@Syncro...stated a bit back..



https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/221710

latest newsletter just stated.,,,,



once again.....have things been changed...or........another misunderstanding ?

UNIRD12B

No Misunderstanding.
Here in the UK as from the 1st June its all getting back to normal, Restrictions being Lifted, ( some already have ) People now allowed to return to work, schools opening, shops opening etc.
Its still only gone from 45 to 40% off when it should really be at 30% off in June so still at a better discount.
And if you want a good deal..
Grab an early Bird here ..
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gamegurumax#/

The pandemic isn't over but lockdown is easing.... pandemic will be around for some time...

Yes I think I may have misphrased when I said Pandemic over. I meant that as when things get back to normality and lockdowns lifted. It Could be a few years before the actual Pandemic is over.

Be thankful the discount lasted this long. Max is looking useful

MAX is already too cheap even without the discount - TGC should back themselves if they think they can make MAX better than Classic.

Sadly Covid-19 isn't going away any time soon.

OldFlak....

I agree, but sort of disagree?
For me GG is awesome, even if it is not 100% usable as yet, without a lot of knowledge. Even then you may have issues on different specs.
However, there are many free engines out there today, including Wicked, which Max is based on and the obvious names of course.
This makes any paid engine far easier to criticise. Max, should make it easier to make games. What people don't want is the almost ability to make games! Which we have at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame GG for this in itself, but I do blame it for not having decent instructions

If GG had a guide written by someone who knows the ins and outs it would fare a lot better. I often think it's the ambiguity of GG that in one way holds me entranced, and in others drives me nuts. I honestly think TGC really underestimates the power of good documentation. They seem to think it can be added later when it's done. Whereas, it should be updated as things progress. Ensuring nothing gets completely missed along the way. There are a ton of features available that many do not even imagine are available! GG suffers from this lack of general knowledge.

Anyway, if MAX is fully documented and all features are covered fully, then yes it is under valued. Otherwise no, it's the same as all other free engines that you have to look all over the place to get anywhere with. What MAX and GG need to be awesome is a great manual. Seriously, if GG had a great manual, it would already be rated as a good engine

Yeah, I agree with you there in the main. Especially documentation.

If MAX is going to be better than Classic, then it has to be a Game Maker that its target audience can make games with.
They still using the 'No coding required' tag - which is misleading imo, since it is only true for a simple zombie shooter or something of the likes, and even then the AI has not proven be reliable in the its predecessor Classic. So that has to be improved upon.

But to me regardless of current issues, GG is a lot more appealing than many of the other engines out there, even the free ones by giants, simply because of its approach to building levels. It sort of creates a sense of control because you just go about making your levels in a more intuitive way, due to stuff not being hidden behind a plethora of windows and tabs (although I do think it has room for a little more complexity in that regard).

TGC should take that and run with it. And charge a decent price for it, rather than give it away.
If people could make and release semi-complex games without the need to code, surly they would be happy to pay for that.
So don't just make it look better.
- Add things that make it easier to make games.
- - - HUDs, Start Menus, AI that works ok.
- Everything in setup and settings should be accessible from the editor
- Add stuff and document it at the same time
- Reliable standalones

I just hope we are not going down the same path we did with Classic - keep making it look better, but not making it better at making games easier.

But early days for MAX yet, so we will see where it goes - still too cheap tho

OldFlak....

Too many scripting limitations in Classic to rate it above a 6/10-- that's with a
good manual- sorry! And I heard Lee proudly announce that he has "no plans"
to add to the lua functions in MAX! Yay!
It's probably a 7.5/10 for a precursory game engine introductory tool for
classrooms and first timers before graduating to the full on production engines
of known popularity-- but would it be better just to ascend up to the big guys
in the first place? Choices, choices.

It's good for learning on because of the simplistic UI, that's why I'm here actually.
But it's these simplistic limits that keep it low on the go- to for flexibility and higher
tier games with polished features.
Simplicity makes it easier of course, and it's simplicity encircles it's limits-- the reason
it is filed as a good early learning tool!

