$75.00 Bonus to Lee if he includes Character maker 3 character (Iclone) importer.
$100.00 extra bonus if Lee includes a system to control the imported (Iclone) character. Speech and AI motion etc. (from Game Guru Classic would be fine).
$50.00 extra bonus if a decent system to produce highways is included.
$50.00 extra bonus if the software is completed by July 1, 2021.
Anyone else out there feel the urge?
Time for Lee to double clutch it and hit high gear.

Knowing development costs you may need to move your decimal points around.
Quite a bit to be honest

Maybe a few serious wannabes could kick in.....

$275? That wouldn't even pay me through to lunchtime and I don't start work until 10am.

Maybe you could be the second to kick in a little (maybe donate your lunch break).

I think I've contributed plenty.

2000 of Lees helpers (supporters) X 275.00 (US$) would get interesting.......

If 2000 provided free scripts as I have or free AAA game ready models etc then that would be interesting too.

Throwing money at a problem isn't always the right answer!

There is no 2000 folowers, there are forum members, and customers outside the scene.No way u get 5500$

You may not like to hear it, but programming is the least expensive aspect of development, art including audio is the most expensive aspect. Proper 3D engine programmers are outnumbered a 100 to 1. Lee is struggling getting programmers with enough exp and know how even attempted throwing money at it. With TGC money while constrained isn't the issue, getting programmers is. Artists are a dime a dozen, programmers not so much.

If artists are a dime a dozen how can that be the most expensive aspect?

In my experience it's not the numbers that count it's the quality.

I'm a contractor currently working for a large corporation alongside hundreds of salaried professionals, most of them can't even tie their own shoelaces let alone write safety critical software! Luckily atm they are mostly all on furlough which means I can get so much more work done.

You miss understand, while programmers get paid more, their departments are smaller then art departments, meaning the overall work force is much larger and easier to find an artist then a programmer. There is also a lot more work involved in art production then programming in general, because programing is a learned skill unlike art which is a talent, good programmers are hard to find.

Which is why I said artists are a dime a dozen as it is easier to find a artist then a programmer, because arts entails a lot more work and larger workforce behind a project even when paid less, overall costs is more.

No. Just ... no. Artist speaking here ... art may be a talent, but you still have to learn and practice and practice and learn. You have to study anatomy, lighting and shadow, perspective, and a ton more just for basic art. And if you go the digital route, then you have to also learn your software, etc. If you break things down between 2D and 3D, then it changes a lot. I know a lot of 3D artists that cannot draw to save their lives. For many, 3D is a learned skill, not a talent, which puts it on par with what you're saying about programmers.

But let's speak about programmers for a moment. Yes, you have to learn to program. But some programmers are just talented. It's like those people who just naturally get numbers, can naturally do complex math. While most can learn programming (just like most people can at least draw a stick figure), there are indeed TALENTED programmers. To say otherwise is to discredit those who do incredible things when they program. Perhaps the talent isn't in "programming" per se, but whether it's math, pattern recognition, or some other such thing, they've manifested it in programming.

It's crap that you discredit programmers by simply stating it's a purely learned subject. I've tried to learn programming. I understand the basics. I suck at it and can't seem to wrap my head around it. I suppose you could say I lack the TALENT. Art? That's something I can do. But I didn't get decent at it until I started to learn and practice. Lots of practice.

Sigh. And you are entirely wrong .......lol

You are not born with programming skills, you have to learn programming, level of skill is based on a set of skills like problem solving and aptitude, stuff that you physically need to learn. The difference is EVERY single person in the world can learn to code, that has had a formal education. In other words it isn't an innate talent or skill you were born with like, artistic talents. It is a myth that programming requires talent.

Don't believe me ask google.

Artist can be taught or be born with natural talent, it is an innate ability, it has been proven artists brains are wired differently
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26925271

3D art is still art whether physically drawing something or using a computer program, it still requires learning and honing talent and the associated skills with the medium used, however there is still natural talent involved not every one can do art like singing, ballet, gymnastics, athlete ect. It is not to say you can't learn to do art and skills involved, it does however come easier to a person with innate talent.

