Product Chat / [LOCKED] The 'missing multiple dynamic shadows' Bug

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synchromesh
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 15:45 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 16:14
Quote: "I was not aware the donations system was breaking legal or moral laws,"

If I donate £10 then VAT is added and I also pay that which brings it to around £12 that I actually pay. As far as HMRC and Law goes its all above board as Jason looked into it thoroughly before implementing it.

There should not be any moral issues. Its a donation for third party work and its up to the donator if they want to pay or not and not really for others to criticise if they wish to do this . so far its benefitted us all ( donators and non donators )

But if you want to throw a gift horse in the mouth then so be it .
I would agree with Lee that if its to much hassle for some to take just seeing it there then get rid of it and we will just have to wait until these things get done as and when development allows.
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Teabone
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 15:57 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 15:59
For myself personally i wont get into the discussion about legalities.

Quote: "pay freelancers who wish to volunteer their services for things the community wanted to see sooner. Indeed, it would be less hassle for TGC if we scrapped the system as it does take time to manage, and given the negative feelings it is generating, it might be best to end the experiment once the last of the pots has been spent."


I was asking if donations are not met would the work not be paid by TGC. The answer seems to be no (not any time soon anyways) as TGC funding is towards bug fixes? Though the bug fixes are primarily already paid out of the pot. I was mostly wondering if TGC would be topping off any of the costs to match the agreement with Preben. This being one of the most requested features since day one. The situation here seemed like like we were being encouraged to throw in 500 dollars ourselves for this upgrade (with a potential deadline). Again for myself personally i dont mind volunteering to support the community with the minor fixes but those incentives have always been motivation for contributors im sure. I do think those people working on the major additions and fixes like the dynamic shadows should be compensated.

Imagine a new Game Guru trailer showing off dynamic shadows from a flashlight indoors or night and day changing sun outdoors. Trust me you'd make a lot of this money back if invested in such a thing.

Are we still in the 6 months of bug fixing phase? And is that primarily expected work from the community members under the donation pots?
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synchromesh
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 16:21 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 16:27
Quote: "n for myself personally i dont mind volunteering to support the community with the minor fixes but those incentives have always been motivation for contributors im sure. "

Some of us would like to do this but just don't have the coding skill, Hence being able to donate so others can do it is our way of contributing and feeling involved in the development with you all , Plus getting extras done like the realtime shadows much sooner is an added bonus. Some forget those that donate want to .. Whether TGC pay or not isn't the point or an issue for many.
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 17:11
I think the donations system is a good thing myself. It's voluntary. Donate or don't, there's no pressure to do so. I understand the sentiment being expressed here, but really if the users are willing to donate and people are willing to work for the sums mentioned, I say leave them be.
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 17:14
@Argent Arts: I value the feedback from everyone in the community, sorry if I am putting you in the limelight (and do tell me to stop if it's uncomfortable) but I think it's worth exploring the ethics of how TGC develop its software as you raise some excellent points. I personally thought the donations system was a nice way to accelerate progress, and many members of the community agree. Interestingly, if it was your company, would you scrap it once the pots where emptied?
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 17:36

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3com
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 17:39
I recently made a donation and curiously destined a high percentage to miscelanious, thinking about the bugs.
I am willing to make another donation if necessary, all for the cause.
I personally consider that I am not giving anything to TGC but rewarding the work of Prebem, I believe that after the work done, it deserves compensation.
Something good that the donation system has, is because it's voluntary, nobody is obligated to anything.
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Teabone
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 18:00
Quote: "I think the donations system is a good thing myself. It's voluntary. Donate or don't, there's no pressure to do so. I understand the sentiment being expressed here, but really if the users are willing to donate and people are willing to work for the sums mentioned, I say leave them be."


I can agree with that. Though I feel a bit of pressure right now knowing we could get dynamic shadows sometime soon
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synchromesh
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 18:05 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 18:06
Its ironic that after the kickstarter failed it was a donation that initially made it all possible .. ( Pledges came after )
Didn't see one complaint then
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Teabone
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 18:11
That was an investment not a donation though. The pledges helped pay it back.
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 18:33
Quote: "Would you consider a "dynamic shadow system without point lights" a 'half-baked' solution? We can keep the development of this in a private dev branch until it's fully complete."


