Product Chat / Mega Pack 3 Industrial PBR FIASCO

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Stab in the Dark software
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Posted: 16th May 2018 20:29 Edited at: 16th May 2018 20:29
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Really, TGC you keep putting out botched model packs.
How about a little quality control. These models have no smoothing groups.
The normals are not correct. Look at the difference in pics below.

Please get your artist to watch this video.

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synchromesh
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Posted: 16th May 2018 21:37 Edited at: 16th May 2018 22:06
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They are just old classic models tweaked a little as stated. Not sure they look better though

Quote: "improved Physically Based textures for the entire industrial folder including buildings, bridge pieces, and machinery."

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Posted: 16th May 2018 22:01
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I think the real news was below
Quote: "Back in the main product, in addition to the previously mentioned video memory savings, we are also working on testing a new underwater state, so you can explore the watery deep for the first time. We don't have fully fleshed out underwater swimming dynamics yet, but you can be sure they won't be far behind this first implementation and brings you a step closer to adding new environments for your next game making project. Watch out for more news on this forthcoming update."


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Posted: 16th May 2018 23:00
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@Stab : Indeed, no work has been done to the model geometry, just the textures to provide PBR texture sets. The original artist has probably moved on now but we are always open to models being updated and submitted to us (and indeed we had lots of help so far improving models), but with over 6GB of them it may take some time to get around to updating them all!

A question for the community, do you want to see work done on smoothing groups to the existing DLC assets rather than more PBR texture sets being created? We can't do everything at once, but we can prioritize what gets done first and will always aim to do updates that the majority can enjoy.
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Posted: 16th May 2018 23:08 Edited at: 16th May 2018 23:08
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"How about a little quality control. "
Well, yes I have to agree...

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If you you hit one object, there's no feedback, no sound, nothing... at least they have collision detection.
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Posted: 17th May 2018 12:00
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Quote: "A question for the community, do you want to see work done on smoothing groups to the existing DLC assets rather than more PBR texture sets being created? We can't do everything at once, but we can prioritize what gets done first and will always aim to do updates that the majority can enjoy."


Isn't it better to take one pack at a time and overhaul it completely so that the models are properly before releasing it?
When i did start with the boxes, the first thing i did was looking at the D/N/S version of the military box, it had black patches so i first used wings3d to do the smoothing groups before doing the pbr textures.

I do agree with Stab on this matter, it might take a bit longer but you'll deliver proper quality.

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Posted: 17th May 2018 15:17 Edited at: 17th May 2018 15:17
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I was not going to comment on this thread, but I have to agree too, throwing your user base a bone to keep interest is ok but to 'Band Aid' old assets and not re do them is not a good idea you will end up with threads like this one

If I am totally honest all that would keep me interested is a Weekly Blog, I miss your blogs and I think it would go a long way if you could allocate an hour a week and Blog about what you have or have not achieved in the past week.

The DLC packs do need bringing up to date but also a standard to match, I offer my services to help fix some of these assets but I would require the .obj files I have all the DLC's but would rather work on a source than an exported X that may have gone wrong anyway.
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Posted: 17th May 2018 15:20
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Yes, weekly blog and regular updates would be good, just be nice to know what tweaks and additions have been put in the latest beta.
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Belidos
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Posted: 17th May 2018 16:54
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Quote: " I offer my services to help fix some of these assets but I would require the .obj files "


You will probably never get them, there probably weren't any OBJ files created in the first place, and most of the authors who made the older DLC packs are long gone. You would have to load them into fragmotion, and export them as OBJ as the video Stab posted shows.

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Posted: 17th May 2018 22:29
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When I first saw Stab's video I changed a whole bunch of models that I was using, unfortunately I neither kept a record of which ones nor made a backup copy … so … ooops.
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Posted: 18th May 2018 22:33
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TGC's contracted artist does things of good quality as can be seen in the scifi pack.

Now, those mega packs are a mixture of previously licensed modelpacks for FPSCreator by various artists, a lot not being around the community any more. As far as I can see, TGC just added the PBR textures.

The industrial models there, I believe, are from an old pack by Arteria 3D.
The only reason I bring this up is to clear the misconception that these packs have been made by TGC employees directly.



