Houston, we have a problem! GameGuru MAX will no longer release on the planned date of 30 November.

We could blame COVID 19 and Brexit – but we won’t! We simply need more time to get to the quality standards that we’ve set ourselves, and that you’re expecting and deserve. In all honesty, we underestimated the time it would take to do the work and, despite the dev team working like trojans and being incredibly productive, we need more time to make GameGuru MAX as good as we say its going to be.

The main improvements needed are the A.I. system, which needs ongoing iterations to bring it up to a high standard; the engine's performance and stability needs fine tuning; and there's a host of UI tweaks and improvements that need to be made in terms of overall quality and polish.

GameGuru MAX will be our best game-making tool and, in order to achieve our goal, we’ve settled upon a generous, yet essential amount of time to realise our ambitions. The new launch date is 25 March 2022.

Input from our great community of GameGuru MAX Alpha users played an important factor in our decision to delay the launch date. Their feedback overall was that despite GameGuru MAX having the potential to be something exceptional, that it was lacking polish in too many areas to be released.

We’d like to say a huge thank you to all our alpha users for pre-ordering GameGuru MAX. We are truly grateful to you for the faith shown in GameGuru MAX (and us!) and your time, involvement and the feedback that you have so freely shared with us.

We will continue to issue Alpha builds each Friday to all those who have pre-ordered and a small number of additional pre-order copies of GameGuru MAX will be released on sale shortly for those who have said they want to join the journey.

We know it’s frustrating to have something delayed which you’ve been looking forward to, but we also know that when we finally release GameGuru MAX into your hands it will have been worth the wait. And our absolute priority is to get this right!

Thank you for making the journey with us – we hugely appreciate your ongoing support!

Lee, Rick, Meash and DAJ @ TheGameCreators

Best news ever ! ( I get weekly builds so no issue with it)

As I said before it was in no way ready for release, even for early access.If people want to complain again about the release date push back, if they went ahead with the release, it would have been ripped apart on steam.

Brave choice TGC and fully support it, I am a complete happy chappy.

Wise and the best decision
Steam would of gone town on it.

Will also get others drooling for it. And also some alpha tester freshers with extra funds.

Extreme good decision. Quality first.
I want no fast but bad product.

I am so happy to hear this. I been thinking it should be delayed the closer we get to the release date. I personally don't care for a release date and would never ask for it. I think TGC and Lee should take as long as they need to complete game guru max. This is how game guru should have been develop back in the fps reload days. I felt fps reload was rush and incomplete during it's release. So I was hoping TGC and Lee would have learn from that mistake with game guru max. I don't care if the release date is set for fall 2022. I say take as much time needed. There's so much more features that could be added to game guru max. Like the entire list of things that was on the feature vote board https://www.game-guru.com/feature-vote . With game guru max it's coming close to the game engine we expected from fps reload/game guru. TGC should remove the release date completely and let Lee take his time working on game guru max. The forum community needs to be very patient and stop asking for a release date. Creating a game engine like this is a complex development.

I think it's a great decision to delay the sale of the early access release of GameGuru MAX. MAX is shaping up to be a really great game maker, but it's still alpha ... and it's easy to see it's alpha. It's making great progress, so don't get me wrong, but it's not quite ready for prime-time ... even as an early release candidate. Some may get upset that MAX is delayed "yet again", but I think the angst will be a lot less than what you'd get on Steam if MAX were released in it's current condition.

Having said that, I am someone who, several months ago had requested a refund. Now? Now I really like the system ... a lot ... and see a lot of potential in what you are creating here. So, please, take your time and continue to make MAX into something amazing.

Oh you were the one

Best decision ever..

Although I'm not that involved now with GGM or GG due to other responsibilities, I still don't miss the live stream broadcast, and GGM get updated every Friday with the latest.

I think the majority of the long time GGM users, or even someone involved in Huge projects will understand the situation.

If they release now, there will be way to many newcomers complaining about the product. Good choice to bring back the pre_Release special. I'm sure by now most of the users will know if they want to buy and use GGM and should see the advantage for the delay of the final release, seeing all the new features and possibilities.

The Friday builds help all of us and get used to the new functionality.

Great decision... looking forward to the final release, and keeping the Friday builds going

Yep.

But MAX has won me over.

