Please don't shoot me down on this as it is just an observation.

There has not been an update release for a good few months now and I think I can see the results of this in the forums and on steam. There are often days when hardly any, or in fact any new comments appear on the forums. Now this may be just the time of year or something is happening in the world that I have missed but I personally feel there is a good chance of a waning interest in GG.

Now I know this is a major upgrade but let's be honest it is just to bring it to where it should have already been. I know it is best to wait until it is well tested ETC but at the end of the day if the punters drift away through lack of stimulated interest then GG runs the risk of being just a club for enthusiasts.

Just saying.

The latest build needs a lot of work. (doesn't even work with my game). Trust me its not something you'd want out without being fully tested. Hopefully the show stopper bugs can be fixed and we do get something out sometime this month. Think TGC's aim is before Christmas.

I guess a lot of people will be happy with the update. Maybe not all (like always) but a lot.

Perhaps a few more update news items may help. There are some I know but there are also quite a few times when the silence is deafening.

I know writing news items takes time away from coding but it's all a matter of balance. I'm not getting at anyone here just saying.

There are other ways as well to keep up the interest on the product. I think giving free models away is one of them which is the reason I run a free model thread and try to get at least one new model up a week. None of us are going to 'clean up' with GG (although maybe one day some one may produce an Indy game that clicks ) but for many of us GG is an enjoyable pastime be it making models, sounds, scripting, game and level creation ETC.

Actually whilst this update has been in progress and knowing its a long haul I have been sorting other things I have neglected like Decorating, Car issues and doing some things on the retro scene which I like to keep my hand in but this is mainly because I want to wait before progressing with anything but certainly "Not" losing interest

Although i'm quite curious and hungry for the update, i'm also quite content with this period of beta testing and bug fixing.
In my view this is a make or break moment for Game Guru because a decent update will really elevate the overall sentiment in a positive way.
So even if it means it will take until Februari to have it thorougly tested and working properly, this should not be a problem for such a large overhaul of the engine and update.

OK I never mentioned the length of time regarding the update just that occasional news helps stimulate interest. Make or break? Maybe but it seems to me there have been other updates that have carried this flag and the phrase always seems a bit of an ultimatum.

The problem is it's not really about us diehards who will probably be here no matter what (within reason as I remember purchasing FPSC X10 to then find out it was no longer supported). It's about maintaining the interest of the thousands of customers and potential customers who have no loyalty to the product but just want something to 'do the job'.

I think you did.



However I wouldn't worry .. Many have left only to return.
News travels fast and even if it goes quiet now word will soon get around when the updates released

Yes, I certainly haven't lost interest, working on other projects and preparing for a new baby in February as well as looking for new contract etc, so sometimes real life kicks in and I don't always have time to do GameGuru type things amongst other stuff that needs doing. Looking forward to the next major update but am happy to wait.

I think the community is still reasonably active. We even have several new work in progress threads now.

However, there is an undeniable drop off in activity which is not characteristic for this time'a'year. I'm not the biggest fan of the "this isn't worth my time 'till the update hits" crowd but a lot of people seem to have this mentality.

And no, I also think Lee should take his time to perfect the update rather to release any filler content in between.



-Wolf

Right now I'm more excited about community supported endeavors. Lee's work will be good core engine stuff but he's too much into dropping big updates vs small incremental and focused point releases (I've said my piece on this before). So *shrug*. We'll get our fancy graphics and dx11 later. For now I'm most interested in BOTR's terrain importer and my own project(s). I have a few weather system updates to make and will also be making another system (much cheaper and general purpose) for this engine. Both will need likely severe overhaul after the update comes so I'm not in a rush to get it!

That said there's a lot of micro-patches that I'd have loved to have seen here but as with all developers, we're subject to their workflow. Some developers (like myself) do a very structured series of updates with regular backups and forks to keep things easily separated. Others just kind of go as they go - and Lee is that type. He just loads it up as he goes. In his mind he's got 'his fix' the DX11 update and all it's associated goodies - but then he's also got the community fixes like removing the sun from static light baking. Those are secondary to the main update for him. So we wait.

Now time to dust off my very ancient terrain generation algorithms (circa 2002!) and start looking at how to get it to make what I want it to make.

I think synchromesh you know what I meant when I said I didn't mention the length of time regarding updates. I know updates can take a long time but the gist of my argument was referring to keeping people 'interested'.

