I think thats where it differs this time round. Usually it was keep the community happy and give them a bit of what they want leaving so much unfinished and releasing products before they were ready.

Ironically this time round many just want them to take their time and get it right.
Perhaps we have learnt our lessons from the past rather than vice versa and most of us very relaxed and happy to wait and not rant and rave that we want it now .... Ok not all but the majority

Max has a lot of potential but it was a significant decision to move to an open release date and start redesigning things.

We need to understand the implications of this and as things currently stand it is unclear. There was a clear scope for Max at the beginning and the release date was based on this so are we talking 3 months, 6 months or maybe even longer.

I can understand that some people will ask for a refund in this situation, especially given the track record of Reloaded / GG classic. I am going to wait for a while but the progress has clearly slowed down in the last 2 months.

We can say forget about Max and just go and use other software for the moment but that is not a good message for customers. There needs to be a big effort to get confidence back now and keep people from moving on.

I am afraid you are right. However, as nice the GH project board is, it does not properly allow to track velocities, shifts in velocities and estimate bleeding, not even trying to go into release projections. It is super basic, but agreed, better than nothing.



Agreed here. I personally have the patience of a glacier, but from a business perspective and taken the target audience into consideration, there should be always some visible momentum and clear communicated goalposts. Even without a date, we have seen that people don't appreciate it seeing some progress on the grass while the terrain module is unusable. Which doesnt mean you need to shoft your prios, but you need to communicate why you don't.

Yeah exactly.

We have gone into redesign on a number of areas when there are still things completely missing like terrain nodes or broken like saving maps which isn't ideal when we are talking about adding physics to grass.

I will wait to see how things progress because thats all I can do now. I'm not in a rush for Max but I would like to see the Beta's getting more stable with some clear communication about what is being fixed or added in each build.

It has been 2 months since Beta 3 and all I can expect to see in Beta 4 at the moment is a redesigned UI. At the very least there should be proper release notes so we can see what was changed after each release.

Release? There has been no release. They've offered alphas and betas to early adapters, but these are not releases per se. They are tests. Nothing more. Of course it's not possible to do anything with the alphas and betas. There are things that simply are not implemented yet. There are things that are not completely hooked up yet. We are not supposed to be able to create things with these, but only to test things. And, then, when testing, only test in those areas that they have functional, like the importer using Assimp. If you're testing terrain, you're wasting your time because it's not completed. If you're mucking around with grass, then you're wasting your time because it's being redone. The only thing you are meant to do with these "releases" is 1) test things to report issues on what IS implemented and 2) have a bit of fun while waiting for the ACTUAL RELEASE.

I understand that you're disappointed because they didn't get the product out when they originally thought they would. But if they had released it to please people like you, then it would have been a giant disaster. It was not ready. They knew it and they did the right thing by telling us about it and taking steps to better ensure a good release when MAX is finally ready to be released.

Does anyone know what is expected in Beta 4?

Are we just waiting for all the UI redesign to be done and the auto updater.

Waiting for that too, and since I know there is someone working on bug fixes, so I wait for a lot of bug-free features, if so, this might help me a lot on my project.

For one thing, Preben has applied a fix regarding the issue with animating doors - really looking forward to that.
Hopefully the issue some are having with lockups will be fixed as well - an obvious required fix before another release.
Perhaps terrain and grass will be good enough for serious testing as well - it makes it look like outdoors will be awesome!

But perhaps more than likely the reworked UI will be the focus?

- - - - -

We will of course need to have patience.

If you want to see just how easy TGC makes game dev, then load up UE or Unity and start learning how those tools work. They produce super beautiful results - but the learning curve is there for sure.

In a previous post I said:

But while I still intend to learn UE I am not sure it will ever be as comfortable to use as Max is thus far.
TGC products make game dev fun, rather than feeling like work.

If TGC start taking shortcuts to get a release out - just to please users - then we may as well just move on to other tools. We do not want another Classic!

Let's hope Max becomes the tool we want it to be.

Just make Max great!

OldFlak....

Yes TGC makes game development fun.

In Unity and UE4 it feels like you are going to work for the day and some days you don't make any progress.

Max is already a lot of fun to use and felt like it was getting close to being ready for a release but now we are going through a redesign which is likely to set the project back around 9-12 months.

We will see how Beta 4 is shaping up which will give us some indication of how things are going since the big announcements.

Hmmm ... I like MAX and I like the idea of what MAX could be ... will be ... but development in Unreal is actually really fun and not all that complicated. I love creating materials and seeing the cool effects I can come up with ... something we won't be able to ever do in MAX. There's just so much I can do there. It is fun. But MAX is a different tool with different ideas about how to go about things. It will be very limited compared to other tools, like Unreal and Unity, but MAX's focus and simplicity has it's own appeal, to be sure.

i can only see UE4 being fun for artists. seeing your models in the engine with AAA rendering and lighting etc.