Had a quick look at steam and one or two comments are like, removed from wish list, one or two complaints. I rather have that then actual bad reviews. Of course the resident youtube troll calling gameguru max trash is still at it, recently uploaded a new video.Youtube troll either has a vendetta against TGC, or he is intentionally doing it for click baits.

all in all I expected some fallout, but it has been mostly positive.

Ye i was just on my way to work when it was announced and expected to come home to face it all but nothing really.
Still early days of course

Yes, definitely a good decision, look forward to more updates.

Getting the engine we all are expecting, is the main goal; so, yes, totally agree.

WHAT AGAIN B

This is getting silly. I REALLY hope this is going to be worth it after all this.

You can buy it now and 15% cheaper if you really want it .. Just not via Steam
You do not have to wait. Its the same Alpha

Is it really silly? I mean, they are realizing that they need more time to add in the features they want, to squash bugs, and to make MAX what they want it to be. They don't want to release a version of MAX that is bad. Why is that silly?



You can watch the development videos and decide for yourself if you think it's worth waiting for. If not, there are other options, which I am sure you're well aware. There's nothing preventing you from working with another game engine in the mean time. And, as synchromesh pointed out, you can also get your hands on the alpha right now at t a discount and work with what they have right now ... no waiting. Of course, it's not a completed project and there are bugs, but you can at least get your hands on it and evaluate it and see if you think it's worth it. They do offer a refund if you're not satisfied.

Great decision from TGC. Best not to rush anything out on steam, a cheapy game might get away with releasing something not totally finished, but a serious piece of software unfinished would get slammed, even though it would be early access.

Brave decision, but the right one.

Quality is never silly. It is what we want to have, what can make us happy.

You can buy it now and 15% cheaper if you really want it .. Just not via Steam
You do not have to wait. Its the same Alpha.

I already have the Alpha, you know the one that was supposed to be released in Sept 2020, Then in Nov 2021 and Now in March 2022.

At the rate we are going, Covid will be on variant 312, The Iphone 37 will be out and I'll be living in a nursing home with dementia the time GGM get released.

But as always, I'll sit and wait quitely in the corner with my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that the final product is going to be the product we all hope it will be.

So whats the problem then ?
Just because you cannot load from Steam ?
Surely not ..

As stated, these other game engines took literally years to create. YEARS. Even Unity and Unreal started somewhere and took many, many, MANY years to get where they are now. As I had stated before, I'm beta testing another game engine that's been, again, literally YEARS in development. GameGuru MAX is fairly young in its development when it comes to game engines. You can't seem to grasp that. Apparently, the TCG team also underestimated that as well. But at least they have the wisdom (yes, wisdom) to NOT release the product as is, but to push toward a more complete, more robust, and more stable product. 3D programming in general is an incredibly complex task. Real-time 3D is even more complex ... a balancing act that I don't even want to contemplate. So, feel free to go cross whatever appendages you want while the rest of us wait patiently for the TGC team to work on something that most of us can't even begin to contemplate creating on our own.

synchromesh - Shhhhhhhhhhh, I said I was going to sit in the corner quietly.

I will chime in as well. The writing was on the wall that such an announcement was imminent. It came as no surprise to me. A most understandable , wise and 100% correct decision!
And if the March 25th date comes to pass, will be celebrated (with a bang at least by me) as a major and fun date to remember. March 25th happens to be the Greek War of Independence, also known as the Greek Revolution of 1821 against the Ottoman empire. It may be GG MAX's independence day as well!
So, much to celebrate...
What a nice video update today!
Cheers to the team TGC!

Max has made tons of progress already and I’m excited to see what is in store over the next few months

Game engines never stop evolving, Max is just a baby at the moment. I can see it growing fast with the team behind it , I’m just enjoying the ride as it grows

Dave

Good decision, since the first mention of a release date I have had no end of issues which have resulted in things not working. At the time I thought this is because they are rushing to meet the release date. As mentioned by somebody before it seems things are harder to find in the interface as we moved nearer the release date. But I also think it looks really good and a lot of functions have been made a lot easier. As a totally unskilled game maker (for home use only) who doesn't script, model etc because I do not have the know how ( I dabble badly is the best description), GG was a great help and GGMax looks even better. I would like to see Grouping and EBE saveable so it could be used in other GGMax games like any other entity. Keep up the good work, don't rush the project release or all your hard work will not reap the rewards it deserves.

As I was reading it my heart sank because I have been looking forward to it since I discovered GG and then, right at the bottom, a small amount of pre-orders available! I have joined the party, and I am so excited to be here!

