3rd Party Models/Media Chat / Smoothing and Light-map issues - How to fix?

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OldFlak
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Posted: 10th Jun 2018 11:56 Edited at: 10th Jun 2018 15:00
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Hi all

I have long wanted to get to the root of smoothing and light-map issues that I come across with various models. I feel it is pretty much certain that any such issues are more to do with models than the Game Guru engine - in short it is what I am doing wrong.

I have a PBR Freebies thread in which the Pickup model there is completely destroyed by the light-map process.

After reading Stabs thread here about these issues and applying the fixes suggested the Pickup model just refuses to play the game!

So I am kind of hoping you talented bunch can shed some light on why this model just does not light map correctly.

I have gone over this model a few time looking for any loose vertices\edges\faces or duplicates, but I be pretty sure it is all cleaned up.

This is how the model looks in Blender:


This is how it looks when opened in Fragmotion (perhaps the normals may be wrong causing the weird shading):


This is how it looks in Fragmotion after correcting smoothing groups in Wings:


Notice how the model is right-hand drive in Blender, and left-hand drive in Fragmotion (same in wings). When exported as .x from frag it is right-hand drive again

This is the results in Game Guru:


Any ideas what is going on here?

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Posted: 10th Jun 2018 19:27 Edited at: 10th Jun 2018 19:32
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Hi Reliquia
I will do a basic video tutorial tomorrow and try to explain these 'smoothing groups' people seem to be having problems with, as far as the lightmapping is concerned can you do the 'debug' test in real time and on the light mapped model (by debug I mean press F11 in test game twice then press numbers 1 -9 to show the individual maps) I specifically like to see the albedo and metalness maps. if you could do it has a video that would be great

Also I think you may be getting confused with your normals, the issue you have are to do with Vertex Normals and not texture normals, vertex normals are basically face boundaries or soft/hard edges, texture normals, are displacement/height information. also NGON's can cause the issue of corrupt vertex normals, I will explain with a video demonstration tomorrow.
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Posted: 10th Jun 2018 22:58
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Obviously without looking into this model we can't know definitively if the model is contributing to the issues here, but I am not sure I agree with the thesis of the thread - I think most of the issues here ARE the result of problems with the lightmapper, not the model.

For example, on GITHUB it has been reported that the lightmapper is ignoring emissive maps, detail maps and removing reflective - and also seemingly arbitrarily ignoring smoothing groups on models and creating hard/split edges where smoothing exists before lightmapping.

https://github.com/TheGameCreators/GameGuruRepo/issues/221

We see pretty much all of these symptoms on this model. Just looking at the metal inside of the wheel - metalness/reflectiveness information seems to be gone after light mapping, and the inside of the wheel has at least one edge that has been transformed from smooth to hard.

As for the change in brightness & contrast, that is probably just the lightmapper not matching the realtime lighting perfectly as opposed to something "broken."

Obviously it is good to learn new things and improve modeling technique, but I worry that if you chalk all this up to your own errors you will be beating your head against a wall, as some of it is out of your hands for now.
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 00:09 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 00:09
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Hi all

Thanks for the input

@GraPhiX, ok will do a video later tonight. Also there are no NGON's, that was the first thing I checked - the texturing for this is done mainly in Substance, which usually will not work with a model with NGON's present. However I will look again

@lorddweeb, OK I was under the impression the ligh-mapping issues were mostly sorted. The reason I think this model is causng the issues is that I have a Scout model I have been playing with that seams to have none of the issues the Pickup has. Here is a pic that shows there is pretty much no discernible difference between Real Time and Pre-Bake:



Since I use the same techniques when creating these models, it just bugs me that one survives the Light-map process and the other is trashed by it completely.

I have also notice with the Scout - when over terrain - has no shadows at all when light-mapped even if they are turned up to 100. My guess is it is because it is using apbr_illum.fx but haven't tested that theory yet.