Art isn't just about drawing, I can't draw either, nor did I bother to develop skills in that regard, it isn't what I like and I focused on what I liked, nothing wrong with that, doesn't make me less or more artistic for not doing it.Besides there isn't just drawing, arts are divided into many categories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_arts

It is not about discrediting programmers versus artists, don't know where you even got that idea from. Simply said art is a talent and programming is a skill, which it is, nothing wrong with that, not sure why you are getting all worked up about that. ????!!!

Huh? learning to use a program has nothing to do with the actual art, learning the functions of the program doesn't produce art, you still have to apply creativity, imagination and skill/talent to produce art with the assistance of the program.

Yes while you can learn certain things about art that will allow improving skill/talent, it will not teach you creativity or imagination, it will only help in nurturing it, while you can be taught what creativity and imagination is and nurture it and give people a creative or imaginative nudge.

Yes while you can learn about art, it is intended to hone skills/talent, but it isn't a requirement to be a good or great artist, the most artistic people I know are all self taught.There is absolutely no rule that says you have to go to an art school to be a good artist, it helps, but zero requirement to do so.

Programming on the other hand is different it is made out of a set of skills, without a formal education you won't be able to program, you require various actual skills for it, that needs to be taught, math, language, communication, spatial thinking ect,


Arts with or without a formal education will still produce quality art regardless of whether they were taught a language or math for that matter, it two significantly different activities. Quick example is cavemen didn't exactly have a developed language as we do today, and yet they still managed to draw amazing cave painting.

and which is why programming is a skill and art a talent.Now if you can prove to me and show me a single person was never taught any language start programming at genius levels, I will apologize, print this page and eat it. .


I really don't understand why you got worked up about some thing so stupid, mearly mentioned, programming is a skill and art a talent and ended up in world war III seriously. lol......thanks for the laugh

/EXIT THREAD

If a art is based on talent then there should be less artists not more!

Of course art is a learned talent, maybe being a really good artist also includes some sort of innate 'extra' talent but the same can be said for any skill set.

Engineering is a learned talent but not every engineer is a Brunel or a Scotty.

You could also argue that Tennis is a learned talent but if you think you can take any physically fit person and turn them into a Federer purely by giving them more lessons then you're bonkers.

For me coding is an art form and luckily I found it a relatively easy one to master, but I am an engineer with a science degree.

Oh and to your last reply, I am a self-taught coder, I wrote my first operating system at 14 before schools even taught anything about computer languages!

Not language as in programming, referring to actual spoken language, without that you would have had a hard time Without the ability to read or write would you be able to program ?

But I rest my case

Maybe what we need is more Elephants then.

Lol sounds like a plan however, sadly in some cases these elephants are being cruelly forced to paint.

But never did answer the question, would you have been able to program if you weren't taught to read or write/comprehend language. Nearly impossible not to have learned some language in the modern world, but would it have been enough, considering math is major part of programming not some thing you are born with. Would you have been able to paint or draw some thing without being able to read or write even comprehend language for that matter ?

Not all people who can speak a language have made a good success
by writing a book (or two) in that language. Yes, talent and DRIVE
are essential tools in most trades.

Narry a one wants to contribute? What a fine bunch of coconuts.


Talk is cheap but....................

Harsh for someone who obviously has not been around here much.
If you had you would realise many have and still do contribute hundreds of hours of Time, Models and Scripts towards TGC products.

Food for thought. Game Guru Classic was a valiant attempt but it didn't get me where I wanted to go. I could have never made anything of reasonable commercial value. Assuming Iclone Character Maker becomes an import and you can control the characters......some of us can then make games of commercial value. Is it worth a few bucks to be able to make something you can sell? There have been 900 million copies of Windows10 sold since 2015. 1% = 9,000,000 @20.00 = $180,000,000. At this point for a further investment of about $1500 and a little work the return on investment could be staggering. Image what it would do for the price and profit of Game Guru Max. Current games don't interest me but there are several varieties to yet be made. We just need the proper tools or a staff of 500 to do the job.