So the challenge would be to have a flexible, powerful engine with the simplicity of
use that GG aims at. I see no plans mentioned of for that. Visuals don't fulfill greater
script flexibility (game-types) and crucial game need features.

I thought Script limitations were only set by the coders abilities ?
What Amen, Smallg etc achieve is incredible and way above average.
I personally think GG and Max are very well Priced .. I paid more for my Commodore 64 and Amiga game creation tools back in the day . The 3D Construction Kit retailed at £24.99 for the 8-bit version, and £49.99 for 16-bit version and that was 1992

@Syncromesh. There wasn't much choice back then Now we have loads of different options. Of course the big engines that people always mention are much more difficult to actually make something useful. I am a little biased though, as I've been using GG so long now it's ingrained
@GubbyBlips. Not sure there are that many limits with code, as Syncro says that is very much down to the individuals coding skills. I do however stick by my manual statement. Sure there's guides that cover basics and such, but nothing really in depth. Nothing in the class of my Spectrum Manual from 1983 or so Well, I haven't stumbled on any yet.

I have most success with GG when I write my own scripts from scratch generally, when you try to script alongside GG's features it's always a struggle to work out what is interfering with what. Sometimes you find solutions by pure luck (stopping animation to allow you to play an animation for one, even if you have never played the animation, which is what I call a bug that has never been fixed) Sometimes you find out commands that were not listed in the global. Lot's of things in the FPE can affect things as well and even if you find a list of the possible commands, there's still a little bit of guess work involved.

Still GG is still fun! When things go well ;p

Wondering who that might be. When Lee was doing live twitch videos even he was struggling getting things work, it was actually the first thing that was put me off, I mean if the guy who made this from scratch don't know how to get things right then what are my chances?

And now we are using a 3rd party engine that don't even he knows really well how it works, I bet he is using it with the same hope he was using DarkClouds, DarkLights, DarkAI and DarkTerrain(?) in GG, to finish it faster with the least amount of effort but then he was struggling with maintenance and he will struggling with Max too. I mean in the alpha 2 release topic there was people already reported much better performance with vanila wicked engine than the Max version. I have the feeling it is going to be a mess just like always.

Otherwise I totally agree, there is a giant potential in Max and if we consider potential, Max could worth a lot more when it is finished but "the almost ability to make games" that always described this engine since FPSC X9 does not worth the money considering all the free options capable to make games. This is if we are looking for an engine to make games.

To be honest I am no longer expecting to be able to make games with Max, but I look at it as a game compete with garry's mod, if I compare it to a game where the primary goal is to build weird staff and then play it and share it so others can play it too, it is awesome and totally worth the current price tag. The only thing I am worry about now is performance. The system requirements of Max is going to be ridiculous I can tell already, I mean people with cards cost $700-$1000 running the rendering test of a small room at 100-200 FPS is a total joke especially when people say that it is running at "solid 80 FPS" on a config cost $1200 at least. Solid right? This is epic XD I honestly can't take any more.

Yes, there were. But I don't think that's a fair comparison. It seems that Lee had the settings really high (such as MSAA set to 8) to stress test the alpha. My impression is this alpha was not meant to run well, but to push the lower-end systems he intends to support. When those who are getting better frame rates running The Wicked Engine (not the MAX alpha), do they have all the same settings (MSAA set to 8, etc.)? Because, if they don't, then of course they will get better frame rates. Also, are they running The Wicked Ending at full-screen or in a window? Is it in a full-screen window (like the alpha is)? These kinds of things can have an effect on FPS.



Lee's said as much. Why reinvent the wheel if there is already a darned good wheel out there?

GG already used the industry leading open source Physics engine (i.e. Bullet) the industry leading scripting language (i.e. Lua) it was only missing a decent GUI interface, a more flexible Terrain system and decent rendering solution.

It seems to me that GG Max is a decent shot at getting those missing things, i.e. using the VRQuest GUI, Wicked engine for rendering and whatever Lee is going for in the terrain department.