Thanks for the feed back guys

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Belidos
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 08:41
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Quote: " vertex normals are basically face boundaries or soft/hard edges, texture normals, are displacement/height information"


Smoothing group normals can be either vertex or edge. There's also a third type of normals to make things even more confusing, these are the face/edge/vertex directions, they tell the engine which side of a face etc is inside and which is outside for texturing. Modelling can get very confusing lol.
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 12:20
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thanks Belidos,

I have done a basic video on how I deal with smoothing, it may not be the correct way but it works for me https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/219746#msg2601456
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 13:45 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 14:02
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I can confirm lightmapping is broken, it looks as though the maps are merged, if you watch the video the stools on the inside have been lightmapped (F3) the ones on the outside are realtime

the results are the same in Public Preview and the latest Beta.

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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:12
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Ok I have been playing around and found that any Static model will not lightmap if you make the model Dynamic it will lightmap correctly.

@reliquia can you check this on your Jeep model make it dynamic and lightmap it please
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:45
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truck on left is dynamic

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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:45 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 14:49
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Hi all

Quote: "can you check this on your Jeep model make it dynamic and lightmap it please"

Thanks for the input I will give it a go after work tomorrow.

I was just thinking that the Scout works fine, but it is using apbr_illum.fx, so might see if it gets trashed when using apbr_basic.fx.

In the mean time here's the video you requested


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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:48
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Quote: "Thanks for the input I will give it a go after work tomorrow."


LOL I took the liberty of doing it for you
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:51
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Correct me if I'm wrong on this but wouldn't the dynamic model look fine only because the lightmapper essentially ignores dynamic models and they get rendered in the normal realtime process instead, with the usual drawbacks - mainly no shadows from lights other than the sun? (In other words, a level with all dynamic models would essentially not be lightmapped, Even after running the light mapper. )
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:55
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Quote: "Correct me if I'm wrong on this but wouldn't the dynamic model look fine only because the lightmapper essentially ignores dynamic models and they get rendered in the normal realtime process instead, with the usual drawbacks - mainly no shadows from lights other than the sun? (In other words, a level with all dynamic models would essentially not be lightmapped, Even after running the light mapper. ) "


possibly but I did not know that so yep I have probably just wasted my time
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Belidos
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 15:21
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Lordddweeb is correct. The lightmapper does not light map dynamic entities, only static entities.
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 15:25
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yep I'm the dumbest guy around here
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 23:58 Edited at: 12th Jun 2018 00:05
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Hi all
Thanks for all the help and feedback

Quote: "yep I'm the dumbest guy around here"

Na not true - we all learning.

So I ran a test on the Scout model which has illumination - as I suspected when using apbr_basic.fx as the Pickup does this model also gets trashed and transparencies don't work either, however if using apbr_illum.fx it seams to work fine on all accounts.

This is the same Scout model as in previous pics, but I just changed the FPE to use abpr_basic.fx in stead of apbr_illum.fx:


Also models using apbr_illum.fx have no shadows after light-mpping either. Anyhow now I am wondering if models using apbr_illum.fx are getting light-mapped at all ....

In trying to sort this stuff out, one thing I have concluded is that while .x models that are exported from Fragmotion look better (thanks stab), but the Light-Map process however is still broken on multiple fronts.

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Belidos
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 10:07
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Quote: "Notice how the model is right-hand drive in Blender, and left-hand drive in Fragmotion (same in wings). When exported as .x from frag it is right-hand drive again"


There's an option in Blenders .X exporter to flip the handedness, i forgot what it's called right now, but it's just a check box that mirrors everything on the Y (in blender) axis.
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 10:52
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transparency in single x file - https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/219752#msg2601513
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Posted: 13th Jun 2018 17:19
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Is what's being discussed here about lightmaps not working well probably what's causing my white brick wall model to become insanely bright when I run lightmaps?

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Posted: 13th Jun 2018 20:52
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yes lightmapping is fubar, once light mapped change your settings to medium that kind of works but it is still wrong

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Posted: 13th Jun 2018 23:18 Edited at: 13th Jun 2018 23:21
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@JimH yep I think the problem with your wall is not your work but the light-mapper

@GraPhix - that is not fubur (great word by the way), that is the new cartoon transformation module - lol

I think the light-mapper is broken on several fronts.