Awesome !!
I dont get why someone is moaning on one of the discords but cannot grasp the fact he can buy it right now AND at 15% cheaper than it would have been .. Its the same Alpha and you still get a Steam Key on release. ?

Yep! By getting the alpha now, not only do you get it at a discount, but you can start developing your game AND, at the same time, report bugs and make feature request, helping to make MAX a better and better game engine. It's a win-win! So, why not get involved?

Hi everyone,
I would like to said only two things:
- Firstly, I understand totally Reactor's reaction. For me has no sense that one month ago TGC said we will release something, and sudently they decide they need 4 months more to be ready, we are not talking about one week or two,....4 months!!!!! I can remmeber something similar one year ago! This is not serious. Any customer that follow the growing development of this engine should be very angry if after the final release date on March 2022 or September 2023 the Engine has any bug or lack of functionality.
- And honestly I was sad when the pre-order was closed because I would like to buy it, so, in the other hands is a good news that again the pre-order time was again open. Maybe I will use it. But to be honest, I would like to know the current status of the Engine. What is totally implemented, and working? What is still under development? What I will be able to build?
Please TGC, do you have a list of the current features and which one will be also ready at march 2022?

The current features are in all the broadcasts which can be watched via the links posts on this forum or found on their YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/GameGuruMax

As far as development - Sometimes you run into things during development or things look like they are going smoothly and all things will come together as planned. And then ... blam! A bug (or bugs) reveals itself and shows you that it's going to take a lot more work than thought. A lot of what TGC is doing is charting new ground for them, like what they are doing the with nav meshes and nav "chunks" (or whatever they were calling them).

Fair to say some people isn't going to happy, explaining why, who and where, is generally just going to fuel the fire.I have seen and experienced quite a few product releases from TGC. It is a company that runs on a shoe string budget, especially in the early days, which meant there was almost zero opportunity or breathing room to fully mature their software.

Those early releases almost always got a lot of flack from the community, generally took several months after the initial release to get things on the right track, but generally the damage was already done. They also made the mistake to focus on to wide a field and the end result wasn't that great.

This time TGC is doing every thing by the book, while they still made some blunders by over estimating the release dates, there is actually some decent effort to get things done properly and the software being better then the previous version. While the classic version is far more flexible in what you can do, however the technology behind max is extremely versatile and 100 times more powerful then its classic counter part.

They honestly messed up with the release date, but seeing the actual potential behind the engine and how they have expanded on much smarter AI and general better FPS genre experience, they most certainly not taking any chances with releasing some thing that is just good enough for a public release.

This will be their flagship product so it needs to be perfect, lol well no software is perfect, but you get the idea.Delaying the software is in no way a bad thing.The early access would not have been ready to allow full fledged development either. So really not a bad thing.Some people are going to express frustration perfectly normal, some might be on the side of a little unreasonable.But I much rather take that then a string of bad reviews on steam that creates damage that won't be easy to fix.

Even now listing what is there would be one hell of a list
Ideally its a case of getting what we have and what is being implemented very soon ( vegetation as per last stream ) as stable as possible before adding any new features.
If you want the most stable version the Alpha will not be it. ( especially now they have more time ) For example AI may be good next week then not so good the week after depending what Lee is working on and he has already stated he is aiming to make AI better so you can expect ups and downs for a while i think.

It would be nice if TGC could remove $team from the equation.
It's funny that steam has such demanding users with GGMax and at the same time, I can open a new map, put a tree in the middle, create a standalone and call it "find the tree" and that steam is willing to publish it.

@synchromesh I know! I got early access, a discount and I can help make the final product better! As far as I can tell, this is a big win!

Yeah, keep it away from Steam for as long as possible. I will buy it again if it helps

OldFlak....

Ehh... I don't have a problem with them pausing for the third? time to get it right and make a completed game engine out of a level editor. All I ever wanted was a 64 bit engine with copy and past, menu creator, good lighting and decent scenery, a very reliable stand-alone system, and a few extra scripting API's like spawning your entities via script. In fact the very notion that they are avoiding that last part speaks volumes on the types of games users can produce with GGM. And a version of MAX providing that base game engine could have surely been released months ago? The problem is that the chosen release genre (Apocalyptic Zombie FPS) never worked for the public game consumer for Classic and won't work today either even in MAX visuals. The genre is ancient and decrepit 1990's news.