The only thing really missing from the brew is people who actually know how to make video games.

Also running directly in the wikid engine you are running on a stripped down bare bones engine, running it through GGMax you are running it hooked into the GGMax system, so it will run slower because more is running in the background.

@ Dvader. I have thrown out the stock scripts also. I use the gameplayercontrol with
first person because it works unless it needs just a tweaking or two.

"I thought Script limitations were only set by the coders abilities ?"
// ?!? Okay, Yes for sure, and nope on a few for GG.

"it was only missing a decent GUI interface, a more flexible Terrain system and decent rendering solution."

We should mention 32 bit here, stand-alones that are good at kicking the bucket,
and etc. Only recently have most of the bugs been covered-- that's great.
But all of that is not specifically my point.

Of course you both should know that there's quite a few things that have been asked
for that are limited by the Hard coded functionality of GG and limited by missing
Lua Functions-- just as an example for now would be Text control options. That one
is a real headache. I've never used another engine to be honest, but there's only so
much a person can do with 7 very plain fonts! Another one is (if using stock scripts),
there was no way to live adjust GRAVITY to the player or map. The hard-coded engine
fought over the player! So you need to do your own discreet gameplayercontrol +
entity scripts. Sure, I did that-- what about others?

I could mention a few more useful things that could be freed from hard coding--
such as screen coordinates of mapped entities. How about graphics coding--
screen graphics simple geometric shapes by script. Scripted sounds independent
of files! What you guys are referring back to is (as it has always been) is a First Person
Shooter- or walking game- or (VERY limited again) for non coders and modelers--
3rd person if you want to go there-- No problem if that's all there is-- but where's
the weapons?
(( I know synchromesh you have a unique game! That's an awesome one--
you could do well with it! ))

3rd person character weapons-- I haven't gotten in trying that far because
A> don't care for weapons much, and B> I'm still bashing out scripts for my wee
menagerie of cheesy DOS style games. So are 4k visuals important for that?

I'm a fan of old DOS arcade games. GG doesn't seem to be much of a fan of them!
There's no hint to being able to script graphic shapes, sounds, pixel colors, entity
to screen coordinates, etc if you wanted to do it! And this is what I'm going to hear;
nobody cares for that!

When more GUI functionality such as properties expansion and settings are
integrated, that also will help. I remain somewhat optimistic on a few couple
more things that would go a long way to help--

lol!

Personally I think Game Guru cannot be all things to all people. It currently has three audiences who all want different things.
The product is aimed at novices to game design; it makes the basics of setting up a simple game a cinch, but it fails to deliver some basic functionality and stability in the standalones.
Then there's us artists who want a tool to display our art nicely but get baffled by scripting; it delivers mid-2000s graphics but is wrapped in an awful user experience and a terribly simplistic UI.
Then you've got coding wizards who see Game Guru as a LUA playground; it offers scope to play with LUA but has frustrating hard-coded limits, lacks basic functionalities and proper documentation, and runs said LUA often in an inefficient way (so I'm told)

About the other thing these parties can all agree on is we all want a more stable engine!

Max is attempting to address some of its predecessor's shortcomings. It promises better UI for beginners, better graphics for us artists, and some in-engine coding abilities that the codies might appreciate (though I suspect not). But it still suffers from the same identity crisis; not knowing what it wants to be. By trying to be all things to all users, it has ended up being not very good at any of them. You can see this in the Work In Progress board, once aptly described as a 'literal graveyard of abandoned projects', cut short by the limitations and idiosyncrasies of the engine.

As for whether Max is appropriately priced, I think it is, assuming it delivers a reasonably stable experience. It was nice of TGC to freeze the discount during the height of the pandemic in Europe, though I personally disgree with the ethics of the gradually-escalating price pre-release. I will gladly pay the full asking price on launch if it delivers a stable experience.

