GameGuru MAX and a sneak preview. I don't think this has been posted yet.

So looking at it most of what people paid for to be part of GG as is now was just put into GG_max.
just another swop from FPSC Reloaded to GG but this time we had to pay for what we was told GG
was going to get at some point... What a way to treat loyal long timers who stayed the coarse bit of a
joke..... Lee you need to be more honest about what we will receive in upgrades that were told
the version we have would have received but instead they got put into an updated version of
the same software but we had to pay if we wanted the update, poor showmanship indeed.

Hi All,

Just throwing this out there as a question. Have I been dishonest as 'Super Clark' suggests? I have asked a few times now for links to official announcements about features promised for GameGuru Classic, but have yet to receive any. I actually need these to formulate a plan of development work on Classic once we have fixed all the bugs in March, but right now my pleas have either been ignored, or the subject changed. Please do send me links that show you purchased GameGuru on the promise of a feature made by TGC. This could be product pages, old TGC announcements, pledge site feature lists, websites, etc.

As I have posted, probably around 30 times now, that GameGuru Classic will continue to be developed, both bug fixes and features we listed as part of the product. There is no requirement for you to purchase GameGuru MAX. None. Classic will continue to be developed. Just in case there is an honest doubt about this, please check out the GitHub Issues Board from March and watch the bug count drop: https://github.com/TheGameCreators/GameGuruRepo/issues

Err No !!

@Super Clark
What features do you see in max that were promised in GG ?
A new 64Bit engine, VR, Improved Character Creator ( which was never promised in GG in the first place )
As Lee says … Give us something … Or at least tell us what promises you think you "wont" be getting now even though GG will still be supported in 2020 and beyond ?

Hi Lee, I don't know what you've promised or not. I didn't purchase GG last year based on anything other than my own curiosity about the engine. However, over on the Steam discussion board (where you announced GameGuru MAX) someone posted some links that supposedly show promises made that they think were unfulfilled. So, you might want to check there. Also, didn't someone post a few links to supposed promises on the GameGuru MAX post on this forum?

Again, I don't know what was or was not promised, but some people did post links, even if they did not send them to you via email.

I don't have time to go properly trawling back through the forums tonight but here's a few things mentioned in the past. Lee, please understand I'm not doing this to humiliate you, just simply to point out where things were said that either haven't materialised, or are unfinished features.

FPS Creator Reloaded pitch video (circa 2013)



No one would call Game Guru's AI smart, and allies are only possible under the loosest definition. For it to be an ally, and not just a passive NPC that follows the player, it needs to be able to harm enemies. This may be possible with intensive scripting (what isn't?), but it's not an out-of-the-box function.


Currently not supported but hinted at for GGM as per Discord chat


Currently not possible, no plans to add as of tonight's Discord


Arguable.

There's also a mention of PhysX in here, but presumably there is a well-documented reason why you switched to Bullet, I just can't find it. May have been performance-related?

Dynamic cube map reflections in PBR (30 Sep 1017) - where did this functionality go!?

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/218545#msg2587016

Volumetric particles (16 Apr 2018)

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/219574#msg2599094

The good news is a lot of this stuff is being looked at in GGM

AE

This would be impossible for Pledges as all the sites containing that info have been long removed' Although your own TGC Reloaded forum board has also been removed it was a fairly easy search to find a page that had a list of confirmed features from your own Blog which I assume has also been removed.

https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/204669

I am sure you could safely say that none of this was 'official' and merely waffling and that you got into trouble for making these announcements but lets be honest this was a small part of it all.

Key points from that list include:
- Dark Clouds Integration (dynamic clouds and skies)
- Day and Night Cycles (skybox transitions)
- Real Time Dynamic Soft Shadows
- Real Time Dynamic Lighting

- Environmental effects (rain, snow, fire etc) Which you said was a planned update not an upgrade.

You even put up a video to display some of this working in the engine.


These were things that made people buy into the project, if there were no intention of any of this going into the engine then why put it out there?
Why should people trust you are going to do what you propose this time? this is isn't a personal assault merely a question.

You changed the name of the product with the reason being that you wanted to make it more than a first person shooter and dissed all those that pledged to fund the start up of your project.
https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/207421#msg2477340


Users aren't seeing any of this Lee and you don't seem to care much about that. I restate that it is now impossible for anyone to find any of the promises you made and you can continue to state that none of this was 'official' but it was these kind of things I could find that drew in pledgers and customers early on in both GameGuru and Reloaded. This cant be denied even if all folks get is a "404 Page not found error" When looking for official announcements.