But we'll have to wait until all those demos and Steam games come out with all of them using the very same AI and characters, (deja vu GG Classic) which will make for "~interesting" re-runs to watch. So yeah, now that they are so deep into that, they better take the time to get AI right, but it's taking from the GAME ENGINE needs! If it needs debugging, let's do debugging and get stand- alone solid. Let's get optimization on par of satisfying the prying critics. In fact let's add a little zest for traditional, independent minded developers with script- spawned entities.

Here's a Steam/ Xbox /Playstation game that immediately made me think it could just as likely been made with MAX;
But even though it has even more 'features' than most people will end up putting into their MAX game, will give you the negative public reviewer results of that old genre, as seen here;

1.5 / 5 Score @ Xbox Store
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmS5j3fZLyg
https://www.thexboxhub.com/another-dawn-review/

It depends entirely on the game and production value of the game.

War games for example have never really fizzled out, while there is less World war 2 games, it mostly shifted over to modern war, and to some extend to futuristic warfare.Technology with regards to what you can do today has drastically improved.A lot of studios are revisiting established genres and giving it a new spin, like dead space as and example, which is like a zombie game but in space.Then you get games like dead effect, dead island, doom could be considered so what like a zombie type game.

Older games were generally fixed on some part of history, either past or future, the modern take while there has been a lot, it wasn't as popular as the future and past.Ea just recently released a new medal of honor games.

I could say exactly the same thing about medieval type fantasy games which generally has more games, then zombie and WWII games combined. Fantasy games in general give more flexibility and allows for creative design, which generally you won't find in modern and historical games, which requires some degree of accuracy, with regards to story, assets props, ect.

wargames is particular is some thing most studios and indies avoid, due to the fact it is really hard to put out a great war game, and still an extremely popular genre will literally 100 of millions playing, games like battle field , COD ect.

Additionally zombie games, in the last 3 years there has been over 20 games releases, sporting zombie or the theme of zombies, it is by no means dead, and developers will keep on putting out these type of games as long as there is a demand for them, the demand is especially good in the multiplayer area of zombie games, especially openly world survival generally having the most interest and still do till this day.

Indies and smaller studio are more likely to tackle this type of theme, as it far easier to create a decent game based on the genre.So while you may feel it has been done to death, the amount of releases based on the genre disagrees whole heartily.

Unless you have played with the AI in max or even own max for that matter, you would have known none of the new characters in max nor the AI is the same.Both have been designed from the ground up, and while the AI is nowhere as great as a studio that has spend millions of dollars on ai development and coding.It pretty much blows classic out of the water.The AI is more responsive and enemy AI would literally follow and try to kill you from on side of the map to the other.

AI is a lot smarter, if you have a group enemies till will try and flank you, even in a indoor environment, have shown this in a video I have upload to YouTube.

However game play still lacks that fluid motion and gun battles you get from other games and as far as I can see with each new version the AI and game play smoothness and interaction in general improves.Max pretty much beats, or rather will beat classic hands down in just about very department, my best guess is within a year once RPG and puzzle games have been implemented will have surpassed classic and then some.

With the exception of lua and some editor functionality, classic and max is entirely two different Beasts with just about most things being different or heavily modified for max.One example is the collision system, nav meshes, and general AI behavior, being completely different.

Trying to do a comparison is pretty much day and night for the most part.As far as I am aware you don't have max yet, if that is still true judging only based on videos posted by Lee and public info, is trying to compare the two while blinded, which may result in a bit of biased judgement which might not be entirely fair.

I simply can't stress enough how drastically different max is once you starting using it

Tell that to:

- Modern Resident Evil games (Resident Evil Village was released this year - 2021)
- The Killing Floor games (Interstellar Insanity was released this year - 2021)
- World War Z (Aftermath was released this year - 2021)
- Back 4 Blood (2021)
- The Walking Dead Survivors (2021)
- Dying Light (Dying Light 2 set for 2022 release)

... and the list goes on as I've missed dozens and dozens of zombie-based games released just this year (both good and bad) and didn't even bother with the plethora of zombie-based games that have been released in previous years. So, no, the genre is not just 1990s news. It has sticking power. It just needs to be done well so that those who enjoy it will play it.