No I would not call that a half-baked solution. My first post was a little aggressive and I am super excited for shadows on flashlight and spotlights. Maybe the engine can't handle Point Lights casting shadows at the moment, which is fine. But like Argent Arts said there is something very interesting about GameGuru it is why we all love this engine (or love the idea of what the engine could be in its final form). I just want whatever is best for the engine.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 19:54
Quote: "That was an investment not a donation though. The pledges helped pay it back."

I stand corrected
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Argent Arts
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 20:52
Quote: "@Argent Arts: I value the feedback from everyone in the community, sorry if I am putting you in the limelight (and do tell me to stop if it's uncomfortable) but I think it's worth exploring the ethics of how TGC develop its software as you raise some excellent points."


No worries (on putting me in the spotlight). Thanks for asking, though. I do appreciate it. Truly.

Quote: "I personally thought the donations system was a nice way to accelerate progress, and many members of the community agree."


I definitely see that, based on reading posts here. And since this is the case, I would ignore what I've said and do what is best for the community as a whole and for GG.

Quote: "Interestingly, if it was your company, would you scrap it once the pots where emptied?"


I would, but that's me. I would strive to earn what is needed to make the changes required. Or, frankly, I would make the changes and, if significant, then charge an upgrade price to compensate for the investment in time and money. After all, GG is sold very cheap. So, I don't think an upgrade price would be a bad thing to do (but I could be wrong about that, too).

I just personally don't like the donation system. What if $350 were donated for dynamic lights, which is not the $500 requested. What happens to the money then? Is it given back? Is it just allocated to different projects? And if it's allocated to a different project, what about the people who gave the money specifically for dynamic lights?
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granada
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 20:58
I always said GG was to cheap from the start as it stands it’s worth more

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synchromesh
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 21:45 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 21:47
Quote: "I just personally don't like the donation system. What if $350 were donated for dynamic lights, which is not the $500 requested. What happens to the money then?"

I would pay the balance … I said above I would pay the balance if at least a good effort was made.
I actually want this added so I don't mind going the extra mile …
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3com
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 21:53
if only 350 are collected in the pot, we will sing a song to Prebem, by the 150 missing bucks. LOL
TGC are a enterprise and because the people who gave the money, specifically for dynamic lights, I'm sure TGC will seek the right solution to the problem.
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UNIRD12B
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 21:54 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 21:56
Quote: "Or, frankly, I would make the changes and, if significant, then charge an upgrade price to compensate for the investment in time and money."


that's all fine and good,,,,maybe,,,for those who paid $20 for it ...BUT...what about all of us that
paid $100 as Gold Pledgers and were guaranteed a lifetime upgrade path for our early support...
Always more points to think about...why not leave well enough alone !

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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 22:25 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 00:37
Quote: "that's all fine and good,,,,maybe,,,for those who paid $20 for it ...BUT...what about all of us that
paid $100 as Gold Pledgers and were guaranteed a lifetime upgrade path for our early support...
Always more points to think about...why not leave well enough alone !"


Lee asked my opinion and I gave it. I know you didn't ask, but if I had people who had paid $100 as Gold Pledges and were guaranteed a lifetime of upgrades, then I would honor that. So, the upgrade price would only apply to those who were not a part of that previous deal. Businesses do things like this all the time. So, no worries.
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 22:39
Quote: "Lee asked my opinion and I gave it. Is that okay with you? I know you didn't ask, but if I had people who had paid $100 as Gold Pledges and were guaranteed a lifetime of upgrades, then I would honor that. How hard is that to understand? So, the upgrade price would only apply to those who were not a part of that previous deal. Businesses do things like this all the time. So, no worries. I wasn't trying to threaten your world or anything. So, why not calm down a bit."


This is an open healthy discussion everyone can voice there opinion , your comment is getting very close to being a 'Personal Attack' I would ask anyone participating in this thread to keep it 'Generalised' and not personal otherwise I will have to lock it.
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3com
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 22:52
But still we has not found the "missing multiple dynamic shadows"
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Ertlov
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:23
Quote: "@All: I was not aware the donations system was breaking legal or moral laws, it was just a simple way of administering voluntary contributions from the community to pay freelancers who wish to volunteer their services for things the community wanted to see sooner."