For anything which requires code its going to be a different story and those blueprints don't help all that much as you almost need as much knowledge to rig all of those up correctly as you do to write the code.

I would agree UE has made strides to make things easier than they used to be but its still super hard. You can make a fantastic looking scene for sure but putting even a small level together with actual gameplay, game logic and AI is a totally different story.

You might be able to get some frameworks from the store but then you are tied into that framework and you may not be able to expand on what it does out of the box. UE is even more prone to asset flipping than GG if your not an artist.

TGC have a massive gap in the market to exploit with Max and you can already see the product there, they just need to make it actually work, include the stuff thats missing and get rid of any show stopping bugs.

Well, this isn't the forum to talk about Unreal, but I would say what you've said is not completely correct. I was able to put together some game play elements with Blueprints, and I am not a programmer. Also, there are Blueprints that are free and those that are for sale that provide various levels of functionality - AI, RPG elements, FPS elements, and more. Those "frameworks" you mentioned? Most of them come with a complete set of tutorials teaching you how to modify them to your heart's content.

Unreal is not just for artists. It's one of the most used engines for AAA games out there.

I agree. MAX can fill a gap in the market. However, the problem with engines like MAX is their limitations. If you don't want to create a simple FPS, then you have to jump through hoops in order to create something the kit was not designed to handle. Fortunately, from what Lee has been posting, it looks like MAX will support a bit more than a simple FPS, such as his request for RPG information.

Usually I am the one who come here around this time of each year and complain, kicking, screaming, crying and I sorry to see that GGM is not even released yet but already becoming a disappointment for some and people considering to ask for refund.

I think the most important thing need to realise is that GG never be a pro tool, so if anyone is serious about making a commercial 3D title, then need to look elsewhere, GG never be able to compete with the power of more successful engines and you never be able to make Star Citizen or Fallout 4 or GTA V in GG. it would be nice to have all the features so we can drag drop computer terminals, switches, ships, vehicles, dialogs, crafting in to an open-word map and even put a VR head set on and show Star Citizen, Fallout 4, and GTA who is the boss here but it is never going to happen. It is not the goal here. TGC does not have the resources and talents, the master minds who are not simply very good at programming but very good at innovation, finding solutions for problems that nobody else solved before. Those people are rare and very expensive to hire. So GG never be one of those engines and Lee always be driven by his passion to make his own, make it him self, now I understand and he has my respect for it. In a way I feel sorry for Lee had to scrap his own renderer that he was working on for so many years and probably had lot of fun developing it, only to please us demanding better visuals for our commercial dreams but here we are again, it is still not good enough and never be.

What GameGuru is really good at and always be is being the most simple to use engine because this is what GG and FPSC is all about and Lee has my respect for being so passionate about this project and keep going forward believing in his dream of making the most simple game development tool exist and GG is really unique in that regard. There is nothing like it out there. Even if you put it against Unity and Unreal dev kits, GG is the most simple to use and the most fun to play with and the reality is, it is never meant to be more than that. However, the shiny screenshots and trailers make the wrong impression and obviously for marketing reasons TGC need to make the impression it is a serious engine because this is what people want, nobody want an educational toy but this is what GG is, an educational toy for people new to the world of game making and I think it should be told to everyone and be clear about it.

Maybe if GGM get ever released without being already ruined by bad reviews and bad reputation, maybe TGC should try to be honest and advertise it as "this is for the kids and hobbyist to play with, get creative and share your creation with friends and family". The nice screenshots, trailers still going to make it attractive for people thinking about making commercial projects and artists need an engine to tell a story, but if it was openly advertised everywhere for the kids and hobbyist only, nobody has the rights to leave negative reviews for not being a pro tool. it would lead to getting better reviews, better reputation, better community with more realistic requests and one day, may lead to a better financial position for TGC to begin to work on the "Pro" version that everybody want right now since FPSC v1 was released. But we are not there yet and probably never be for a few more years. So I would recommend to everyone to accept this including TGC and consider to stop pretending that we have something Pro going on here and it may lead to a more happy place for all of us.

I know the screenshots are pretty but please let's be realistic everyone, including whoever in charge over marketing at TGC.
TGC just don't have the resources to develop the Pro tool for the Pro users and pretending did not work so far, so how about trying to be honest for once? It is not beta, it is not alpha, it is not early access, it is for the kids and hobbyist to have fun and maybe the story tellers. How about that?