Possibly, but my experience with my own children is that you don't actually teach them how to communicate, it is an innate drive to do so.

My twins were chatting away to each other in their own language long before they could communicate with us in English!

Your Elephant example is rather apt as they are also an intelligent social species with communication skills!

Could that Elephant have painted without being taught how?

To synchromesh:

I only been around "here" 12 years and know the guys many years before that. Dark Basic days?
What's wrong with coconuts?

Only picked up on this now.No there is no such thing as a learned talent. Talent refers to natural ability in other words some thing that wasn't taught or trained. Skills isnt a natural ability, it is taught.

Clearly there is some confusion is this regard, talent can't be taught, skills can. Programming is and will always be a skill, it is a skilled craft which is an art form, and while it can be used to create art it is a craft, and differs in that it is physically used to create, by skills and technique that serve a physical purpose or functionality, and is usually structured. Graphic arts or visual arts is the exact opposite.

You shouldn't confuse a good tennis player or athleticism as a talent, it isnt it relies on skills learned a good coach and luck and selecting the right sport as well as body build.Got selected to play regionally for both baseball and cricket teams and made many national and regional schools and club finals.Ball ''sense'' is taught early on in school some develop their skills faster then others not talent, sport in general is based on skill and luck.Quick example how Germany managed to win the world cup, they started skills development at school level which took many years to develop and nurture those players and skills, absolutely nothing to do with talent.

Next you going to tell me professional gamers have talent, they don't either simple ability of skills and luck.

babies learn language and sounds in the womb and actually well aware of the 800 odd english sounds, while they still need to develop speech. They start of by associating words with, objects or emotions ect, doesn't necessarily mean comprehension of the words, object or emotions. Your two twins babbling to one another isn't another language it is english or at least the associated sounds of the words.

They actually learn language from the environment they are in, listening to you speak ect, and learn to associate words with objects, emotions it isn't a drive it is simply natural development, with repetition and routine.

Put the baby in isolation, with only robotic arms taking care of it, without any human language or interaction, what magic drive is there going to be to learn to speak without external stimulus.

As the child grows up, the robotic arms place coloring pencils and blank paper in front of it, do the same with an elephant, common curiosity will take over and it is going to experiment with it, given enough time both will start drawing some thing they find in their environment crude at first and should get progressively better, without having taught them any thing.In case of the elephant it will be a learned skill, in case of the child it may either be learned skill or talent based on the progression of the drawings made, the faster the progress the better the innate talent of the baby. It will eventually start drawing things based on creativity and imagination not found in the room possibly him self with the robot arms, or legs or whatever the case might be.

In case of the elephant it will always be a skill, creativity and imagination isn't that well developed, they don't have the innate ability to draw as it isn't some thing found in their natural environment, but teaching the animal the skill of drawing and guiding them will develop their skills further then their own experimentation and exploration, leisure time isn't exactly high up on the agenda.

But no learning a language is still a skill, comprehension of language is further development of that skill, without it, it wouldn't physically be possible to program, as it does require language comprehension among other skills. Which is why art is different.

This is quite interesting And makes the point clear Without formal education and language development you are pretty much dead in the water.
https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/curtiss/1990%20-%20What%20happens%20if%20you%20are%20raised%20without%20language.pdf

You guys clearly don't like spending time with your loved ones if this thread is how you wish to spend your Sunday!

A skill is learned knowledge that can be repeated to help one accomplish a task. Whereas talent is an innate ability.

Anyone can be taught to code, given enough tuition, just like anyone can be taught to paint a picture given enough tuition. What separates Amen and Wizard are that their innate talents lie in different areas. Amen is talented at maths and problem-solving, Wizard is talented in creativity and expressing that. But both of you are only able to express these talents because you learned skills to be able to do so. Amen has learned programming languages, Wizard has learned 3D software and art packages.