@Lee
I am simply pointing out that over the past few years GG has been a very slow progress to get to were it is now, I do not
have old links to point to were certain things were promised as who save web pages in hindsight to thin I might need to
prove this info one day? .. all I can say from my point of view is just think if every few years we go from FPS Classic to FPSX10
then FPSC Reloaded to GG - and Now GG-Max how can we ever ge to a stage were the engine is completed to create a stanalone
game that looks a quality game. I have not bothered to create a game in a few years because the engine was not finished enough
to put out a quality game.

I apologise for the but it just does not
seem a fair deal to keep swapping versions and never fully finishing the current version to its completed state.
I myself would have been quite happy to have paid a yearly update licence fee over the years so long as we got to a full working
engine without numerous bug issues that take quite a long time to be addressed at some point.

@synchromesh
1, We were told we would get a fully integrated asset builder - the one we were shown in the beginning was scrapped and we were
given a very limited builder tool that does not meet a fully versatile asset building tool that's if it does not crash on saving .
2, The importer I have tried quite a few times to import files and it either crashes or the imported item does not show in the
editor at all, I have not bothered with it in the end at all.

I would like the revamped GG-Max in 2020 to allow full import for: .x / fbx / obj file formats....

I would like the revamped GG-Max in 2020 to allow a better paint ground texture colours and import our own textures ability,

Mush better transparency for assets as its a bit hit and mis at the moment on some occasions,

A character creator that has the ability to import our own clothes / hats / shoes - you get the drift...

a better wiglet as its very temperamental - touch the move arrows and yeh entity vanishes of to no mans land.

I am happy if it will be 64bit support as its needed,

If we are going to have PBR textures I would like the ability to import the entity and have the option to convert select PBR or DNS
so the engine can configure the correct shading for the entity being imported - if that is possible as I am not a coder so that as wild
shot in the dark if that's possible or not.

The ability to change the Sky & Ground in the editor without having to launch the game to perform this function if possible.

I will have a think on more at some point but these are some things I think would improve the game functions.

I'm not against a new engine I will probably buy it anyway when I'm ready to get back into it but multiplayer was defiantly mentioned as a part of GG here https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/220661 sorry but I still think it deserves at least that. Not dissing Lee here but a few of us we're prepared to put funds into that. Yes we could just by the new engine but I personally would like to see that side working.

I'm fine about the new product really. It would be better for existing users to get a discount regardless of when they order it, but business is business.
Things do seem to be regressing though. Here's a video I made back with Reloaded and the terrain detail is way better than we have today. Performance was not great but it certainly looked better back then Admittedly I don't spend anywhere near as much time in GG now as I did back then in Reloaded.

Hi All,

Thanks for the links, especially the videos (@Avenging Eagle only a little humiliated, but that's because of the hairstyle) Keep digging up the links so we can compile a decent list of features we pledged to do through the more official announcements.

A quick question to throw out there, should any comment I made on any "forum post" or "steam post" be treated as a promise of features to be added to Classic, say going back to 2013? For example "I am thinking of adding breakable walls", or "I am looking into breakable walls" would not be promises, but "We will be adding breakable walls into a future update" would count. What about "I will be adding breakable walls into a future version" indicate a future product or a future update version, that one would probably depend on some context. It will probably take some time to go through every forum post I have made up to the GameGuru launch but our forum history does go back that far so should be possible to compile my list.

I think we can reject features that subsequently got replaced with newer techniques, such as PhysX which was replaced with ODE, I assume you do not want original old features resurrected for the sake of strictness

When it comes to features that have been added, but are not very good or did not meet expectations, then we are probably into dark waters in figuring out what action is required. Some improvements are best brought about with a new product (i.e. graphics look like they are from 1999 is a good candidate for a new rendering engine), others are more completion steps to round off the functionality to a usable and bug-free state (i.e. third person control should work for every stock character). I think after bug fixes and clear missing functionality, we can compile a list of these improvements do decide what goes where.

As I seem to get a brick thrown when I don't mention this, I just want to restate that GameGuru Classic will continue to be developed through 2020 and beyond, the bugs will be fixed, promised functionality will be added. There is no need to buy MAX to get an update, you will continue to recieve free updates to Classic. No need to preorder. Watch the GitHub issues board in March for the start of the big fixing on Classic and please continue finding and posting links to missing functionality as promised by TGC. It would be great to be able to show any user a comprehensive list of features and references to the promise from the last seven years, which ones we completed and which ones remain, and show that we are working on them. I think this is the only way to settle the 'you did not deliver what you promised*' as the asterix to that often repeated statement covers a world of words, mostly uttered by me.