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Posted: 19th May 2018 02:45
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I got them free some how!?!? It was a while ago. I'm very confused?
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Posted: 19th May 2018 10:40
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OK putting all the where's and why's regarding whether TGC should or should not release packs with full reworking can I just congratulate Stab in the Dark on a really great tutorial. Do some more mate, you're a natural. Thanks.
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Posted: 19th May 2018 14:13
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Thought I would add a video to Stab in the Darks tutorial for those who use Blender, here's how to create and control smooth edges in Blender.


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Posted: 19th May 2018 17:09
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Great video Belidos Thanks.
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Posted: 19th May 2018 22:57
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Nice little vid Belidos,simple and clear

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Posted: 9th Jun 2018 14:17 Edited at: 9th Jun 2018 14:19
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Hi all

@Stab - great video thanks for that.

So been messing with smoothing and light-mapping and have some questions.

Blender smoothing:
- the method Belidos shows is the way I have been doing it
- but I get mixed results with models exported as .x - some work some don't
- if you open a Blender.x file in Frag (even after using the exact method that Belidos describes) there are no smoothing groups
- so is there a way to tell Blender to export the smoothing groups?

Frag exports:
- when GG encounters a .x file it creates a .dbo
- so is there any point to exporting a .x file from frag?
- is it not easier to just export a .dbo in the first place?

why is this so:
- if you open a .obj with correct smoothing in frag you can see the smoothing groups (as per stabs video)
- if you export that as .x and then reopen in frag it will not have any smoothing groups

Any further info would be helpful and appreciated.

Note frag .x files definitely look better than blender.x files in Game Guru
All these pics are of the same model exported as Blender.x and Frag.x and light-mapped (2)





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Belidos
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Posted: 9th Jun 2018 16:48
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Yeah it looks like blender doesn't actually export smoothing groups, bit of a pain that, try adding and applying an edge split modifier before exporting and see if that helps.
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Posted: 9th Jun 2018 21:11 Edited at: 9th Jun 2018 21:22
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Quote: "Frag exports:
- when GG encounters a .x file it creates a .dbo
- so is there any point to exporting a .x file from frag?
- is it not easier to just export a .dbo in the first place?"


I worked with the author of Fragmotion awhile back to get it to export to .x
correctly for DBPro and GG. I am not sure that Fragmotion exports .DBO
correctly for GG now as GG has changed how it saves .dbo.

Quote: "why is this so:
- if you open a .obj with correct smoothing in frag you can see the smoothing groups (as per stabs video)
- if you export that as .x and then reopen in frag it will not have any smoothing groups"


Yes, I have also noticed it. It seems even thou you do not see a smoothing group in Frag when reopening a .x it still
has the correct normals/smoothing groups. If you export it again it will still have the correct normals/smoothing groups.
I think when Frag reads the .x file, the .x format does not put the vertices normals into smoothing groups
so it does not list them like an .obj file. Smoothing groups are just one way of describing the vertices normals into different groups based on the angle of an edge. As Belidos posted Blender calls it a edge split modifier. Basically this is unwelding the vertices so they can have different normals for the different faces. In Wings it is called a Hard or Soft edge, a hard edge is unwelded vertices with normals pointing in different directions for the 2 vertices at the same location. A soft edge has 1 vertex with 1 normal which describes the edge.To more broadly describe it, the model needs the correct normals for vertices so GG can calculate the lighting for the shaders and the lightmapping.
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Posted: 10th Jun 2018 00:14 Edited at: 10th Jun 2018 00:21
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Hi all

Belidos - will try that - thanks

Quote: "I am not sure that Fragmotion exports .DBO
correctly for GG now as GG has changed how it saves .dbo."

OK that makes sense - thanks STAB.

Another interesting thing is the way each respective .x handles transparencies.
In the models above note the glass on the cockpit:
- it is part of the model for the Blender.x version and works perfectly both in Real Time shading and when light-mapped
- if I make it part of the model on the Frag.x version the transparencies don't work in either Real Time or when light-mapped. But works fine when the glass is a separate model.

I usually set transparency = 3 in the FPE. I also tried 6 but same result.
There are some inconsistencies in various post around these forums as to what exactly we should be using for this.

Any thoughts....

