DarkBASIC? The Game Creators. In what language? C++.
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Corno_1
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Posted: 30th Aug 2015 23:21 Edited at: 30th Aug 2015 23:40
Quote: "And who wrote DarkBASIC? The Game Creators. In what language? C++"

And dark basic is written not perfect. Look at the source code
I know and I also know that Lee is a good coder. But C++ has some risks and errors can happen to the best coder. Windows (Vista) is coded in C and C++ and you maybe know it is not perfect and they have the best coders of the world in their teams

I not want to sound pessemistic. I just want to say do not think everthing will be better....
My dream is to develope games, which makes fun when I create it and fun when other people play it.
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MooKai
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2015 12:02
I hope they will fix the memory bug, after 7, 8, 9 levels my game always crash. Looks like GG is running out of memory, or the memory is not cleared after completing one level and move to the next one...
Old school FPS fan, DOOM!!! Why GG not working on my AMIGA 500?
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 08:03
That is a major issue ^
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 08:42
Yes GG very memory intensive
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3com
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 15:31
Quote: "or the memory is not cleared after completing one level and move to the next one..."

If so, it overload the memory cache, when GG has not free space to writte data, then crash. If so, a new strategy is needed.

Perhaps running in the background, as many processes as possible.

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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 17:53
GG does seem to have a memory leak, just leaving the editor open and not doing anything -not even touching the computer at all) will make the fps drop all on its own (takes a few hours for me but i guess people with lower spec will notice it quicker) and only restarting GG will make the speed come back - note this even happens on a blank map.
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MooKai
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 20:01 Edited at: 4th Sep 2015 20:06
So the mem gets filled with something, which is not deleted after the task is finished... hmmm
I hope they see that, during they converting, rewriting the code in C++

Just wondering, is GG still a 32bit application after the change to DX11 C++ or will it be then a 64bit app.
A 64bit app could address more mem, which maybe would solve the mem problem.
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Inertia
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 20:43
MooKai wrote: "Just wondering, is GG still a 32bit application after the change to DX11 C++"


It will still be a 32-bit app because: 1) it is the routines that are being rewritten and not the editor itself; 2) there are many users who have 64-bit hardware but run 32-bit versions of Windows.

The only major change I know of is that GG will no longer support Windows XP.
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 21:29
I think it would be a good idea if TGC could release a final DX9 version of GG with the C++ optimisations, possibly a few last bug fixes. That way anyone who is still on XP or has limited hardware, can still use it and have a better experience. Then go for the DX11 variant. If this update has a decent improvement on speed I think DX9 users would like to see it

I'm happy that DX11 is being introduced as it will improve the product quite considerably down the line. I just think a final DX9 release available as a download rather than just Steam would be a good way to help keep the few who still have XP happy.


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MXS
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Posted: 4th Sep 2015 22:47
I would have to disagree on trying to keep xp users and dx9 for a final version. it would be pointless and a waste of time only holding back the new progress work between performance work and that long list of votes. xp is outdated and so will the last version of GG dx9 . it is easier to upgrade to windows 10 and move on from there. Lee should not by any chance put time into dx9. everyone at this point should have upgraded to windows 7 or 10.
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 7th Sep 2015 23:19
Quote: "GG does seem to have a memory leak, just leaving the editor open and not doing anything -not even touching the computer at all) will make the fps drop all on its own (takes a few hours for me but i guess people with lower spec will notice it quicker) and only restarting GG will make the speed come back - note this even happens on a blank map."



FPS aside, I can leave the editor open with nothing on the map while I do other things, and after a couple hours if I return focus to GG, it will crash and resume from previous session (or whatever that message says). I think I read that the C++ conversion will provide them with a lot of new troubleshooting tools to track down things like this, though.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 8th Sep 2015 12:37 Edited at: 8th Sep 2015 12:38
well if they have done a good job converting to C++ they should hopefully have implemented good 'garbage collection' and memory leak techniques using constructors/destructors on objects etc....
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