You think I would learn my lesson and just shut up, but I like to share what's going on in my head, and alas, I am now paying a most terrible price and I dare say I deserve it. I think we shut down the daily dev blog because I did too much mindless chatting, and it was perhaps for the best, can you imagine how many more features would need to be added to Classic if I kept that blog running for the last four years

Thanks for responding, I really don't think you need to be covering all the forum promises made, maybe those ones where you actually said you would be doing so will cover most of it.
The real problem has been your silence and absence around here for a long time, your "six months of bug fixing" didn't help and you should admit that was a grave error of judgement.
Even if you are off working on other projects at least be honest about this and pop in now and again to answer any concerns. Don't leave this to Mods and other users who don't actually have a clue and only get on peoples nerves with inane responses about "small team" and "no budget" or "this was never promised" when some folks know it damn well was. This defense of you does you no favours whatever and only a response from you carries any weight. I know that sometimes it is case of repeating something you may have said but pretty often around here it is merely fanboy lip service derived from a delusional belief that you can do no wrong.
The fact that you seem to believe you can work on both the old and the new products puts all that to rest really doesn't it? Of course this relies on you actually delivering on this ? So we will wait and see

Improve your road plan and transparency and don't announce features till you have them solid in your product or at least are sure it will work within the time allotted to it.
If you had kept the momentum with GameGuru you likely wouldn't be seeing a drop in sales right now and with capable users have several games out there to point to as example of what could be done with it.

You should concentrate on users who actually use your software as it was designed for, creating games.

Find and play the initial video that was used for the kick-starter - that would be a good place to start....

The way I am seeing the info over all the other threads and on discord is that MAX will simply be more or less yet another graphical update.
GG's whole life has practically revolved around that - making it look better, but at its heart it is still just an engine to build First Person Shooters.

You have promised 'Game making for everyone', but imo, no features have been added that work towards that goal.
By now we should have access to features that make it possible to actually make a game even if you are not in possession of a PHD:
-HUD Editor - Ability to create huds in the engine itself.
-Menu Editor - Easily modify the Start Menus for standalone
-Inventory Editor - Unless you just want to make a game where you just run around shooting zombies
-Drive\Fly Things - the initial kick-starter video pointed to this as a feature - that is what sold me on it
-Particle System - just like the one in AGK Studio!
-Stand-alones - reliable ones with more than two or three levels, that will play on a reasonable lot of computers out there

All we do is keep making things look prettier - at the expense of adding features useful for making game making easier......

Not really concerned with GG Classic now - just do it all in MAX. But please don't take another 5 years to end up with a great looking basic FPS engine.

And along the lines of what rolfy said above - don't alienate your users. Silence is not a good medium for keeping customers happy.
as per a classic Star Wars line - An interruption in communication can only mean one thing - Invasion!

I have already pledged for MAX but on a side note: I would hide that OP video, it does nothing to sell the product imo. To me it pretty much says that MAX does not really have anything to show yet

OldFlak....

To be honest, i was disappointed when i could not even place a simple door because it would not work and when ask on this forum the reply was that this happens if the doors is not placed precisely.
This problem prompted me to make those doors within a doorframe which can be placed easily and are now found in the fixtures/doors folder.
I was going to expand on it by also doing windows, but eventually stopped with this because of the problems which occured with transparancy, having glas separatedly without a frame seemed the best way to avoid those problems.

I've bought GG with the assumption that it was possible to create multiplayer games, i was unaware that this would need Steam and required other players to also have GG, this important information regarding multiplayer was not shared to my knowledge.
What was also a great dissapointment was the absence of possibilities to create a game other than a simple shooting game.
Options like adventure, survival, driving, one would expect this to be possible in a gamemaker but for us non-coders the only real possibility is to create a shooting game.
The biggest absence is of course access to functionality which prompts many to think that GG is lacking features while they are actually present but not accesible within the editor itself.
I do understand that you like to keep it clean and simple, but the downside is that al those inaccessible and hidden features are unknown.
Also, features which are absent due to performance such as parallax for example, it is of course a drain on performance but why don't you leave it to the user to deside if and when he will use parallax mapping and thus integrate this as an option for the user?
It makes your tool more complete and thus more valuable in my view.