AE

FALSE... youi're that "people"

The trouble is, those people know how to make games are constantly being ignored by the devs and take GG in to a direction that doesn't suit game developers and so game developers choose to go with an other engine and the only people left here are artist who don't make games but nice level designs with no context and coders who again, don't make games just using GG as a Lua playground as well told by Avenging Eagle

Just to remind you and others, GG was released and developed with no input asked from this community (input was asked for Reloaded but then here we are we got GG) and GG Max was announced again with no input asked from this community and since the development started, again no input was asked from this community. There is only a few chosen who sit closer to the fire and it is their opinion that steer the boat. Not sure how those chosen ones got their place so close to the fire, maybe through some work they done for TGC but the trouble is those chosen ones are artists and scripters, none of them are actually making games and this is causing the identity crisis of GG. In the decision making we have:

Lee who want to make easy game maker but don't actually make games.
Artists who want shiny graphics but don't actually make games
Scripters who....no idea what they doing because scripting is a nightmare in GG but they certainly not making games either.

No game developers involved in the decision making guys.

Although, maybe this time is going to be different because If I am correct now we have Starwraith in the GG team who is making one of the best Space sim games out there, I love his work. I hope he can share some useful thoughts in the team what a good game engine should be like, but I have the feeling nobody going to ask him because duh, where is the challenge in that XD

But seriously, I think what GG would need is to time to time have a look around in the community, pick some people who actually have something decent in the making and ask them, "what is it that you the game developer need" and take in to consideration the opinion of of artists and code ninjas but should put much less weight on their opinion than it is now..

Who ?

I can't remember his forum name, he is making this:
https://www.starwraith.com/

It was announced in a news letter he is joined the team.

Ahh right I see it in the newsletter but I don't think hes joined the team.
I believe he uses AppGameKit.

GG Classic is a great little product aimed at the beginner or middling game dev, look at what Synchromesh's Protoscope or Ertlov's Fatthers Island to see what can be done.....

I couldn't even code in LUA before GG came along, (I used Blitz Basic on Amiga and PC before) I'm not great at LUA now, but I can just about get something to work within GG's limits.

Music and Audio is my speciality, always will be, and if I'm designing a level I like to get as much detail in as possible.

I can't 3D model at all, just can't get my head around it, so hats off to all the skilled people we have here.

Now with GG Max, it is the next natural step in GG's evolution, keeping classic for older systems, while Max will cater to mid and high end systems. Getting a level started and tested and adding scripts, audio in GG is just soooo easy.

I am so far excited in seeing what is happening with Max.

Well, he was called a "guest developer" in the news letter so maybe he is going to have some valuable input on how to make the new terrain system and optimization in general because in his space sim his got a decent planetary scale terrain with vegetation where you can descend to surfaces of planets, walk around, build stations and then fly back out in to space seamlessly without any loading screen and he done that way before any other space sim I know and also looks gorgeous so he might even have some input even on X11 shaders . And the system requirement is also ridiculously low considering it is an open-world game with lot of action:

DirectX 11 compatible dedicated graphics with 2GB VRAM
4GB RAM
3.8GHz Quad core CPU

Actually, he might even could have some input on AI if Lee would like to improve it. He is a really great asset even if all he is going to do is share some techniques and concepts he is using in his game.

As Tarkus1971 points out, GG is a program to get started in the world of video games, to learn the basics, the fundamentals, then it is only a matter of wanting more, for which GG also offers some tools that allow us to go a little further, although always within the limitations offered by a basic program.
I personally believe that with GG it is relatively easy to create a standard game, and even to go further, as has already been amply demonstrated by some users of this forum.
It also allows you to think outside the box and that's another factor that I really like.

So even at the risk of being treated as a fanboy, I still think that the price is more than reasonable for everything it offers me, even with its limitations and shortcomings, I already knew it would be like that, I knew it at the time that I read that it was a product in development. imho.