"It is not beta, it is not alpha, it is not early access"
Seeing as there is NOT a standalone feature yet on MAX is a little alarming
and agrees with what you have stated there. That is the part that I'm sure will
need vigorous testing before release, as I state below.

"it is for the kids and hobbyist to have fun and maybe the story tellers. How about that?"

I'm hoping MAX is a little more than that, but after all the bells and whistles in the
UI, and automatic stuff like character creator, and etc, it all comes down to stand-
alone integrity. (Don't know how the big AAA engines handle their standalone
compiling-- it seems like they must get it right without too many issues though
or I think we would hear of that reputation.) Standalone in GG has been *almost*
good when only stock resources are used. There should be some more compiling
checks and re-checks to get everything on the compile just as ready and full as the
test mode. 64 bit memory in and of itself SHOULD help out greatly in that regard.
But standalone testing phase might in itself take a few weeks...

Alot of mention of Unity and Unreal, but there are a few other options.
There's Godot and Lumberyard. https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/userguide/lumberyard-intro.html

Lumberyard looks and sounds good, but all those are just new engines to learn,
with new techniques and new language. Lumberyard does support lua but I
don't know if they include pre-coded lua functions like TGC have put into GG?

My head turns to mush when I try to look at all those other U.I. So GG UI is the
key to my being here, and I've learned a little GG lua. Hoping MAX escapes the
womb soon in vigorous health!

This puzzles me. Granted, English is not my first language, perhaps I misunderstand some subtle tones, but after reading through ~ 500 posts in 14 different Threads I haven't found a single soul demanding "Release it now, no matter how unfinished it may be". I also fail to see ANY post with the message "Release it NOW to make me happy".
So your "what if" basically relates to an "if" no one ever asked for.

What I see is a lot of people being sympathetic and showing various levels of patience towards a project that has gone into a cycle of reduced scope, delays and milestones not met, topped up with worsening communication.
Actually, I am surprised HOW patient people are, especially with the CRM / PR wise almost suicidal "open release date" announcement.
Nono, the guys here in the board are largely alright - and have very valid points.
When I look into recent threads, the only things that are asked for are absolutely understandable requests like "please can you work on your broken main module A instead of polishing the working feature B?!" or questions regarding the next releases, a vague roadmap, order of priorities.



This is a dangerous line of communication I would advise against. Why? Because any entry-level no-frills consumer product advertising like that raises the bar of expectations in certain fields, especially reliability, stability and ease of use.
If it is called a semi-pro or specialized tool, you can say things like "oh, you have to touch LUA to make anything decent" or "after hitting the "save standalone" button, you still need to do some manual configuration yourself". Everyone understands.
If you say "this is an app that allows kids to make games easily and share with their friends" the expectation is that exactly that will work out of the box without any additional knowledge.

Yeah, you're missing it. It's not that some are not saying, "Release it now!" What they are saying, though, is that they are upset because they believe a promise was not fulfilled. In other words, they say the initial release date of September was a "promise" and since Lee and Co. didn't deliver on that "promise" (i.e. the product was NOT completed and was NOT released) then they are upset and may even believe that MAX is in a never-ending cycle that will ensure it never gets fully released. So, while they may not have uttered the actual words, "release it now", some are upset that it was not released, see that as having broken a "promise", and, therefore, are upset and, yes, some even want a refund as a result.

When I said that if they would have released it back in September would have been a disaster, it was not because people were screaming, "release it now". It was basically saying, "You're upset because they didn't release it in September like you wanted? Well, IF they would have, it would have been a disaster!"

Yeah nobody wants Max to be released unfinished.

I think we just need a bit more information about what is happening at the moment and priorities. We've been told the UI is being redesigned but some updates on the bigger issues would also be appreciated.

Now we are in an open release date it would be good if the individual betas can be broken down so we know what is expected to come in each one and when they are expected to land. I don't think that is an unreasonable thing to ask for.

The communication around Max was very good in the months leading up to the original release date but since the open release date announcement things have gone a bit quiet and the live streams too.

I understand the team are taking a step back and reworking things but it would be great to have a better view on overall progress. We have no idea what is planned for Beta 4 or when this will land for example.

Do not confuse Game maker for everyone as something negative because it is not, if an inexperienced child can make a game with GG it is a good sign of it.

GG AND GGMax each in its own way, are tools that with a little experience and knowledge in LUA, allow you to do great things.

In fact, they are the perfect tool since it allows you to evolve from zero to an acceptable level (just my case, LOL), even a very high level and this must be taken into account.

