Product Chat / Mega Pack 3 Monster Overhaul

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 10th May 2019 01:32
Hi All,

You may have noticed the recent announcement of the Mega Pack 3 DLC Promotion and the hint that thanks to contributions from two excellent and generous community artists, you are treated to a massive overhaul of content. Even though the contributions were done freely and under no obligation, we felt it right that the Asset Fixing donations should go to these two amazing members of the GameGuru community and I wanted to post here to say that your donations into this pot are now available for you to enjoy.

As a clue to finding the new PBR content improvements, check out the following folders within Mega Pack 3:

Furniture\
Scenery\Office & Industrial props\
Scenery\Sports\

The artists responsible for the improvements may chime into this thread if you have any questions about the improvements, and if you would like to see more of this Mega Pack 3 updated, feel free to add to the Asset Fixing donations pot and I will make sure the artists get the funds if they decide to tackle another batch from what is one of our largest and most popular DLCs.
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tdreisinger
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Posted: 10th May 2019 03:07
Quote: "and if you would like to see more of this Mega Pack 3 updated, feel free to add to the Asset Fixing donations pot and I will make sure the artists get the funds if they decide to tackle another batch from what is one of our largest and most popular DLCs."


I was under the impression that mega pack 3 had already been completely updated. If that is true then you are basically saying "we cannot have all the updates until the community forks out more money" and even worse you are blatantly lying to a strong and mostly loyal community.
Timothy D. Reisinger
LeeBamber
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Posted: 10th May 2019 04:31
Can you send me a link to the announcement of MP3 being completely updated, thanks!
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Teabone
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Posted: 10th May 2019 05:37 Edited at: 10th May 2019 05:58
Quote: "I was under the impression that mega pack 3 had already been completely updated"


With PBR or just smoothing groups and texture corrections?

Hi Lee or anyone else that may see this post, I was curious how do you actually turn on or turn off PBR with Game Guru? I have pbroverride = 0 in my setup file. Does this mean PBR is off?

I have recently gotten into the PBR workflow to upgrade some of my recent models:



While I plan to go back and review all past models I've ever made to upgrade them to PBR, I've been itching to upgrade some FPSC stock assets with PBR as well.
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Preben
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Posted: 10th May 2019 07:13
@Teabone

pbroverride = 0 : Do not disable PBR if your fpe file is setup for PBR it will still render it as PBR. But it will not convert your old DNS object to PBR but render them the old way. So you can use pbroverride = 0 to mix PBR and non PBR.

Wow MP3 update , cant wait to try/see GraPhiX and Pirate Myke changes, Thanks for your work

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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 10th May 2019 07:41 Edited at: 10th May 2019 07:42
Congratulations GraPhix and Pirate Myke! A lot of hard work on your part, but now we all get to benefit from it

tdreisinger wrote: "I was under the impression that mega pack 3 had already been completely updated."

Not so. There was a news post last year about a small free update to mega pack 3 involving the addition of PBR textures to a handful of models, but the majority of the pack was unchanged.

https://www.thegamecreators.com/post/gameguru-mega-pack-3-dlc-updated-3

It later became apparent that, as with the building pack before it, the quality control just wasn't there, and many of the models lacked smoothing groups so would render incorrectly in Game Guru. That's where GraPhix and Pirate Myke heroically stepped in, volunteering to take on the task of updating mega pack 3, a pack of over 400 models, themselves. Even though they said they'd do it voluntarily, that's a hell of a lot of work, so Lee - quite rightly in my opinion - decided to offer them the small amount accumulated in the media-fixing donation pot.

tdreisinger wrote: "If that is true then you are basically saying "we cannot have all the updates until the community forks out more money" and even worse you are blatantly lying to a strong and mostly loyal community."

No he's not, he's just saying if community members continue to take on the lion's share of the DLC updates, they should be compensated. Let's face it, last year we were only getting little smatterings of DLC updates, a dozen objects here and there, and most did not fix the underlying smoothing group issues.

If I had a choice between letting whatever amateur was sporadically fixing the packs last year do it, or GraPhix and Myke, I'd rather go for the latter as I trust GraPhix and Myke to do a great job.

AE
HarryWever
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Posted: 10th May 2019 09:31 Edited at: 10th May 2019 09:31
Thank you very much, GraPhix and Pirate myke. I can imaging This was a lot of work.but you all did a great job.. many thanks...
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Belidos
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Posted: 10th May 2019 09:41
Yup, a big thanks to Kev and Myke, they've done a grand job.

I was looking into helping out, but after seeing the geometry of some of the older DLC models i just shut down the PC while slowly banging my head against my desk and weeping quietly. Some of the older models are really badly made, doubled up geometry, ngons from hell, loose vertices, inverted normals, no smoothing groups, everything bad you could find with a model was in them, it would have meant literally remaking the model to fix.