If you're talking about the guy who made Evochron and Arcovh, then this line is debatable :p

I'm a huge fan of space sims i've played most of them avidly over the last 30 years, everything from Epic, and Tie Fighter, to Frontier and Wing Commander, to EVE Online, and those two games were probably the worst i had played (in my opinion), i've played web based space sims advertised on facebook that i enjoyed ore, but that's just my opinion, making games is an art form, and art is always subjective.

I was featured in the Game Guru newsletter a couple of months back as a "guest developer" - it just means you get an article written about your game and get a bit of extra publicity, you don't have any input into the direction of Game Guru.

Having said that, Lee does check the forums so is aware what features are being requested. To say FPSC-R or Game Guru was developed with no input from the community completely overlooks the fact that the community voting board helped steer/derail the development of Game Guru for the first few years. When given too much say, a community all wanting different things will inevitably pull the engine in fifty directions at once. All that resulted from those times was a lot of unfinished features. But I do agree with you that few on the dev side of Game Guru have actually tried to make anything beyond a test level in it, and that harms Game Guru in the long run.

AE

all we need is this



problem solved

I like this as dlc. LOL

Yes personally I do love the atmosphere of the Evochron series, with the radio chat fx when you get close to ships and stations and engine sound fx, distress call fx, as the sun cast shadow on your dashboard in the void of space and I do find the planets pretty even today. Other titles may be more detailed and have a better campaign and more content, better graphics but somehow they don't deliver the atmosphere for me especially titles that is more focused on trading, combat and story.


Ah I see so he was a gest in the news letter and not the dev team. I guess there is no hope then we are doomed XD
I thought it was still about presenting the members of the dev team.


Actually TGC did released that it was called 3D Game Maker I believe, you literally had to press a red(? maybe green) button and it is made the game for you, just had to select the genre, the level, the enemy, the boss, the weapon or car if it was a racing game and press the button and play XD

@GraPhiX. When I was 10 or so and got a Spectrum, that's just what I wanted!

dont know why TGC always ignoring the requests from the community...
e.g. the 3rd Person Controller, its an unfinished something, far away from good or perfect...

You can not:
- pick up weapons
- pick up ammo
- reload animation not work
- pickup health packs
- shoot in the left/right direction (so its useless for a 2.5D Shooter)

They changed the name from FPS Reloaded to GameGuru, for a wider range of games... well, if they ignore all the other genres (e.g. 2.5 platformers, shooters) why not change back the name to FPS Reloaded (irony).

GG and maybe GGMax would be perfect for 2.5D Games... but they just ignore it and say the 3rd Party Controller is good and we will change nothing... well... too sad.

So many basic things missing since years in that FPS Creator.... its a shame

@MooKai
ie FPS Creator MAX!

"(so its useless for a 2.5D Shooter)"
Well, for non-scripters basically yes, but the viability for scripters to create
these types is in the scripting. So when I go to the MAX page, and still see
them claim "no coding required", as an experienced user I know that really
only covers stock (or store, or custom) scripts and models for First Person
applications -- directed at shooting games as the MAX page itself proclaims
in bold letters! So anyhow we can keep bringing that up, but there's little
point in doing so. It is where it is, and MAX is still in the womb-- which I look
forward to acquiring in short time.

I've done a platformer shooter system as well as a top down shooter WIP so,
as I keep referring to is the non-coders who pick it up should be well aware
that what's provided in the package and store is essentially FP shooting.

I've already created 2 top down shooters in the past... but well, a 2.5D game would be great.
Looks like TGC don't like 2.5D games lol... long time ago they changed the name to GG just because the users should not get the impression that its only for FPS.... but today its still a FPS focused game development system, with many things missing... which would be helpful for game development.

But it is like it is

@Mookai. Well you can pick up ammo and weapons, only need to change g_PlayerThirdPerson==0 to 1 in the playerdistance check to achieve that or remove it entirely, although the weapon pick ups start some issues. I know what you mean though, this stuff should have been finished and not left half done. Those lines just cement the fact it's not working properly

wow, thanks for the info.
well, another problem... the GG documentation lol...