Now for the possitive, I've played with FPSC, last weekend i've downloaded FPSC-X10 and had some fun with this software too.
It shows me where GG is coming from and what enormous progress has been made with FPSC-reloaded/GG.
As i understand a rewrite was needed from darkbasic-pro to C++ in the first year after GG was launched.
It is obvious to me that you are an enthousiastic gamecreator Lee and i have all the faith that GGMAX will also be a huge improvement so when it comes available on Steam, i'll be buying it.
That is if the banding problem on terrain painting has been solved and we are able to piant multiple grasses.

Edit:
Lee this is the link to the POMshader which was shared. https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/219935
And a link to the downloadpage for the Detailed Surfaces Viewer, a neat little programm. http://www.brunoevangelista.com/projects/

Glad to see the entity search finally in there.

Please improve the Third person that"s I want.

There was no official announcement of any specific features to be added. It was only dev talk about "improvements" to performance, graphics, level size in general, terrain and more powerful scripting to be added but again, nothing specific and chat about awesome features of other games that potentially "can be added" to FPSC:Reloaded at some point. But none of this was official, it was only dev talk in the comment sections of Youtube, your dev blog and on this forum. You've been also looking at AAA titles and asked for names to look at and get inspiration what to implement but of course again there was nothing promised officially, just you having a chat about AAA titles, what makes them good and what can be implemented to make FPSC:R good which lead to the conclusion we are getting a AAA FPS engine.

So in a legal sense you do not own us anything because none of this was officially promised by TGC it was just you having a chat with the community about the "possibilities".

We got better graphics, no complain
We got terrain, no complain but could be better
We got Lua scripting which is much more powerful than FPI, no complain but could be better
We got improved AI, though you did actually mentioned the AI will be able to climb ladder and jump through windows but again, it was not official just dev talk in comment section and finally we did get an improved AI recently
We got improved performance sort of, but was expected for the original X9 engine again nothing official just dev talk, you told me personally FPSC Reloaded (the X9 engine) should run beautifully on my GT 420, but it never happened it did require years of development and me upgrading to a GTX 750 and a new engine to get 30 FPS with good graphics settings.

All this have been mentioned for FPSC:Reloaded and it was only dev talk, nothing official but even if it was official, we are talking about GameGuru now which is a different product, FPSC:R was meant to be an advanced FPS engine at least this is what most of us did wanted it to be but GameGuru is trying to be a general purpose "easy game maker" since day 1 and none of this was promised officially for GameGuru so there is no way anyone was purchasing GameGuru based on any of the original promises and it was never told GameGuru is FPSC:Reloaded just the name has changed suddenly, we backed the development of FPSC:R and we got a Steam key for GameGuru. This is what happened.

So if anyone, did purchase GG based on what was told about FPSC:R they can not really complain now, they don't have the rights to do so, this is GameGuru, that was FPSC:R. 2 different products.
The original backers have the rights to complain because in a way GameGuru is not exactly what we paid for but again, not legally because nothing was promised officially, it was only excited conversation all over the place, youtube, twitch, dev blog, forum between the lead developer and the community but nothing official from TGC.

As the CEO of TGC and the lead developer I think you should be more careful with what you saying because people take it granted unfortunately. This is what happened here.

This is why it would be nice to have an official, public roadmap to show what is planned to come this year, in the future, what is in development now and coming soon and what is only an idea and considering to avoid this type of confusions about what was only an idea, daydream, dev talk and what was a promise of the lead developer and what official from the company.

Thanks.

It would be beneficial for end users if GG MAX would have game templates as you see in other engines. Choose a 3rd person template and the engine sets up the camera(s) etc to the right settings. +1 3rd person really needs attention. I shall add my thoughts/suggestions on the lovely Github

Absolutely agree, at the very least it needs weapon switching, and to be able to shoot in the direction the model is facing instead of where the first person weapon sight would normally be.

FPSC Reloaded became GG it is the same product - changing the name does not call off original promises - what was in the original media for drawing in pledges should still be implemented.

OldFlak....

I would also look back at the features voting board of a few years back. In hindsight, letting the community decide which features to add next was a mistake, it pulled Game Guru in lots of opposing directions at once whilst it was still in its infancy. But it was also implied that all the features listed were in the scope of development for Game Guru...eventually, given enough votes. Sadly that list no longer exists, even the Wayback-Machine couldn't find it, but features included driveable vehicles, volumetric particles, improvements to multiplayer...