So yeah well done guys, must have been a ton of work.

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Posted: 10th May 2019 10:27
@GraPhix/Pyrate Myke: awesome stuff, excellent job, that must have been quite a task. well done to you both.
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UNIRD12B
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Posted: 10th May 2019 14:33
Hi guys,
a quick question.
If we already own MP3 does it automatically update to the latest fixes version on Steam ?

Thx

UNIRD12B
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Bolt Action Gaming
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Posted: 10th May 2019 14:52
Question, if you don't own MP3 but do own the buildings pack, does this affect the models in the buildings pack?
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 10th May 2019 15:12
@ all.
Thank you.

If you own Mega Pack 3 then you should start seeing the updates for it. Not sure about the building pack as that was updated a while ago.
I am showing the PBR assets in that folder.
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Posted: 10th May 2019 15:26
@GraPhix/Pyrate Myke:
big thanks for your work.
have to agree with belidos looking at the old media is a nightmare,

Quote belidos.
Some of the older models are really badly made, doubled up geometry, ngons from hell, loose vertices, inverted normals, no smoothing groups, everything bad you could find with a model was in them, it would have meant literally remaking the model to fix.
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 10th May 2019 15:34
The old models were not in the greatest of shape.
Most were just remade, if they could not be fixed. It was faster then fiddling with them.

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GraPhiX
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Posted: 10th May 2019 16:40
Thank you for the appreciation and you are most welcome
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Posted: 10th May 2019 17:02
Quote: "Some of the older models are really badly made, doubled up geometry, ngons from hell, loose vertices, inverted normals, no smoothing groups, everything bad you could find with a model was in them, it would have meant literally remaking the model to fix."


And we wonder why GG has no many weird bugs/issues? Much of it is bad media The default trees have issues as well in places (or used to, likely still do).
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Belidos
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Posted: 10th May 2019 17:37
Quote: "And we wonder why GG has no many weird bugs/issues? Much of it is bad media "


Yup, here's an example, this is the corner piece for the asylum set, look at the state of that geometry, it would take hours to fixe, and you would end up with a whole new model doing it.


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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 10th May 2019 18:49 Edited at: 10th May 2019 18:56
Quote: "this is the corner piece for the asylum set, look at the state of that geometry"


My favourite is the door from the asylum set that distorts as the door handle animates....and that's a fairly recent example. Once you start dipping back into the FPSC model packs, you find loads of little idiosyncrasies like that. Funny, I remember making a post on TGC forums in about 2011 about the quality (or lack thereof) of some of the FPSC model packs.

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rolfy
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Posted: 10th May 2019 22:02 Edited at: 10th May 2019 22:25
Quote: "Yup, here's an example, this is the corner piece for the asylum set, look at the state of that geometry, it would take hours to fixe, and you would end up with a whole new model doing it."
I take it your talking about the roof, if you bother to look a little more closely you will find that is bunches of small planes with random rotations and placement to give a little more detail to the tiles. The roof underneath has a nice flat featureless appearance that may suit your modeling style better. If that is a mess you feel you need to fix you can easily remove them and you might as well remove all the random leaf planes from all the trees while your at it since the same principle applies.

This cheap method of creating random detail on roofs seems to be good enough for AAA studios such as Ubisoft so I would think it would be good enough for Gameguru. Maybe GameGuru has a number of high quality community modelers who could 'fix' it for them..
Teabone
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Posted: 10th May 2019 22:33
While not all of the items in the Mega Pack 3 are updated, not all of the items that were updated have all of their updates:

https://github.com/TheGameCreators/GameGuruRepo/issues/507
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tdreisinger
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Posted: 10th May 2019 22:47
I do not see most of these recorded updates in the "official release of the updates" .... https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/220334?page=1

Which leads me back to my initial post ... the updates are done but are not released, why?
Timothy D. Reisinger
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Posted: 11th May 2019 09:22
@Rolfy ive examined 8t in depth and while there are some parts doing what you mention, there is no flat part underneath, and im not talking about little pieces to define tiles, im talking about various twisted ngons, z clashing faces, and floating vertices that are not connected to any edges or faces, there are also faces on there that aren't even uv unwrapped, its probably not that obvious in the picture, nut they're there. If you look on the roof in tha pic, on the jeft you can see a face that runs vertically from apex to ridge, its completely sideways to the model, so definitely not intended, when i removed it, it turned out to be a massive ngon and half the rooif deleted itself, looks like it was meant to have edge loops to match the line of the roof but the vertices were missing and the edge straightened out, the asylum models are full of that kind of issue.

Saying that though, ive only tried importing them onto fragmotion and back out in obj to look at them in blender, so it might be something in that process breaking them, but ive never had that issue with other models I've imported, just some of the older ones from gameguru.