My 2 pence having both engines i have found nothing but issues getting any npc to navigate my dungeons in classic and getting them indoors in my buildings is a joke the enemies got stuck attacked through walls did random stuff and pretty much did not much.
Max is a breath of fresh air to have a zombie go into my taverns and navigate them up n down stairs wait outside and jump me was fantastic
My modeling this time has not been wasted and so i feel a huge advance as hapoened

They are intelligent and no longer pitiful or laughable and give you a challenge you don't sit cocky with this ai. So far fantastic stuff

Keep it up guys im mightily impressed gubby please just buy it you will see for yourself

Hey thanks for the information guys. Perhaps it just all boils down to the fact that my personal preference is that I'll never relish any zombie game. This is my view on the genre, it's boring and mundane to point and click at zombies to knock them over. (But I do play Fortnite (squads) once in a while). So I like to interact with real players. Anyhow, I'm glad to hear that the MAX AI has improved in leaps and bounds-- and since they are providing characters that people insert into the game, it's essential. If the AI is good enough, maybe a few of those games can survive reviews.

What I see being released on Steam is colorful, multiplayer, crafting/ building/ strategy or multi-player co-op without so much gore and violence. Sure, there will be that kind out there too, but I have MATURE games turned off. I'm not going to play or use a game engine to produce MATURE rated games. So in Steam I see lot's of color, lot's of creativity, lot's of strategic interaction between players-- that sort of thing.

"I simply can't stress enough how drastically different max is once you starting using it"
I hope it's drastically different because I was counting on it being a whole new tool. But most of my remarks considering AI come from how it seems to have slowed up the release of MAX, and the notion of "what-if" MAX crew had concentrated on the Multiplayer system, and what if that was presently finished solid already now for release? You would still need some AI, but AI can't compare to real players vs players. So wouldn't Multiplayer be even better? Especially multiplayer that could accept custom made assets and scripts. When you want to get creative, "This is the way."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGl1IUU72LM

So you play a game that is geared towards children, with unrealistic weapons, cartoon graphics, and while it has a lot going for it, with regards to play smoothness ect, some thing that has been in development for several years.But call zombie based games that require tactics boring, because you start out with little or no resources and actually requires some strategy and forward thinking.

DayZ released in 2012, which started out as a mod for arma, and eventually got a standalone due to popularity, has been gaining players since its release, which peaked at 45000 concurrent players in January 2021.Sure fortnite averages 3 million concurrent players released in 2017 and is crossplatform, has it beat.

But then you get games like dayZ which started out as a mod and nearly 10 years later still has a loyal fan base and still growing at a steady pace several years later, is a testament just how popular the zombie genre is.There is lots of appeal in zombie games, both single and multiplayer games.

Will also add, TGC will never have a multiplayer system like dayz, fortnite, or any other mp games as it would take years of development time, and even big studios get it wrong and often.There is nothing wrong with focusing on single player games, it is still popular and will continue to be popular.Nowadays you either focus on the one or the other, games rarely focuses on both mp and single player.Indie games rarely do well in mp space and those that do well has to continuously be developed and improved to grow and keep the player base going.fall guys, among us are examples of indie games that have done well and has kept on developing the game.

Mp games especially for indies it is extremely hard to make a name for your self and keep players engaged.TGC has no intention of targeting that segment of the market as the product simply wouldn't do well at all due to how competitive that segment of the market is.A quick example is when world of Warcraft was at its peak level, other studios didn't even try to compete with it as many studios interviewed over the years mentioned just how much money it will cost. 3 billion dollars, that is what some studios have estimated the costs would be to compete in that segment of the market.

MP addition has always been pretty basic in gameguru, even fpscreator back in the day, and with good reason.Development costs to create an engine capable of creating fortnite or battle royal type game far exceeds their means, and would take even longer to develop then the current single player aspects they are developing right now.You won't be getting more then the standard death match in max.

If someone is a 3 billion studio, they do better developing their own game engine as Naughty Dog does with The Last of Us as for example.
As a side note, this game is a masterpiece at least for me, even uncharted series, those are the kind of games I like.

I think you misunderstood, 3 billion is just to develop the game, not ever talking about, advertising, servers, their upkeep ect.We are talking about billions and billions, to try and get a foothold in the market.No studio in their right mind would do it, as the risk was too high.

EA has operating net income of about 996m, Bethesda has even less and worth just over 3 billion.Using 3billion on a single game is pretty much a studios entire budget for 6-10 games considering the average cost to develop a game these days costs around 275 million including marketing.