GG and GGMax teach you the basics, then it's up to each of you if you want to evolve or settle for what you have, the fact is that if you want to evolve you will have to learn many more things, you will have to spend more time, You just have to be willing to do it, but I think this also happens in many moments of real life, so it is nothing new, or at least it should not be.

Ah, I see. It's just that your assumption regarding "what upsets people" is plain wrong here.
See, the % of those actually being upset because of the original push from September to December was marginal, almost close to zero.
The vast majority was actually quite happy about that!
It was the move to this vague "open release date" without having anything like a roadmap or an order of priorities to cling to.
Go through the boards history, and you will see that yourself.

What you're missing is that each one that is upset mentions the September release date, then they mention the December release date, then they go to the open release date. It's compiled. So, yes, the open release date was the straw that broke the camels back for a few, so to speak. But that was not the point. It wasn't about any of that. If you read through the boards, you most likely won't find that the ones who were approving of the date changes and the open release date are the same people as the ones who are now upset. So, no matter how many people were approving of the previous has no bearing on what I was stating. Not sure why you're making a big deal out of this. In any case, I was addressing ONE person, not everyone, and addressing something that ONE person had said. That is it. Nothing more.

Alright. It was just easily misread as "targeted to everyone unhappy about the current release plans". Thanks for clarification.

I personally don't have an issue with delays per se, as they are part of every software dev project I know. I would just prefer a cleaner and clearer communication and proper expectation management.

Max has the potential to be a genuine alternative to Unity for making FPS games.

The wicked engine integration has gone very well and the results are really impressive. Hopefully we will see the momentum pick up again once the UI redesign is complete and they can get back to working on core things like the stability and terrain etc.

There was no live stream last week so we basically have a 2 week progress report coming on Wednesday.

Thanks for the aclaration @Argent_Arts

So, Now I understand you did not read all the posts.

You said:



I write a big post but I decided not to do it, because I do not need to justify myself. I am really offended by that comment.

First you do not know me. Maybe I not understand the intention of this sentence "But if they had released it to please people like you, " Sorry for that. But I am like everyone. I started commenting here sayng: "I understand people who claim for a refund". From the begining I said only that. I also said that I still trust TGC, but for sure they did not comply with the information they provide in their web.

So, please take care about the things you said. read all the post. I made sime suggestions, I express also, that ok, they can move the date as soon they are still providing some versions to try (at the end this is not happening now).

I was surprised that there are people who find it difficult to understand that this is simply a transaction, a contract between two parties, and that people can protest if they consider that their part has not been fulfilled.

This is so simple to settle saying: "Well, yes, you are within your rights, I would recommend that you wait but they have not actually complied."

Can they change the date of the release if they thing it is much better for the product? Sure
Can people claim for their money in this case? Absoluttly.
Could people request a good roadmap to prepare its projects? Yes,
Should TGM provide this roadmap? It is up to they.
Could people move to other engine as soon as they dont see a roadmap? It is up to each one iself.

For me it is very simple to understand,
And I am not criticizing or offending either party. I have only politely exposed some of the things that I consider TGC is not doing properly.

We need TGC to release a new version of the GGM to keep us busy playing games rather than discussing these issues.

Yeah I agree, more releases. Terrain was working at one point, for example - it'd be nice to start working on game making instead of sitting on our thumbs.

They can if they do it in a considerate fashion without flying off the handle as there is no need and it wont magically change the result.
It did not make the deadline for many reasons and 2020 has not exactly been a normal year for many people causing chaos for everyone in the real world and still is ( why do people forget that ) but like any transaction you can pull out with a full refund if your really that bothered and then your sorted ... Easy.

It wont get it done any faster either way and when it is released chances are ( depending how much you paid ) you may want to repurchase but it will just cost more. I purchased the first day and that moneys forgotten. For the sake of a few beers or a KFC a refund seems pointless for me. Not that i want one anyway.

Yes, I have also totally forgotten about paying around 14 quid or whatever it was months ago, I guess I can understand some people frustration when they paid 50 or whatever the price was recently when pre ordering. When u pay money you kinda want something in return. Well you have , early alpha and betas. No one was obligated to pre order. I'm happy to wait and in TGC defense they are having to get to grips with wicked engine, new ui and terrain system. That's a lot to contend with.

Who said we can't make Star Citizen in Max !

Precisely for this reason, there may be people for whom this crisis has made them consider that 25 dollars is now more important.
I keep seeing closed businesses around me ... Let's not forget that people from many places and countries enter here. For you, for me, 25 dollars in February can be already forgotten. And it's something I don't like to say out loud, because there may be people who are scared or worried about their future. And could feel worried or sad when they read this. Not only has it been difficult for TGC to meet deadlines. It has also been horrible for families who have been able to lose their jobs and have seen investments without fruit yet.