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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 11th May 2019 10:07 Edited at: 11th May 2019 10:08
I got the same thing when I opened up the model in Fragmotion too. Figured Fragmotion might be triangulating the model unnecessarily, maybe the original supported quads, but I had a look in engine and it's there too. Although, tbh, how often do we see the roof of a building?



It actually looks like the model went through some kind of poly reduction tool. Either that, or there's a LOD mesh buried in there somewhere that's been merged into the same group as a full model.

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Posted: 11th May 2019 10:29 Edited at: 11th May 2019 10:35
nope its not lods just a poor model, nearly a thousand faces the roof is definitely fubar albeit there are only a couple of NGON's







it can be fixed just like the rest just a bit of TLC the UV does not help either


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3com
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Posted: 11th May 2019 20:11 Edited at: 11th May 2019 20:35
Eh guys where that asylum set are?
Edit: I've got it on Building pack.
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3com
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Posted: 11th May 2019 21:10
About fence I just have fpe file inside the folder.



Any clue?
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synchromesh
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Posted: 11th May 2019 22:45
Quote: "About fence I just have fpe file inside the folder."

Fence ?
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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3com
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Posted: 12th May 2019 10:36
@ synchromesh
After last update (yesterday) I've end with those 3 folders named almost exactly as you can see in the pic, but does not matter, I had removed that folder with only fence fpe file inside, and the other with non pbr items. I Just keep the pbr items folder.
After that I've check files via steam, and steam re-download the non pbr items folder again, so now I have one folder named Office_Industrial props (pbr ones) and other named Office_Industial props again, does this is normal?

@ GraPhiX and Mike
Thanks guys for the hard job

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synchromesh
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Posted: 12th May 2019 10:46 Edited at: 12th May 2019 10:47
Ahh not sure why you had a third folder but the reason you have two is because the folder was originally incorrectly spelt " industial " and the correct spelt folder "industrial " was submitted .. Im guessing the misspelt folder had to stay or many users maps may have suddenly have missing models ..
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Posted: 12th May 2019 11:05
Quote: " Im guessing the misspelt folder had to stay or many users maps may have suddenly have missing models .."

Yes, you are right. Ty 4 clarify.
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Earthling45
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Posted: 13th May 2019 02:22
These models are very well done, thanks Pirate Myke and GraPhiX.

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Posted: 13th May 2019 02:33
Also in buildings, Church, quite a beautiful church with a bel and detail, lod stages but with many mistakes.
It looks good in GG though, but with +5mb quite heavy.
SpaceWurm
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Posted: 13th May 2019 12:21
Quote: "And we wonder why GG has no many weird bugs/issues? Much of it is bad media"


Much of it is bad media? Oh no my friend, sure there may be "heavy" assets but GG still runs at potato frames a second.
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 13th May 2019 12:24
Hi all thank you for the comments just a heads up if you have the latest DLC update ONLY the items in the following folders are the work of Myke and I

Furniture\
Scenery\Office & Industrial props\
Scenery\Sports\


any other folder with items marked with an 'H' are the failed PBR updates and not the re worked ones.

there is more to come once testing/submission is complete.....
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Posted: 13th May 2019 16:04
Thanks @Graphix
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Posted: 17th May 2019 01:43
Hope it's not too late for this request, but while
we are talking about updating things in the genre of--
SPORTS, what we could use in that pack is a ball....
now you say we have a ball, we have several balls.

But at what >>resolution<< of a sphere are the "balls"?
We can enlarge them and count the angles in them.
In other words, I've seen some balls available all over
GG folders that are rough-- not smooth, almost like
cut stones rolling over concrete! Haha. Anyways,
unless something has changed-- yes I just checked it...
they could use about double the circular resolution-- if
at all possible that would be very nice. They need to be
able to roll smoothly, not bounce and meander all over the place.

We could be interested in balls that are scripted or used to
>>>move! and aren't stationary- after all.
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 17th May 2019 08:38
Quote: "But at what >>resolution<< of a sphere are the "balls"?
We can enlarge them and count the angles in them."


Hi please remember round assets can be perfectly round at a cost in faces, the more faces (polygons) the smoother and rounder it can be i.e a basic sphere with 24 sides (slight angles visible) will be about 200 - 400 faces if we increase the sides by 4x say 96 sides we would have a perfect round ball but the face count would be considerably higher at around 4000 - 5000 this would be classed as a medium to high polycount rather than a low count.
if you really want a perfect round ball I will make a Ball for you with 96 sides that you can try
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Belidos
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Posted: 17th May 2019 09:12
Quote: "Hi please remember round assets can be perfectly round at a cost in faces, the more faces (polygons) the smoother and rounder it can be i.e a basic sphere with 24 sides (slight angles visible) will be about 200 - 400 faces if we increase the sides by 4x say 96 sides we would have a perfect round ball but the face count would be considerably higher at around 4000 - 5000 this would be classed as a medium to high polycount rather than a low count.
if you really want a perfect round ball I will make a Ball for you with 96 sides that you can try"


I totally agree with Kev's assessment. To make a ball that is perfectly smooth it will take a lot of poly's, and for a small object like that 4k to 5k is really high.