I agree, although I don't think the onus should be entirely on Lee to speak for The Game Creators all the time. It may be a small company, but it has other employees, yet we never hear from them it seems? I'm pretty sure they've got a comms/marketing manager. Judging by the volatility of the forums and Steam threads, that comms manager should not only be sticking their head above the parapet, but damn well laying on every landmine and doing some pretty serious reputation management. They should also be the ones making the official announcements; you'd hope as a comms person they'd write it in a way that was a little less open to interpretation.

The Wayback-Machine did at least provide some nostalgic snapshots of the homepage over the years, which proudly displayed this tagline in 2015.


Ultimately, all these enhancements, upgrades, new features etc. should all be in service of this tagline - that is what people bought in to and why they continue to buy in to Game Guru; they want it to be fun, relatively easy, and the results to be consistently stable and shareable.

AE

LOL .. Over enthusiasm can take over easily and im pretty sure we all do the same thing planning our games saying its gonna have this and that ( at least in our heads ) only to find its not as doable as we thought ( Unless your Preben or Amen Moses )

The good thing is that you never ever said GG was going to be dropped which from my personal perspective means you haven't actually broken any promises yet so keep your chin up ... GG can still be close to the original vision and I never take anyone's words as gospel .. To many things in life can go wrong or circumstances can change so the planned Hotel with 100 rooms may only end up with 75 or it may not end up with the gold taps that were originally envisioned. Well that's the way my life seems to go anyway

At the end of the day if you can pull it off having two of the best easy to use engines out there isn't such a bad thing

I was thinking is the plan to update GG classic and then port that code over into the GG MAX, otherwise TGC are just re-inventing the wheel?

Well I've pre ordered mainly as I was prepared to pay towards multiplayer and if its getting x64 support I guess I'm hopefully going to get the things I wanted for less than I was prepared to pay just for multiplayer … bonus. Lee if you are reading the forums, With GG I mainly saw as others have mentioned updates to graphics which personally well for me and them are not as important as gameplay and core updates, Please focus on these with Max it will serve as a better engine for us all and hopefully increase sales through decent feedback. Anyways enough banter from me looking forward to giving it a spin

Just to be a grumpy old man - Whilst TGC were developing MyWorld they decided that AGK had to be spruced up to 'Studio'.
That seemed to suck resource from both GG and Myworld to the point that MyWorld was dropped and GG was left to flounder.
From that I take it that TGC barely had the resource to manage support and development for 1.5 applications - maybe I'm wrong - maybe the resource all got sucked off to the VR project - which would raise the support/development resource to 2 applications.

Now they are going to :-
develop GGMax
bug fix and update GG
maintain AGK studio and classic
maintain and support the VR app

Personally I doubt they can do it - and based on previous experience - something(s) will slip by the wayside and vanish in the rough.
So long as Lee doesn't put out a roadmap for any of these projects in writing we'll be able to have this self same conversation in a few years time. Yawn.

PS Thanks for the video Lee - now I'm sure you have the beginnings of GGMax

Really … You

TGC at one point had quite a large library of software they sold and maintained before their focus shifted, darkbasic pro at the time was quite a massive undertaking. Darkbasic and FPSC development went hand in hand any improvements to darkbasic made it into FPSC including bugs fixes and new features, ect

Before the shift to just AGK and gameguru these were all sold and maintained by TGC, of course some wasn't receiving further development. But they had quite a full plate at the time.
Excuse me if I missed some thing is what I can remember from back then.

The 3D game maker
Dark basic Pro, modules for darkbasic
FPSC over 70 model packs
FPSC X10
Treemagik
Plant life
3d level editor (forgot the name)
Texture generator
Particle generator
Darkshader

Mention one thing. Without money TGC is not be able to give us ANYTHING.
They gave us many updates for free. Some good, some... ok. But free. So, from a business way, I understand that there must be a new selling product periodly.
As Customer, I don't like how it is handled but even I don't like it, I understand it.
It's simple. I still want updates. Lee and his crew need money for food, hardware, software and more... so I preordered. In long terms, there is no other choice.

The problem is the absence of a clear roadmap for GG but also for GGMAX apparently and sticking to that roadmap for development.
Lee obviously had a good idea of what GGMAX would be with new terrain, lighting system and a new character creator, now 64bit has been added and GGMAX is already portrayed to be a 64bit engine.

AmenMoses made a good point on discord about this.