We have to analyze things from all points of view and understand others. I talk in general, I know in your case you are able to do it.

This is exactly the problem in my opinion, yes GG has the potential, always have, it is looks good, there are some seriously talented artists around here who build beautiful, nicely designed environments that seems to be very deep and you just want to go and explore see what is behind those mountains but when it comes to actual mechanics, gameplay, performance, GG hit the ground face first. Max will be no exception, It is looks stunning and VR ready but as some people stated, many may be forced to purchase a very expensive gaming PC to be able to use Max. Now some might say that it is okay just look how great the visuals are and VR, but no I have no problem running Unreal and VR titles on my PC but GG Classic is barely running, people with 5 times better graphics than I have claim to run Max at 10 FPS. You can hope and say it is WIP and VR and advanced rendering, but no, it is lack of resources and lack of talents in the dev team and it is never going to change unless TGC receive some really huge at leas 6 digit long investment from someone. We can no longer hope Lee can pull the rabbit out from his £20k hat that can compete against any technology was developed from millions of £££. It is not going to happen, the sooner people realise this and the sooner TGC admit it and stop pretending Max is going to be a Pro tool, the better it will be for everyone. But it is just my opinion.

By the way, Star Citizen means extremely detailed open-world environment where you can interact with almost everything including computer terminals in VR and also in online multiplayer. GG never be able to support anything like this as long the budget is only 5 digit long. Please be realistic. The video is nice by the way as always.


Honestly, I believe it was the original idea but the hunger of this community for more is forced TGC to put the bar higher but they don't have the resources to pull this off and I am not talking about money only, but also lack of talented programmers. I don't want to criticise the skills of the dev team, but be honest, you are not going to get very good programmers for £500. really good programmers cost more than the entire budget of this project.


It is even more important when you are developing a commercial game and you may even invest lots of money in to level designers, scripters, story writers, music composers..etc. I remember few years ago. I did come across a YouTube video where an adult guy did literally cry because he did finish his game in GG, did invest all his savings in to licenses of music, art, hired scripters, only to find out on release day the game did crash for almost everybody except on that few PC he was testing during development. The guy was broken, extremely frustrated and I did feel genuinely sorry for him, the game did look really good and fun it was original and well designed and could have been the very first commercial GG game worth playing I have ever seen and no one would have ever known it was a GG game because of all the custom bits and good design. I don't remember his name or the title of the video or the game, I remember people told him in the comments to contact TGC and ask for help but I guess he did not, he was just extremely disappointed, broken both financially and emotionally and I think he just give up.

So if I need to pick one, I would say stability is less important when you make something for kids, for fun and EXTREMELY important when you target people trying to make a commercial projects. So pretending something Pro is in the making here that could compete with Unity is not honest, there is nothing pro here, nothing to compete with Unity. There is potential, yes I totally agree but TGC do not have the resources to pull this off. So better to be honest for once, forget about making commercial games in Max and TGC should stop pretending a pro tool is in the making here. Maybe it is the intention, but it is never going to happen. The sooner people and TGC realise this, the better for everyone.

Some don't do it for money btw, a bit like really good teachers.

Some of the best programmers, ones I look up to (and there aren't many of them I can assure you!), are a bit like the best mountaineers. They do it because they can.

Obviously beer tokens are always appreciated though.

"I would say stability is... EXTREMELY important when you target people trying to make a commercial projects."

But of course. That's my own personal concern, and I hope something they pay
some special attention to before too long.

Now, talking about "paying..."
"GG never be able to support anything like this as long the budget is only 5 digit long."

This is where I get confused. The budge it just $1. Why we bring up a budget?
Why we talking about what *it* cannot do. TGC are in charge of their strategy
to go about being mindful of their own budget. I don't expect Lee or Preben to
create my game. I ask for a few things that will assist and be nice and handy,
in the form of scriptability mostly (myself), but not the whole game complete.
Now look, they are going over the UI, to make that smooth and shiny, so again
their budget is in their hands. I think they will release before bankruptcy.

To me, just ONE thing in GGM has made all the difference; 64 bit. >When< TGC team
get it efficient and tied all up and wrapped with a nice bow on top... I think the 64 bit
will be the tool that props it up way above the Jr. engine. Of course there's also these
tremendous other helps; expandable terrain, multiple grasses, CC reloaded, dynamic
lighting* etc. VR might be for some people. The drawback (well asset for some users)
will be the computer specs-- IE robust gr. card.

*honestly haven't seen any reference videos highlighting dynamic shadows...
but I think that is an expected feature- am I right?