And guys I gotta say all the comments here about how happy you all are regarding the other things you will do whilst waiting for any movement are coming from the usual hard core of users. I think we need to take on board what the other several thousand that purchased GG are thinking.

Now I will come clean and say I have no great interest in GG for making games. It's simply not my forte. I do not have those skills. So if the update comes in 2 weeks, 2 months or two years I personally don't see that as a problem. My pleasure comes from making models. It's a hobby. That's another reason why I give so much away. But moving away from the hard core GG users and supporters, which I would hazard a guess is reasonably small judging by the number of contributors on the forums, I still think my original argument above about keeping the punters interested holds.

Anyway I have no interest in arguing with anyone and only offered the original post as an observation in the hope that it may be useful.

Ah no offense taken! You raised excellent points and I will say flat out you AREN'T WRONG. New users are what this system needs, and that update will probably bring them.

This group here though, this crusty bunch of grognards is used to waiting.

From what Lee has been posting on the internal update thread it looks like he's made tremendous progress. I believe the DX11 update will be the step forward that everyone has been waiting for. In turn it could be a positive turning point for GG and TGC.

Because graphics are always so important <-- I'm being sarcastic. It will attract new users and revitalize the community.

I've been lurking around these forums for a few months now and maybe only interacted with one or two threads and what I've witnessed is quite a drop in activity. Let's hope this turns around during the holidays and with the new update.

I will wait, there is no other option for me.
I will wait as long as it takes.

What do you do after building a medieval city with 8k entities on it and while waiting for the new update? BUILD A BIGGER ONE!!!!!! lol

During this long wait I have actually decided to pick up on LUA. Its the best part about my GG experience now. I find it very exciting when I get good results out of something I have scripted from scratch. Even started re-writing the AI of the enemies.

Though I will say, it be good to have this update before next year

how you count your entities?
I think I have overseen it, don't know where ...

Just hover over them when nothing is selected and it gives you the number at the bottom of the screen

Ah, ok... there're 2 numbers. I guess the first one is the right one.
Ok, 750 is still ok. 8k... that's really impressive

I would be one of that crowd and don't understand the comment when the Emperor and CEO of the company himself always suggests doing something else for 6 months or whatever and come back later. Why would folks hang around twiddling their thumbs for no reason other than to avoid being thrown into a 'crowd' that displeases others around here.
Not that I really care what others think of my 'hiatus' from this product anyway, I may or may not come back to it when it suits me and no one else.

The OP is absolutely spot on and this product has lost some of its existing and potential users due to a lack of update progress outside of the forums, simply look at the TGC 'news' page which is all AGK and My World and sparse news items on GameGuru to get the point and why you won't be seeing many new users this Christmas season, old users who do take the advice and move on for a while are less likely to have anything to post around here or even return to it whatever updates it gets after the fact, since they aren't wasting their time merely playing around with other engines and hanging around here waiting for GG to come up to scratch.

This pretty much sums it up IMO.

Hopefully the update has a noticeable effect on visuals out of the box for new users or this update could end up being a disaster in its own right, what's the point in GG coming with a whole bunch of objects and dlc packs if they don't look right anymore?
Don't forget this product is aimed at inexperienced users who will want those fancy graphics to work by default (and a lot of the stock assets look quite dated now).

What with PBR and hopefully soon new dynamic lighting which can cast shadows, and ability to swtich off the sun. DX11 will certainly also increase speed of the engine too. Im plodding on with Lua and some music stuff im doing, and i'm cetainly awaiting the 1st stable release.

All power to Lee for taking time to get it right. This is a fairly big update so it's no wonder it is taking time.

I haven't been using GG of late apart from testing it. After having a couple of projects I spent a lot of time on break (last update) I can't get myself motivated to start another or to remake the ones I started. I don't blame GG for this really, all engines can break a project with updates. I'm happy to wait. I may get inspired while doing so.

Personally I think the beta is coming along nicely.

I've been keeping busy with an old online game in the meantime Graphics are not great by today's standards (wasn't great even at the time really) but I always found it fun, if possibly too addictive ;p

Oh things are quiet though, I agree. I check for updates every few days or so (I've tempered my daily checks now lol). I can understand the urge for news, but if you try to take a few days off from checking, the wait goes quicker

Waaaaaaaaaay to addictive, help me DVader, yo're my only hope

I'm looking forward to the DX 11 update purly for the speed. Although i do like 3d graphics i prefer stabuilty and content lol @ you two hooked!!!!! you have to be careful its a big Galaxy

The farce is strong in this one

Average joe is going to have a tough time with PBR, unless you have a couple of Hundred $$$ to spend on a suite capable of outputting necessary maps.
You can however do it quite cheaply with just gimp, it's less then ideal, but I found in most instances provides better roughness and metalness, and AO's then my software suites.