Oh, I have pre-ordered 'coz I'm sure they'll do their level best to deliver a great product, I like GG, (believe it or not) and I am a naturally inquisitive person. I'm also a pessimist, and life has demonstrated to me that being such avoids disappointment and allows for unexpected moments of happiness when what I fear might happen, doesn't.
@wizardofid. I know they managed to produce all those things, but things seem to have become overwhelming of late. I don't know why. I am sure Lee does.
I could speculate that writing FPSC using DB granted a much shallower learning curve and all-round control of code in turn allowing much faster development and easier maintenance. I could also speculate that Microsoft's core language support design has obfusticated everything. Further speculation - the code library has grown hugely in size, staff changes have caused loss of key knowledge, documentation shortcomings etc. etc etc. - all the stuff that makes maintaining and developing a big, complex chunk of software extremely difficult.
Maintaining and developing GG in 3 variants at once isn't going to make it any easier.

From your recent posts it is obvious that you have insights denied to many of us.

The question you have to ask yourself is 'Are you feeling lucky'?

I do hope that TGC 'Make my day'

Lol I am a curious bloke

Look I am going to be straight up honest, FPSC, FPSC X10, gameguru disappointed me in some way or another, and gameguru max is going to be no different. I love the easy to use nature of gameguru, what I hate about gameguru as well, while easy to use, it is extremely tedious to get content into gameguru, quite a wasteful expenditure of time.

I have given up on making any sort of completely custom media game since FPSC classic, as I spend more time outside the engine creating content for gameguru then actually using the content in the engine. It won't change either, TGC hasn't shown any interest in make things easier for content developers or expanding on the complexity of the editor and use.

I fell in love with creating content, not so much making the game aspects, and learned to live with the wasteful expenditures of developing content for gameguru, I don't care much for features, that doesn't help making content easier or looking better, if I didn't love it so much I guess I wouldn't have moved on from TGC long ago.

Gameguru max is unfortunately going to be more of the same, kind of wish they don't release a build in April, but only do a release in Sept. once the new graphics engine and 64bit rewrite is in, as I for see they will be picking up large amounts of hate, because the engine is going to be exactly the same as now, just redressed, whether or not you tell people it is only an alpha build won't matter.

So honestly buy now, and forget about it till Sept. Will be doing exactly the same.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tgc/fps-creator-reloaded/rewards

This was the original and start and concept of gameguru
This is what was promised it failed but continued via its own users and support with pledges

This was 2012 byb2013 pledges and the start of what is now 7 years of work and in that time work stopped to do other software you had the
rpg world
Agk v2
Vr studio
All 3 have been released while gameguru was not anywhere near complete and forum guys have actually given so much to help it along. Gameguru has gone a long way but 7 years..... reloaded became gameguru now max....
There were lots of fails along the way and wasted time in certain areas.. And so i think the bouts of silence in the last few years looks like fatigued software designer. also i do think watching the speed of vr getting sorted shows they could of been more focused on gg and had it in a much better place. Money talks
And yes you did tell porkies to the gameguru forums or misleading info you said things were happening to gameguru but not the software that was incomplete but a new version with the money taken from vr world which used gameguru as its platform and therefore you totally....... On your loyal pledgers... Some are optimistic some are mislead and some profit from this not naming long message writers.

Now im all for keeping this alive but in 7 years of been told to wait over and over to then have to buy it again is a bit of a cheeky slap really and i am saying it straight. Im not wanting flame wars or anything and some of you totally had a go at rolfy. That i thought was bang out of order he said it how he saw it. Dont attack for that its his say.

Anyway the answer is.
misleading is what you have done and distorted it a bit and not fully delivered on gameguru and used that to gain a platform to create a full version a bit cheeky and slight disrespectful but in this world today you need to make money sonif i see a finished product im in till then i will wait

Sb

@synchromesh




you yourself said that Vr was on the way in game guru...did you not ?
so..you too must have thought that at one time it was promised also.

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/221256





LEE also said this....



Saying..that..in the GAMEGURU forums......

UNIRD12B

Synchromesh IS NOT TGC, he does not work for them, he is not affiliated with them, he has nothing to do with the development of TGC products, he is a volunteer community forum moderator, nothing more, nothing less (no offence meant Synchromesh).

He posted that based on snippets of misleading information that was based on someone accidentally seeing code for it on GitHub and another person leaking just enough to get people excited on the forum, no promise was made by anyone official.

They never promised an improved one, you're right there, but by adding the base character creator they made an implied promise to give us a working character creator, which in the end they didn't, it still has the same bugs and issues it was introduced with and is useless for any serious project.

i dont remember anywhere saying, or implying he was.
i was pointing out that even some GameGuru "Insiders"
seemed to have also thougth that VR was promised and
was...coming soon.