That`s why I refrained from taking any judgment. I have no idea. In Austria, you would have the business chamber and the tax man burning down your house if you try naming anything "donation" in a for-profit environment. In Australia, I have seen companies doing that and it seems legal. As said, no judgement from me. But I can understand why users who combine "donation" with "charity" in their minds are upset.

Quote: "On your points about hiring and running a business properly, if you managed a product that could just about sustain the fair wage of one programmer, and that product needed updating, would you hire a second programmer to get the work done quicker (and push the product into a monthly loss)"


Hell, yes, yes and yes - as long as it doesn`t push the company into a monthly loss. In some countries, you would be even legally forced to do so (as long as you don`t risk bankruptcy for your whole business entity). Gewährleistungspflicht is something not to be taken easily.

Also, thank you for
Quote: "No timeline set for the next update, or what will be in it, only that priority will be placed on items in the issues tracker that tackle 'bugs' before 'enhancements'. I am anticipating August for beta and PP testing, so if that goes quickly then September for the next public release"


but it doesn`t answer the question "Ok, and when do I get my shadows if I pay for the bugfix / feature completion myself?"

Quote: "There should not be any moral issues. Its a donation for third party work and its up to the donator if they want to pay or not and not really for others to criticise if they wish to do this . so far its benefitted us all ( donators and non donators )
But if you want to throw a gift horse in the mouth then so be it . "


No one wants that, but honestly, you need some reality check regarding the wording and public appearance here.
Customers are paying additional money to A COMPANY (TGC) to get stuff fixed or stuff implemented by 3rd parties. As outlined above, this can be morally and legally perfectly fine, but it doesn`t change the nature of the business transaction. Hell, even VAT is collected with TGCs VAT number - you can call it what you want, it`s a purchase of goods & services then. Which comes with additional obligations, of course. Change it to "Stretch Goal Pots" or whatever, just get rid of the word "donation" and half of the complaints here vanish into thin air.

Quote: "That was an investment not a donation though. The pledges helped pay it back."


And quite quickly, if we look at the pledgers credits

Quote: "I would pay the balance … I said above I would pay the balance if at least a good effort was made.
I actually want this added so I don't mind going the extra mile … "


I will pay all of it, if needed, but I want a clear comittement from TGC regarding timeline and quality. And of course point lights included. This would be then my donation to the community and myself. But I need some level of transparency and accountability here, because...

Quote: "Are we still in the 6 months of bug fixing phase? "


Questions like those being unanswered are not building any trust here. Either there was some less-than-ideal communication, leading the vast majority of the community to the obviously wrong assumption that 6 months of bug fixing have been invested, or the plans changed after that announcement without telling the community (=customers).
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:35
Quote: "I will pay all of it, if needed,"

Awesome gesture but could be to late .. Beginning to think this ship has well and truly sailed. So much resentment over any type of donation now im not sure it can recover.
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Argent Arts
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:37
Quote: "This is an open healthy discussion everyone can voice there opinion , your comment is getting very close to being a 'Personal Attack' I would ask anyone participating in this thread to keep it 'Generalised' and not personal otherwise I will have to lock it."


I apologize. I'll edit my post. Thanks. I appreciate it.
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Argent Arts
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:43
Quote: "Beginning to think this ship has well and truly sailed. So much resentment over any type of donation now im not sure it can recover. "


Personally, I think that is an overreaction. Based on what I have been reading in this thread, most are in favor of the donation system. And while I would not offer it if I were the business owner, this isn't my business. As I had stated above, let's just do what is best for the community and GG. And I believe Lee will do that.
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Ertlov
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:47
Quote: "Based on what I have been reading in this thread, most are in favor of the donation system. "


Agreed, just call it something else than donation, it can cause too much troubles for people who link "donation" to "charity NGOs".
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:52 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 00:55
Quote: "Personally, I think that is an overreaction."

Perhaps .. It started great very positive ..