Anyway, back on topic. Chuckster, you're deluded if you think a $300 bung to Lee is going to get those features in Game Guru. As you can ask why other people don't also donate to get those features in, but the reality is we all want different things from Game Guru. So your token $75 to get a Character Creator 3 importer would have to be weighed up against my £75 asking for an overhaul to the weapons system. TGC already tried given us democratic say in the direction of development...and look how that worked out!

AE

Lol it is fun.

And no, no, no programming is a skill the end. !!!!!!!!! Having a talent for math or problem solving, doesnt make programming a talent it makes it a learned skill, the better the subset of required skills, the better the programming skill. How difficult is it to grasp programming being a skill that has to be physically learned by learning a subset of skill fundamental building block being language comprehension. Come on, it isnt that difficult to understand is it.

But on topic, if Lee were to chime in here, he also previously mentioned else where in the forum their biggest expense has been art for gameguru.He mentioned a while back the dragon found in the fantasy pack set him back $4000.00 odd.Art work isnt cheap, I am not willing to disclose how much commissioned work for gameguru has amounted to since the release of gameguru but it is a couple of thousand and there were several artists producing art for gameguru at the time.Now I can only imagine what additional programming costs would have been if the got additional freelancers. $75 wouldn't even pay for a steam dlc let alone a programming a new module for gameguru.

If I were to hazard a guess initial development costs for gameguru would have been close to 70-100k.

So....your not going to contribute?

If its an easy fix people will help for free here. if its something big, don't matter how much money you give no one will take the job here.

I think its because gameguru is more of a hobby to everyone here and they want to forcus on what they want to do before we go back to our crap jobs lol

also you need a lot of skills for what your asking and theres prob like 1 or 2 people if any at all that know how to do what your asking here


I would put money in the pot so we could have a better tool if we had people that wanted to imporve it and had the skills to do so, sadly only one of those things are really ever true

I never said programming wasn't a skill, I just said that what makes Amen a fantastic programmer is his innate talent for maths and problem-solving, that's what sets him apart from most/all the other programmers around here. Just like your ability to use Photoshop (or whichever art package you use) is a skill, not a talent; it's learned, practiced, and now utilised to allow you to express your true innate talent, which I assume is creativity.

AE

Nevin! Your heart is in the right place. Lee and Rick might produce. They have experience and an extreme financial benefit if the thing succeeds.

Programming is a learned skill. But it is based on something that is innate to the individual. Just as a particular language is not natural (i.e. a baby is not born speaking English), but learned, it is still based on something innate to the individual. It's why you can't teach a dog English and expect that dog to understand the nuances of thousands of words. It doesn't have the innate ability to comprehend nor to communicate in such a manner. Even with people, when they learn a language, not all are great at it and not everyone, no matter how learned, are going to become Hemingway or a Shakespeare. That's because, even though the language is learned, people like Shakespeare had an innate ability that aided them, causing them to take to the learned language better than others. Then they applied this ability via language (communication of some kind, like writing).

Programming is a learned skill. Yes. And anyone can be taught to program. But a person without an innate ability RELATING somehow to programming will never rise to the level of a "Hemingway" of programming. Learned ability, coupled with a level of genius that lends itself toward that learned ability, makes for someone who has the potential to be great at that skill ... if they choose to apply it. So, yes, you learn to program. Even so, what separates out those that struggle with it from those who excel at it (and all those in-between) is innate ability, coupled with learning and practice.

I had a friend who had an innate ability toward numbers. He was tested as a genius. But his genius only seemed to manifest with numbers. I don't pretend to know what part of the brain deals with that or how that all works because, well, numbers are learned, too. In any case, in the early grades (early grade school) he came to his teacher all excited because he had calculated an easy way to determine the circumference of a circle. The teacher looked at what he had done and said, "Oh, this is called Pi." He'd never heard of it before and, frankly, was a bit upset that what he'd discovered already existed. The point here is this kid's innate ability drove him and at an early age he had created Pi ... all by himself. He and I both learned math (numbers aren't exactly innate). He excelled due to his own innate ability with numbers. So, even though math is also a learned skill, he excelled due to a talent - what he was born with.