UNIRD12B

it was being worked on yes … And by what lee said in your other quote I had no reason to think not.
HOWEVER..
That was never originally promised for GG so your missing the whole point.
Not a feature originally promised so its irrelevant … Plus the fact you still don't know if you wont get it do you.

Sigh! Okay looks like the old "TGC are broke and need cash to finish this product" argument has been replaced by "never officially promised that".
All this simply tells people to keep their money in their pocket, why would anyone buy into this..... "Give us your early support but down the line we'll drop it and say we didn't officially promise anything"... this has to be the ultimate sales technique.....not.

You really should stop with this it isn't helping in the slightest. TGC can speak for themselves.


You and everyone else...the difference is that no one else will accept this wasn't on the cards as it wasn't 'officially' promised as an excuse for not delivering on it.

Where's that quote ?
Whats the problem .. Lee wants all the original promises made as that's what users are complaining about.
other stuff in the works is neither here nor there.

The only thing missing is 'official' which you replaced with original feel free to explain the difference, but that's irrelevant you really should try reading what you yourself wrote.
Yes you may be right and Lee wants to make good on the original promises, but that's for him to say one way or the other.

No I did not at all !!

Whatever....I am not saying you actually changed it.....it really doesn't change the fact that you seem compelled to jump on the "promise not a promise" bandwagon. People will make their own minds up as to whether smoke is being blown up their [synonym for donkey] and vote with their wallets.
If you really want to support TGC then go make a game to showcase their awesome GameGuru, that would be quite a feat and more impressive than sitting around on the forum jumping on anyone who has actual concerns and questions which, by the way, were asked for..

Mod edit: Please no swearing.

@rolfy: He does make games, its quite decent too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqeS9ZcOntk

Look … its simple
Everyone wants GG to be what was promised. Even you had your say on it.
Lee has asked for original links so he can honour them. Anything else that was in the works, still in the works is irrelevant.
GG will still be supported … who says they wont get VR still or anything else discussed .. I don't know ?


Oh yes you did and im not happy.

Nitpicking words still doesn't change your overall response. Just makes you look like a kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar and trying to detract from the issue.


Actually it is pretty far from irrelevant, for example the character creator and multiplayer were already in GG and said several times would be improved, both of these as actual working features are being shown or declared in Max. How much more 'official' or even 'original' does it have to be than 'actually in the product' for you to accept it? Doesn't leave much new does it, 64bit is now the big thing but only added after the announcement and suggested by users. I may be wrong but I seem to remember an early version of VR too, could be wrong as I have no interest in it.
Lee knows full well that links to product pages for pledges and such are long gone and only the Kickstarter, which they probably cant do anything about remains, so do you deep down. Why is Lee asking users to do this when he could do it himself easily since they were posted by TGC in the first place and should be easy for them to find? Just another question to ask yourself.
All the same I will repeat myself it isn't for you or anyone else around here to be responding to users concerning whether anything said was a 'promise' or not. That's down to TGC and TGC alone.

For a short time in FPSC Reloaded:

"Oculus Rift has passed the integration testing into FPSC Reloaded, along with Lua Scripting."

https://www.thegamecreators.com/pages/newsletters/newsletter_issue_132.html
https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2014/02/31119-fps-creator-reloaded-integrates-oculus-rift/
https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/6085/reloaded-for-rifters
https://www.siliconera.com/fps-creator-hits-bullseye-steam-greenlight/

Forum Post about Oculus Rift support development:
https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/207526

However, this was all back when Game Guru was called FPSC Reloaded. I personally own an Oculus Rift and would be interested to know if its possible to re-enable VR in the setup.ini. As there used to be a field there for it? Perhaps the VR elements were striped?

Of course it was and it was a completely different program when they announced the name change...right?
Sound familiar?
I am truly sick and tired of the fanboys cries of "not the same product so it doesn't apply". It was exactly the same product and the name change was in fact put down to TGC deciding it was to be more than a first person shooter, which hasn't materialised either. TBH I don't remember TGC actually saying all deals were off only a few users who used it as a rally cry when someone felt ripped off, of course there was no comment from TGC to the contrary either. So yet again you got users bickering among themselves giving out information they have no clue about and sullen silence from TGC who could settle the whole thing by posting something that makes sense.
If TGC can have a high profile around here when they look for support in the form of paid 'upgrades' then they should put the same effort into answering users concerns.
As I said there seems to be no point in going round in circles with this anymore...if people want to buy into this and justify a stupid decision by talking up things they don't know anything about, or worse trying to convince others to accept the delusion....good luck to 'em.