Quote: "Agreed, just call it something else than donation, it can cause too much troubles for people who link "donation""

You could be on to something there Ertlov in fact I think you nailed it . It could well be the name giving the wrong impression and causing the problem

" Third Party Contributions " perhaps
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3com
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:55
Crowdfunding
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Ertlov
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 00:59
I think having the headline "crowdfunding" and then the pots, together with some transparency of the payouts would be perfectly fine for almost everyone here.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 01:00
Quote: "Crowdfunding"

Dunno on that one … Makes me think to much of Chris Roberts who seems to have forgotten his kick Starter ended years ago and now boasts $212 million. Still no originally planned standalone game bless him
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 01:03 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 01:04
It is better than Donations though and more acceptably common these days
Ye I could live with that ..
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granada
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 01:39
I must say I agree with Ertlov on all points here

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OldFlak
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 05:05 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 05:10
So, can we now crowdfund the development of Dynamic Shadows, with an ETA (at least for the Beta Builds) please?

This products is already sold way too cheap, I would be more than happy to contribute to faster development. Perhaps we could crowdfund for some additional coders as well, and push GG to its limits sooner.

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Corno_1
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 10:01 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 10:01
Quote: "But I need some level of transparency and accountability here"

Me too. I do not spend any money for a vague promise....
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 11:00 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 11:36
Quote: "Me too. I do not spend any money for a vague promise...."

Actually crowdfunding and kick Starters are exactly that.
Even when we had the pledge system there were no 100% guarantee's we would end up with a product.
Anything could have happened. I myself have lost a fair bit of cash on failed crowdfunding for many different reasons but this is different were just trying raise 500 bucks to pay Preben for doing the job. I have 100% faith he can pull it off, if he's still willing of course.

Over the last 12 months users have already donated over £1000 without any issues and we still have around £470 in the various pots but obviously we cannot use those. Just wondering what's so different about this freelancing job ?
This is probably the easiest and most transparent donation of them all. £500 to contract Preben to carry out the task of realtime shadows apart from an ETA once he starts is there any more to know … Pretty sure he will update us of his progress. Cmon Guys its Preben !! When's he ever let us down.
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Corno_1
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 11:52 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 12:45
Quote: "Actually crowdfunding and kick Starters are exactly that."

I just want to know:
When he starts? Now, in a month, in a year, when the sum is in the pot?
How long does he think he needs. A month, half a year, a year.
Would he also implement it for dynamic point lights and if yes, how much he want?

I think Preben does not write a mail to Lee without making a plan! I just want to hear a bit of the plan

If there are problems, and the project failed, I lose my money, but that is the risk I take. I just want to know what I support.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 12:14 Edited at: 21st Jul 2019 12:29
Quote: "Do we have stretch goals, like support point lights? How much he want for the point lights?"

We were only talking about changing the name from Donations to something else … Its not a campaign which is why it may be better called something like " Third Party Contributions " ..

Seems like " Crowdfunding "may give the wrong impression as well … No stretch goals its a one off payment for Preben to do the job. Like using the " asset fixing " pot to pay someone to fix the assets but we are using the "miscellaneous" pot to get real time shadows added. It will probably start when we get enough in the pot.
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Earthling45
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 12:35
Preben has already implemented it in GG loader, so i think he is quite capable to also implement it in GG itself.

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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 12:49
Quote: "We were only talking about changing the name from Donations to something else … Its not a campaign which is why it may be better called something like " Third Party Contributions " ..

Seems like " Crowdfunding "may give the wrong impression as well … No stretch goals its a one off payment for Preben to do the job"

@synchromesh
I changed it. And I do not care how we call it. He could call it uffi duffi payment. I want to know if there is a chance to get dynamic shadows for point lights and what the price tag is?
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 13:02
Quote: "Preben has already implemented it in GG loader, so i think he is quite capable to also implement it in GG itself."

Yep looks awesome .. Imagine a torch doing that as you walk about a dark corridor
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Earthling45
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 17:01
That will look awesome indeed.

3com
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Location: Catalonia
Posted: 21st Jul 2019 19:06
I need thats shadows to work my horror pack.