Art is also a learned skill, like programming and like math and like languages. And while everyone draws, not everyone draws well. Those who do draw well do so because they have practiced repeatedly. Even if they did not go to school for it, they've still studied. They've looked at their own hand, looked at how the fingers are shaped, and drew that on a piece of paper. They've taken photos of faces and sketched them. Or they've taken comics and anime and drawn from that. It's a form of study. There are those who excel at art without having to go to school and there are those who cannot draw a stick figure, no matter how much they try to draw. What's the difference? It's an innate ability, some form of hand-eye coordination coupled with a greater ability to observe, I suppose.

It doesn't matter what one does, it all ties back to how we are wired in the brain. Some even walk better and easier than others do to having a better coordination that others. It may not be much of a talent, but it's there. Some are naturally more athletic. Some are naturally good with science. Everything we do has a natural connection to our brain and body somewhere, coupled with learning and practice. Basketball is not natural. We invented the game. But some have a more natural ability that helps them to play better than most and, when coupled with learning and practice, they become great at the game.

What you're missing, Wizard, is that everything ties into the mind at some point. And if a person shows a personal aptitude toward something, it's because their brain is better wired for such things. It's not like there is a section for "programming" in the brain, but whatever is there naturally can help someone to excel at a learned task (like programming) while others will flounder (like at programming). Like I said, I can do the basics of programming, but a lot of it's beyond me. I've tried several times and just ... fail. I'm not stupid. I'm just not wired for it. As a result, it's not easy for me to pick up and start. Art is the same for some people. Some take to it and some don't. There is a natural component (something in the brain) that aids this, but it still needs training to become good at it.

If programming were purely a learned skill (no talent/innate ability involved) then if you took 10 programmers and told them to program something, they would all end up with basically the same lines of code. But because there is some innate ability involved, you would most likely end up with a few varieties of the program with some of them being better than the others. This difference would be due to applying what they've learned creatively (based on an innate ability).

Not just one thing, several things combined.

The ability to think logically, the ability to think laterally and the ability to see complex patterns are amongst them. I take all these for granted, always have, I wasn't taught them and when the subjects came up at school I was sitting there rather confused that my time was being wasted on things that were so simple and obvious!

Art otoh I just never got at all, why people got so excited about a rather crap picture of some sunflowers or a wonky watch just left me pitying them.

Yep. And that's the TALENT side of things (as it relates to programming). It's NOT just a LEARNED skill. It's a learned skill BACKED by some serious stuff going on NATURALLY in the brain.

anyone want a doughnut? I love doughnuts .

Nevin (clairvoyant and soothsayer):
How about Lee take the pool of donated money and use some to give out as prizes to programmers that solve specific problems. That might hasten things a bit. GitHub and Lee seem to have a special relationship. A viable program like Lee has been talking about in his YouTube videos would produce several millionaires including Lee by association. The end product is what is needed (pleaded for).

Being a newbe I made all the hard disk reading heads for the world 1978/1982.

For the group who like special sayings on their posts:
Those whining it can't be done are usually interrupted by someone doing it!

Guys, seems to me they're trying to make a focused product that's great for their portfolios, awesome for us to use, and gets the job (whatever it is) done. It isn't going to be what you want, most likely, but it will be what TGC wants - and some people will use it professionally. That's it. I think it'd be more helpful to let them get their work done, which currently is quite hefty, and not continually add luxury features to what GG Max is.

For me, if this is a stable lightweight 3d adventure game engine with great terrain and asset tools, and remains ROYALTY FREE - then I am getting the product I paid for. Key words: Stable and royalty free. Whatever TGC makes is what I'll be limited to, which is fine because that's the deal. That's why I get a royalty free tool to use as an artist.

I keep getting the vibe that people want this to become Unity/Unreal/Godot type tool. Those exist, and have their own levels of royalties to deal with. Godot is great and open, but if you depend on other programmers you are going to have to deal with their own royalty demands. This is regular and a-ok grown up work type stuff that is being valued here. GG Max is a wonderful royalty free lightweight game engine tool that seems perfect for artists like me (GG Max isn't my only royalty free A+ engine choice either).