Removes smoothing
Wrecks color
May or may not ruin transparency
Pretty sure it ignores models using apbr_illum.fx

So it will great to see how it works in the next release.

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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 08:07
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Quote: "Pretty sure it ignores models using apbr_illum.fx "


You don't need to use apbr_illum.fx to get ullumination, just name your illumination texture as _illumination and use the pbr basic.
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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 10:45 Edited at: 14th Jun 2018 10:47
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Wow - Thanks Belidos - When did that change?

I have been using scout_illumination.dds but I be sure there were instructions posted somewhere around here that said models using illumination should use apbr_illum.fx

But just look back a few of my posts in this thread where I tested the Scout with pbr_basic.fx and it not only had no illumination, but got trashed by the light-map process, although nowhere near as bad as the Pickup

Now I just tested the ship Scout with pbr_basic.fx and for sure the illumination map is working. The really weird thing is this light-maps intact as well now.

This is light-mapped (2) and while the platform which is not pbr has some parts completely shadowed by, well nothing, the Scout is fine.


No idea what is going on here - lol

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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 11:12 Edited at: 14th Jun 2018 11:12
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hi Reliquia have you got the entity shader set to medium or high? also is it static or dynamic? lightmaps kind of work if the settings are medium, if you have that set to highest and the model is static I am not sure how you got it to work
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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 12:20
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Quote: "Wow - Thanks Belidos - When did that change?"


I think it always worked since illumination was added to pbr, you may have read the early version of my guide in which i mentioned you need to use the illum fx because Myke told me so, but later GraPhix confirmed you don't need to change the shader so i edited it.
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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 12:54 Edited at: 14th Jun 2018 13:05
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OK, so to test the illumination was working with using apbr_basic.fx, I just changed the reference in FPE that was already in my GG folder system, and as above it appeared to work.

However when I re-opened the map this is what I got:


It is a little hard to see in the pic, but the illumination map is now tiled over the whole model, and illumination is not working.

So I deleted the Scout folders from GG and then copied them over again from my dev drive with the changes to FPE and it is the same - the illumination map gets tiled over the whole model when using apbr_basic when an illumination map is present.

To get it working again I had to change the reference in the FPE back to apbr_illum.fx. So from my tests you can't use apbr_basic for illumination to work correctly.

Now isn't all this a fun exercise - lol.

However I just searched and found this thread by Preben in which he states we don't have to do anything and illumination will work out of the box for both PBR and Non-PBR, but there is no infor in there about FPE settings, so i think I might get steam to verify my system and see what happens after that.....

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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 13:15 Edited at: 14th Jun 2018 13:19
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yes funky things going on with lightmapping its all random at what happens, I have set my street lights to apbr_basic and light mapped video of the result incoming,



I must be losing my marbles because I don't remember animating the lights
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Posted: 14th Jun 2018 13:49 Edited at: 15th Jun 2018 01:04
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Yep that be weird GraPhix lol.

So verified via steam and tested again using illumination with apbr_basic, and it now seams to work proper like - but not good with the light-map procedure:


Illumination works in Real Time but not after light-mapping, and the model gets trashed in the process. On this model the transparency gets destroyed too, but that is likely because I just can't get Blender or Fragmotion to keep the glass where I put it when exporting to .x....

The transparency works fine if I export the model to .x from Blender, trouble there is that Frag.x works better with PBR....

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Posted: 18th Jun 2018 00:21
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I was looking at the bug thread on github and apparently Lee Bamber isn't having the problem on his computer. So I'm wondering if not everyone is and thus might have something to do with graphics cards. I have a Radeon RX560. Does everyone else having this problem have an AMD card?
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Posted: 18th Jun 2018 09:12
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Quote: " Does everyone else having this problem have an AMD card?"


Hi JimH I wish it was as simple as that, but afraid not we have our system specifications in our forum signatures
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JimH
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Posted: 18th Jun 2018 10:42
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Oh, I didn't see that.