@rolfy : You have produced some amazing stuff for the GameGuru community, and I am sure everyone agreed with your concerns, and a lot of what you say rings true. I am not evil, just a developer. Not some demi-god, just a coder making something he thought was cool. Not out to rob, or con, or be dishonest, in all this. Just posting stuff when I think about it. Right now (for one not very clever guy from Wigan) I think I have met my match on the expectations of the modern business world. If I promised many things, it would be nice to get a list so I can make good my pledges, and push TGC to make sure those things happen, but beyond that, I am pretty much defenseless. I am not sure what else I can do. If there is something else I can do beyond what I have already posted over the last 3 days let me know...alas I am out of ideas. Fixing bugs and adding functionality to GameGuru Classic, that's the best I can come up with. At the end of the day, I'm an old school 8-bit coder and probably (completely) out of my league, and for that, I can only apologise, I know you want killer features, but I think we all know that's never going to happen. I'm not a 100 strong coder and artist team, not even traiined in hiring AAA professionals, I cut my teeth tinkering with home computers making them 'go' and getting a thrill when it did not crash I know it's my fault, building up expectations, I am the eternal optimist, and its fair to say I get shot down more often than not for aiming too high, and I am starting to grasp the damage that such language can cause if it goes unchecked. Lord knows my management team feels its their full time job to rein me in

I am sure we can expend many words on 'who did what to who' (Monty Python quote) but I am happy to make good my promises and deliver the software as sold to you. Just send me links, I will make a list, and we can publish that list, and decide what goes in Classic and what goes in MAX.

Lee, I'm sure you still have a list: The Voting Board.

Okay Lee looks like I need to make my point more clearly here. It seems to have escaped your notice that I have asked for nothing of the sort from you. If I were to ask for anything it would be that you gag and muzzle your Mod and other minions who seems to endlessly jump on anyone who asks a simple relevant question about features 'promised' or otherwise and this is coming across as the final word causing frustration and leading to outright pissiness. This cronyism is really annoying.
If somebody wants to take something I say the wrong way and throw back their head stomping out the door like a big girlie that's fine by me and your unlikely to get an apology if I think I was just telling it like it is.

Tell everyone to shut it and let you speak for yourself, if I come across as pissed off it's nothing personal with you but it is a result of frustration with your fan club who don't seem to know when to sit back and see what happens. Your not a child that needs protecting from the big bad world.

I think you need to sit back yourself and forget all the heated garbage that arises from the constant bickering that goes on around here and you will find that people aren't remotely asking for a AAA engine, all they want is a working product that meets the expectations they have been given.

You keep asking me to show links to promises made and I presented one above which is a long list which I don't expect to see most of at all, not because I am pissy but because most of it isn't required to finish Classic. There are plenty of other links from other users too so why keep asking? Asking for links to promises made on TGC product pages posted by TGC is nonsense and if you can't find these yourselves then it's only irritating and annoying to continuously be asking your users to do it...come on this isn't 'being real' is it? It comes across as let 'em chase their tails there's nothing to find anyhow. If your going to be 'real' and not a Demi God then at least give your user base a little credit for their intelligence in return.

GameGuru has a lot of half assed incomplete features that should at the very least be finished before you decide to move on to any new paid upgrades. There are users around here that would be happy to throw extra cash at dynamic lighting, VR for Max and possibly other features you might come up with but instead of consulting and gathering opinion you just pulled it out your ass and threw it out there as a paid upgrade after disappearing to work on VRQuest which was built on GameGuru and by all reckoning must be in better working order than the product we paid for.

Working multiplayer,character creator and standalone issues should be considered for Classic, perhaps other users would like to add to that but I reckon you should at the very least think on that.

I don't think asking for more transparency and better communication with your users are 'great expectations in the modern business world' quite the opposite and old school if you ask me.

I know your not a Demi God and prefer you to be fallible and human, but so are your users and they deserve the same courtesy, respect and understanding as you do.

Acting all butt hurt and offended instead of actually addressing and answering the hard questions doesn't work on me unfortunately.

I am sure you mean well but you need to stop procrastinating you got enough posted already and a good idea what needs done to finish with Classic so say something and let users know whats on your mind with what you got so far, again I hope it's all a success for you it's always been your dream to create the ultimate 'ease of use engine' just as it's always been your users dream to create a working game they can be proud of. Pull up your big girl panties and get on with it.