To me, what GG Max is slated to be is nearly perfect, and I'm not really on-board with adding more and more features that try to make GG Max some AAA corporate game engine with ridiculous amounts of scripting. That's a different kind of game-making and already has very lively and active healthy communities - but those engines are unreal, unity, and godot. There are even others, so I'd advise people to decide if they're stuck trying to backseat-drive GG Max's development.

It should be clear that helping fund this project really is the most important and grown up thing to value, because it is a fine project as-is. We don't need to keep redefining GG Max, we need to let it come to life. I'd also like Lee and the others to focus on bringing what they've sold people like me on to life. If I'm short-sold on getting a solid 3d royalty free game engine that's easy to use as an artist, that' be more tragic than if GG Max gets a highway generator.

Lol that that is me in a nutshell . While in no way a fan of abstract art, modern art of splashing paint on a canvas and calling it a master piece is lost on me.Prefer interesting shapes and order with balance, with focus on asymmetry and structural depth, while it doesn't have to be photo realistic it needs to serve a purpose or create a focal point in whatever I create.One of the reason I mostly and only focused on level design, have no desire for character/weapon design or modeling/animation that is an art in it self.

But yes I look at a sunflower from another perspective, what shapes it is made out of and then imagine how I would go about creating it in 3D,same applies to any object I see in real life.The most interesting object I have created for gameguru is the hagia sofia



Extremely interesting building with lots of different shapes, you don't exactly have access to every nook and cranny and limited angles and having to wing it most of the time, while considering various angles, lots of symmetry and asymmetry features.Keeping polygons in check and having to sacrifice quite a bit in the end for gameguru was rather disappointing.But fun little project, but like I said brain is wired way differently to appreciate the flow, shape and design of it, it is quite different from craft work like programming, but surprisingly also contains quite a bit of math in the 3d space and visual problem solving.You are definitely more sensitive to patterns and always actively trying to hide them the less visible the patterns the more attractive the art ends up being by adding imperfections.

Nothing wrong with coconuts, Anyone upset you calling them that are quite capable of responding.
My response was towards no one interested in contributing which is far from the case as I explained.

I can see you have been a member for 12 years but but maybe not so much of a presence here. if you had you would know we had a donation system some time back to help with development and it did not work. In fact it caused more problems than it helped with.

The guys have a lot of time in on the project. About 10 months I think. Their plans are fantastic but I understand the time it will take to program it all and get the bugs out. I didn't realize you guys had tried a "bonus" system before. I waited for Game Guru Classic to get to a point where I could make commercial games with it but it never got there and I thru in the towel. I realize what I can achieve if these guys ever get Game Guru Max to the point they want it to be. I did supply some capital for Game Guru Classic and this time I was going to keep my powder dry but I came up with this "bonus" idea last night. Their basic concept is fantastic but they need to keep their nose to the grindstone and finish the project in a reasonable amount of time. There are new gentries of games in my mind's eye. One catches on and it would be fantastic. I probably have 15 years into Iclone. Same results. They never solved their rendering speed problem and that stopped it from being used commercially.
I never met a coconut I didn't like. Thanks for the info.
Over in Thailand when someone screws up they say their coconut went bad. In the mean time I am going to do the cheap things to build up two of my machines. SSD'S and so on.

I contributed by being an early adapter by paying for the software (MAX). I contributed by reporting bugs. I contributed by asking questions and making suggestions.

As different as engineering is to decorating in fact.

i try to do both jack of all master of none as they say

Well behind every good crafting tool is a great engineer ''cough'' ''cough''

God was good to me......I never found anything I could do!

for me code is easyier

Nevin:
One of the things I was thinking of doing when the guys get the basic program going.
A random number generator so when a level is loaded the bad guys could be spawned in possibly four (1 thru4) different locations. This would make the game different every time it's played. Thus the a level wouldn't have to have a "boss" on every level to keep people playing. Do you think you could do? Random generator could also be used to make the bad guys do different (strange) things.
All it takes is one good game that's a hit and there will be plenty of money to go around.