I need my rolling assets casting shadows.
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Belidos
3D Media Maker
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Location: Hertfordshire
Posted: 21st Jul 2019 21:16
Quote: "I need my rolling assets casting shadows."


You need to scale down your raindrop textures first, those raindrops are the size of a characters head :p


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synchromesh
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 00:41
That Doll is pretty freaky … its surprising how one asset can create a whole atmosphere
Great work on that ..
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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Ertlov
GameGuru BOTB Developer
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Joined: 18th Jan 2007
Location: Australia
Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 01:18
Quote: "Over the last 12 months users have already donated over £1000 without any issues and we still have around £470 in the various pots but obviously we cannot use those. Just wondering what's so different about this freelancing job ?"


I think the issue is that the trust is partially gone - not towards the freelancers, but towards TGCs statements. The 6 months of bug fixing announcement / discussion / lack of visible effort / justification was for many users the last nail in the coffin.

I get it that clear, formal answers to questions like
Quote: "Are we still in the 6 months of bug fixing phase? And is that primarily expected work from the community members under the donation pots?"

and
Quote: "When he starts? Now, in a month, in a year, when the sum is in the pot?
How long does he think he needs. A month, half a year, a year.
Would he also implement it for dynamic point lights and if yes, how much he want?"

are essential here.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 01:59 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2019 02:02
I thought most of those answers regarding timelines and what would be implemented was in Lee's first post ..
Obviously nothings going to happen until we have enough in the pot so maybe we will get more info after the weekend.
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 04:07 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2019 22:11
Quote: "I thought most of those answers regarding timelines and what would be implemented was in Lee's first post "


I might have missed that, but AFAIK there is no answer to

Weeks / Months to completion if funded right now:
Weeks / Months to completion if not enough $ hits the pot:
Point Lights casting shadows if funded by community (Yes/Now)


And, to regain trust:

List of issues fixed in the 6 months bugfixing track:
Are we still in the 6months bugfixing track (Yes / No)


There might some smaller ones regarding VAT on donations or stuff like that, but I think those are the bullet points that need clear, committed answers. Those are aimed at TGC and have nothing to do with the freelancers whose work is highly appreciated.

@Preben:
I am willing to fill the pot for the dynamic shadows alone, or to pay you directly.
The only thing I want to know is roughly how many weeks or months it will take.
And if you say, the price tag was only if all community contributed and not only one member, than fine...
...let`s negotiate how much and how long it will take.
"I am a road map, I will lead and you will follow, I will teach and you will learn, when you leave my sprint planning you will be weapons, focused and full of JIRA tickets, Hot Rod rocket development gods of precision and strength, terrorizing across the repository and hunting for github submits."
Belidos
3D Media Maker
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 06:10
I would like to know how often he plans to have a bowel movement while working on this, as it could directly effect how long it takes

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Avenging Eagle
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Location: UK
Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 09:18
Personal opinion: I too would like to see shadows toggleable on a per light basis for both point lights and flashlights/spotlights. I say this because the number of times I use spotlights when lighting my levels is maybe 3% of the time. I also agree with comments about having the sun shadows toggleable in editor (as well as its position and height LUA-controlled ). I know it's resource heavy, but so is everything we do in Game Guru.

I would rather have 5 dynamics lights with shadows than 38 lights without.

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Preben
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 10:35
Wow what a discussion

"Preben working for such discounted price tags."
Yes but this price was set as it should be paid by the community, and that is why i set it really low, if TGC was to pay for this work it would be * 6 (but would include a ETA).

This is also why i cant do a ETA or even a start date , my only source of income is from my programming hours, so i cant just use my time to do things like this, it is secondary work (and mostly in my spare time) and will never include a ETA.

It all sounds like people are not willing to support this without a ETA ( and i can understand that ) but that are never going to happen.

I do not want to get caught in the middle of a trust problem with TGC and ME not being able to provide these commits/ETA/information's ... as this is me coding this, TGC will never be able to provide that info for you so.

I will redraw my offer: And perhaps find another way to get it added to GameGuru, would you all prefer this as a DLC ? or do you have any other suggestions ?

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best regards Preben Eriksen,
synchromesh
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 10:57
Quote: "I will redraw my offer:"

Bad news indeed … But understandable.
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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