Let that sink in to just develop a competing game to world of Warcraft at the time would have been the entire value of a pretty huge company like Bethesda. While 275m is at the extreme end, with most spending more then double just marketing the game.Skyrim made 450 million dollars at a development cost of a 100 million. Realistically there was zero chance that any studio would have attempted to best world of war craft at the time.It would have been business suicide.Just some idea and context to describe what a monster world of Warcraft was at the time.

DayZ is still getting updates and new additions ect and it has been nearly 10 years.Which really cements its continued support.

Hello
Was very very glad to see this, Game Guru Max is coming a long nicely and I am really looking forward to its release but not till its ready . And while I know people want it now I would rather wait for the best version, that Game Guru team can give rushing will only get bad reviews and upset customers.

I agree there, Zombie games are a style of game that has a big impact on the market in bursts, a slew of zombie games will come out and people scramble to play them, then just when it starts dying down and looks like the fad is over another zombie game will come out and they will become popular, i don't know why, but it's not new thing either, it's been happening since the early days of gaming on pc.



This part, to a certain extent i disagree with. I agree in the end it came down to costs, but primarily in my experience at the time testing MMO's ( i was doing alpha testing for SSI/Origin, then Sony, and finally FunCom, the three biggest MMO companies at the time before Bllizzard came along), when World of Warcraft came out the number of MMO's that came out shortly after increased dramatically, and even older MMO's tried to shape things up to come more into line with the style of gameplay offered by WoW, trying to coin in on whatever it was Blizzard had (i think the biggest thing they had over others was their art direction was designed to attract younger payers, whereas historically mmo's had been more for the older players), so they didn't really just decide not to, most of them tried but they just couldn't compete.

Sony even almost lost most of the player base of their two most popular MMO's because they tried to make them into WoW clones and couldn't get it right.

One of the games i was testing even tried converting the game completely from Isometric to full 3D, to keep up with WoW and after millions in development and a tone of work they completely reverted it back and the public never saw it.

Name a single MMO that managed 10 billion dollars in revenue ? At its peak it had 5.7 million in 2016, it has since dropped down a lot to just 4.5 million subscribers. MMO's that tried to copy wow failed miserably in particular to the style of the MMO I can't name a single MMO in this genre. MMO's that do their own things generally do okay but nothing close to that of wow.

The only mmo's that come close to amount of subscribers are old school runescape at 1.6 million subscribers and final fantasy at 2.0 million, since it's release it has managed to make 108m dollars. Comparatively wow made $300million last year, with a total revenue since 2014 at a cool 10 billion.

While final fantasy has been stealing wow players. There is nothing quite like wow in the market. Compare it to old school runescape which was released in 2013 has a lifetime revenue of just 1 billion dollars.

So while a MMO has a high player base doesn't tell the full story, revenue is also a consideration. There is no point if you have a player base of 400 million but only make 50 000 from that a year, as an example. Which is why this area of the gaming industry is extremely high risk as you asking players a monthly fee to play your game, or charge for new missions or skins ect. There is a reason why studios don't touch it, as you could end up making a loss, and takes several years to get a return of investment.It is more likely the studio will be out of business before and return of investment is made, should you wish to take on wow at their own game.

You are arguing i point a never made. I swear sometimes you just don't bother to read everything said and just skim for words you don't like so you can argue.

I NEVER SAID ANY OF THEM SUCCEEDED, i said they FAILED, i wasn't disputing that, what i was disputing was you saying they never tried, MANY of them and failed.

Also check your numbers, WoW peaked at 12 million active subscribers in 2010 with almost 100 million registered accounts, and is currently sporting 4.74 million active subscribers.

not sure why you getting worked up.But oh well whatever.You indirectly implied mmo can be succefull and match another mmo.You in particular said in your very first sentence but ''i disagree''. It isn't particular difficult to gather what you meant by that, directly or indirectly.Was having a civil conversation and you seem to have taken it personally.

It is interesting sharing ideas and opinions, but not so much when someone gets defensive.Fact of the matter is WOW has been and will be the most successful MMO for some time. Especially in the pay play segment of the market.There is no denying it.

As for you second post, I can ask you exactly the same question, with regards to skimming posts, as you missed where I exactly names the current top 3 mmo's based on subscriber numbers, wow being one final fantasy been 2 and in 3rd been old school runescape.Pot kettle much?
Final fantasy BTW has over 34 million subscribers but only 2 million being active..Secondly wow peaked at 46 million subscribers in 2017, 12 million was the highest active players .