This is disconcerting because even the stock entities shine bright after light mapping and from what I understand more than three dynamic lights causes problems. So essentially a level is confined to being made completely outdoors in real time sunlight.
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Posted: 19th Jun 2018 02:11
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yeah from what i have gathered in 3 or 4 tests, the lightmapper is now completely destroyed in X11, in either mode.
in x9 however, it seems to still work pretty darn well if i do say so myself?
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 13:24
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Just to chime in a little, the light-mapper is a non-PBR process right now, so anything you subject to the process will convert entities to a non-PBR rendering (pre-DX11) behavior, so gloss, metalness, illumination, and ao will be ignored. The light-mapped objects also use a non-PBR shader so will use legacy lighting calculations too. I am still working on some ideas for the solution, and approaching the idea that it might be prudent to keep the PBR shaders rendering all content, and somehow feed in the extra lightmap image data and extra UV channel to the core PBR shader system. This way your render is otherwise unaffected, but with the addition of an extra layer of baked light and shadow. Bear in mind however that when you bake lighting, it's not 100% in-line with the Physically Based Rendering model (which requires real-time rendering) which is why I have hesitated thus far from writing what might seem an oxymoron, i.e. A PBR light-mapper.
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Belidos
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 13:34
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Which means currently it is useless to light map, and because we can't light map we can't use static lights, which means because we are limited to three dynamic lights visible at once it's impossible to light a large outside scene well because the lights pop in and out all over the place as you move.

If you are going to leave it this way (even if you tweak it to make it a bit better) can you please look at increasing the number of lights visible at once to alleviate this problem, maybe 9 or 12?
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GraPhiX
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 13:41
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Quote: " Bear in mind however that when you bake lighting, it's not 100% in-line with the Physically Based Rendering model (which requires real-time rendering) which is why I have hesitated thus far from writing what might seem an oxymoron, i.e. A PBR light-mapper."


IF PBR lighting is supposed to be realtime then would it not be better to increase dynamic lighting instead, and an easier way of creating cube map too think its called probes lol instead of baking PBR levels, all we are short of is lights and cube mapping
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OldFlak
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 15:21
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Hi all

Thanks for the feedback Lee - at least we know we are not the worst modellers in the CG world

Oh goody - yes get rid of the light mapper - moahhahahahahaaaa

Yes give us more lights- please

As for lights - it should be up to the developer to determine how many lights a given level can handle - not the engine. If I want to put down 5, 10 , 15, or more then I should be able to. Now the engine might tell me I can't do that by the FPS it delivers, and then I would have to remove\redesign\rethink the layout of course - but the point is I want to be in control

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Belidos
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 16:03
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Even setting the light mapper to completely ignore PBR entities would be an improvement.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 18:40
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The FPS takes a pounding if go beyond 5 lights at the moment.

Think it will need a deferred rendering approach which I assume isn't a trivial change to GG.

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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 20:43
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Quote: "The FPS takes a pounding if go beyond 5 lights at the moment.
"


mmmmm i have 12 dynamic lights in a level i am working on at the moment and my FPS is ok only 2 are on at a time mind you thats the effect i wanted, what i would really like is some reflection probes, i would prefer to build a massive internal structure so that i can turn off terrain, the map i am building atm will be a multiplayer test map, the distance between dynamic lights works perfectly for me at the moment so i can have more than 3 but at the centre of my map will need to be very bright and this is where i will get stuck
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 22:48
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You can have as many dynamic lights as you want but only the nearest 3 will actually be involved in the lighting, as already stated if you have more than 3 'active' the FPS will dramatically drop off so to avoid that the engine only activates the nearest 3.

This is not something limited to GG btw, all the DX tutorials mention the limitation and state that you need a deferred rendering approach to avoid the problem.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2018 12:45
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Yes I meant five active lights

I changed the shader to run 15 at once and performance ground to a halt. Then dialled it back gradually and got to 5 where it was kind of playable but not worth it, so eventually just reverted back to the stock 3. I design the levels to try and compensate for this now rather than worry about it any more.

I’m fully converted to real time only for lighting and shadows so I never use the light mapper. I find the fps is just as good with very recent versions of GG.

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