But, (i know you know, and this is for the benefit of others who don't know) also bare in mind that with regards to low or high poly, there's not really a defined number, mostly it depends on the model and is very subjective. A small model with very little detail may be considered high poly once it hits 100 poly's, but a larger model with detail, may not be classed as high poly until it hits 10k polys, and so on.

This is something that has been really difficult for me in the past because i'm very ordered in my work, and not being able to say to myself "X number is high poly, don't go over that number" goes against everything my brain tells me. So basically, for those who wonder where low poly starts and ends, there's no fixed formula, the way i think of it is ... always try to use the least amount of poly's possible to make it look as good as possible, if you can't reduce the poly's any more without it starting to look wrong, then it's low poly for that model ... also remember that you don't always have to add detail to your models, you can add it in the textures if you need to, and also you could make a high and low poly version and as long as the overall geometry of the low poly covers the geometry of the high poly you can bake a normal map from the high poly to the low poly to fake the detail on the low poly.

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GraPhiX
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Posted: 17th May 2019 10:14 Edited at: 17th May 2019 10:18
it is also worth noting that most game engines will triangulate an asset effectively doubling the face count so a quad with 4000 faces triangulated will be around 8000 faces

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Belidos
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Posted: 17th May 2019 10:17
Yup, the engines do that to help with smoothing so that it's not warping the quads too much. That's why i like Blender, because it tells you how many tri's it would be converted into as well as how many faces it has, so i always go by the tri count to be on the safe side.

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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 17th May 2019 16:14
Oh, yeah, I see what you guys are saying -- as said above.
So, that's a no?

I guess if people want a more smooth ball, they will have
to choose between smoothness, and performance.

BTW-- a question. This request is not for the looks of the object,
but for the best rolling effect when wanting ball to roll around.
Does the physics box around the ball correlate directly with the model?
Or is it engine produced? It wouldn't be much help creating a nicely
smooth ball and then the box sphere for physics is still rough. ??

I guess I would make one generic smooth ball (that the user can modify
the texture on) and let them have a go at it, see what they can do. Thanks guys!
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 17th May 2019 16:23 Edited at: 17th May 2019 16:27
I have just done a test with Two Balls:

1. the soccer ball from Mega Pack 3 224 polys (448 tris) - Collision Mode set to 2 in fpe and set object to dynamic
2. a ball I have just created with 96 sides 4500 polys (9000 tris) - Collision Mode set to 2 in fpe and set object to dynamic

also UV mapping a sphere is not an easy task it is very hard or near impossible to not get texture stretching at the poles, much like when you inflate a balloon the top of the balloon will distort and stretch its material.



as you can clearly see from the video BOTH balls react the same way so low poly is the way to go in this instance the extra polys are not worth it
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 17th May 2019 20:27 Edited at: 17th May 2019 22:17
Wow, Nice! Any chance you would mind sharing that new ball?
I wouldn't mind experimenting!

Edit -- my stock MP3 soccer ball was still bouncing ,
some. I changed the fpe collision to 2.
Okay now better.
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 17th May 2019 20:35
yeah sure here ya go 9000 polys worth lol
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synchromesh
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Posted: 17th May 2019 20:38 Edited at: 17th May 2019 20:41
@Graphix
Nice and you kind of just explained how planets, orbits and gravity work
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 17th May 2019 22:18
Sweet! That ball is insane. Rolls like a Rolls Royce!
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 20th May 2019 00:02
When you choose collisionmode=2 what you get is a perfect sphere collision shape for physics purposes regardless of how many polygons are in the mesh. (try giving a crate collisionmode=2 to see what I mean)

In a similar way collisionmode=3 gives you a perfect cylinder.

Any other mode for a dynamic entity will give you a box shape.

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DVader
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Posted: 21st May 2019 23:55
@AmenMoses. You beat me too it You don't really need a high poly ball to roll around properly I'm sure a lot of fun can be had by playing around with the physics stuff. GG has certainly improved in that area of late.

@Landman. There is certainly some bad media in the default library and also some DLC. I think it could have been weeded out a long time ago. Replaced with more suitable media. Sure the engine is still pretty slow, but the bad media merely exacerbates it. There have been some updates of late on the DLC stuff so that is a step in the right direction. I really think the default media should be given a once over for any overly hogging objects though. e.g. The trees and foliage at the very least as they will be the most used overall.
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