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Belidos
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 09:01
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Looking in to this, it does look like GameGuru ignores Blenders soft/hard edges when using the auto tool. So it's best to add an edge split modifier to split the vertices, if you're going to export .X for Gameguru, when i can use my hand again (trapped nerve, can't feel fingers, taking forever to type!) i'll either update the video or create an addendum video to include explaining the edge split modifier.
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 09:18
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Quote: "Another interesting thing is the way each respective .x handles transparencies.
In the models above note the glass on the cockpit:
- it is part of the model for the Blender.x version and works perfectly both in Real Time shading and when light-mapped
- if I make it part of the model on the Frag.x version the transparencies don't work in either Real Time or when light-mapped. But works fine when the glass is a separate model.

I usually set transparency = 3 in the FPE. I also tried 6 but same result.
There are some inconsistencies in various post around these forums as to what exactly we should be using for this."


I have posted in AE's thread about transparency, is this the inconsistency you mention?

Transparency works if either like you say do it as a separate model or the way I do it is make it a separate group within the x file I do this in either UUW3d or fragmotion and set it to 6 in fpe
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 09:46
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Quote: "Transparency works if either like you say do it as a separate model or the way I do it is make it a separate group within the x file I do this in either UUW3d or fragmotion and set it to 6 in fpe"


In Blender you can do this fairly easy. In Blender the groups are called objects, last thing you do, after Unwrapping, and texturing (you do it last simply because it's easier to get the UV on one texture if everything is the same group), and before exporting highlight the faces of the glass, then press the P button and select the top option (i forget the exact wording, something about separating selected etc.), this makes those faces a separate object, then when exporting make sure you highlight the main object, then shift click the new object so you have both objects highlighted and then export.

If i remember right it's because of the way the transparency layering works in gameguru, it layers objects in order, and the transparent part has to be the last part to avoid it occluding or being occluded by other objects or something like that.
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 11:23
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transparency in single x file - https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/219752#msg2601513
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Posted: 12th Jun 2018 15:55
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Quote: "Press P to separate them in edit mode (click selection option in the menu which opens).
Tab to Object mode and right click the flat faces part of the model and click flat shading in the left tools pane.
Now right click the part of the model you want smooth and click smooth shading.
Select both parts of the model (A x 2) then ctrl + J to join them back together."


You can get the same effect by smooth shading everything, then selecting the faces and pressing Y to separate them from the main mesh, which is what the edge split modifier is supposed to do without all the clicking
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Posted: 20th Jun 2018 16:32 Edited at: 20th Jun 2018 16:32
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Quote: "A question for the community, do you want to see work done on smoothing groups to the existing DLC assets rather than more PBR texture sets being created? We can't do everything at once, but we can prioritize what gets done first and will always aim to do updates that the majority can enjoy."


It's best to avoid updating old asset textures without updating the models as well. It puts a very negative light on the PBR advancement when screenshots like this are presented to showcase "improvements"...



Adding PBR was a great step in the right direction for GG but it is very much a "garbage in = garbage out" sort of affair. Especially at this middling stage where adjustments to the system are still being made. Showcasing poor media, no matter how well intentioned, doesn't help the cause.
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Posted: 20th Jun 2018 17:07
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Hey don't knock them …
I want some factory Bouncy Castles
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Posted: 20th Jun 2018 21:43
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Quote: "I want some factory Bouncy Castles "

it really does look like an inflatable factory
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 14:27
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My point exactly it is a FIASCO.
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 14:31 Edited at: 21st Jun 2018 14:31
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Quote: "FIASCO"


Fart Inside A Silly Corrugated Object. Hmmmm I wondered why they looked blown up
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 19:51 Edited at: 21st Jun 2018 19:52
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why do similar entities of mine looks fine when i put them in the editor.?

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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 21:19 Edited at: 21st Jun 2018 21:53
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I think they exaggerated the shine for the pic … Perhaps a little to much.
Or your viewing from a different angle going by the shadows ?
Still kind of Bloaty though ..
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 21:53 Edited at: 21st Jun 2018 22:28
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The model looking like that is primarily a model issue as stab says, the smof thing groups are missing.

But as to it displaying differently for some people .....

I think that might be a hardware issue, I've noticed they appear fine on both my desktops, but on my laptop they display the same as that picture.
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