PBR is a much different beast compared to the regular shaders we are accustom to While relatively easy and straightforward, maps do need to be 100% perfect or your whole rendering pipeline will be one big mess.

I'd hope when several, more senior members of community raise the alert signal that things need to be more functional that it'd get some attention. Alas, I worry that over the many years Lee has kind of started to tune that out. Unfortunately constant criticism (warranted though it may be) generally tends to get tuned out by the people receiving it. It's just a natural product of our daily filtering mechanism (aka the Critical Factor) that let us get through a day without worrying about non-issues. A sort of erroneous bit of filtering on our parts as humans. Then we go off after the shiny object (PBR both literally and figuratively).

I know for me, if you had to ask me what the most important part of the coming update is, it's not PBR. It's not even the sun fix, though that's massively useful for me and my aspirations for indoor space levels.

It's that freaking load time reduction.

It's a sad fact that too few games of actual substance make it to the phase where they've been compiled to see how excruciatingly long it takes to load a map. I mean 15 minutes+ long for what I'd consider a moderate map.

example:


This was NOT a highly complex map. I mean it took several weeks to make, sure, but from a gamedev standpoint it was fairly banal. But the load time on it was unbelievably long to the point where it was virtually impossible to play - let alone test.

I'm really hoping feature creep chills out long enough for Lee to stabilize and deploy this update so I can have something that loads faster, with a better sun, and heck if people can use PBR and DX11 that's just dandy too. But really at the end of the day what I care about is the same as pretty much everyone else in this thread. CORE ENGINE FUNCTION.

I have to agree about load times, I gave up playing Wolf's game because I got killed too easily and then had to wait ages for it to load again, unfortunately this engine seems to be more about prettiness than functionality, make it look good rather than make it work properly.

True to a point though with respect to the load time issues via communication I've had with Lee and his own postings here he claims vastly improved load times with respect to major drivers like the AI pathing so *fingers crossed* here's to hoping it actually helps on that front.

Its true that GG usage has dropped off. Its at its lowest user point ever since launch:
http://steamcharts.com/app/266310#All

Recoverable only if something happens during this month. At work I always make sure to meet expected peaks. I don't even think a release of a new version has to occur. But something does. whatever that something Is.

That's not unusual though IMHO .. its not like its a online game ... Still so much higher than the other engines on steam though ...
Try typing ..

Leadwerks
CopperCube
S2 Engine HD

Also many of us ( Including me ) have learnt we can use GG via a desktop shortcut avoiding steam altogether ..

Yep. How many times have we rebuilt the engine now? Yet still core stuff remains the same, I am looking forward to PBR, but.......... I still can't fly a spaceship or drive a car, and as said, load times for exe's - well..........

Reliquia.....

@Bod and Rolfy: I sense a certain hostility towards that comment I made. It was nothing but a subjective statement of opinion.

I know that making a game, be it in GG or elsewhere, is a big project and prefer a proactive attitude towards that. If the software I work in is currently not up to speed with my plans, as it was for a long time of me using it, I was making and converting media or write down my GDD. I've found out that a lot of things I chalked up to the software failing was actually doable if approached differently and wrote posts about that. So when that big hypothetical update hits (or if) I got all that sitting here and can simply enjoy myself throwing the maps together without worrying about the "heavy lifting". I don't demand anyone else to invest that kind of time and work into a silly game project, I just like to see that attitude in other users. You clearly have a different opinion and I fully respect that.

Now you both mentioned crowd with quote marks. What I meant was "group of people that have something in common". If crowd also has a negative connotation I was not aware of it.



Well, I certainly don't wish to steer other peoples behavior. Again, I have simply uttered an opinion. I feel that this whole software lives from its community and its sad to see it die down in between updates like this, is all. "I am not the biggest fan of" and "it displeases me" also have a different intensity. I am not the biggest fan of Seinfeld. The decrepit state of a french nuclear reactor very near me displeases me.



-Wolf

All posters.

Please accept that I started this thread as a mark of my concern for the product. It was about and I think should remain an objective thread. This is not about any individual and no one should either take or give offence to any other person in this community. I, like others probably, remember the very early days of being an FPSC EA and not daring to comment on the forums for fear of being attacked and sometimes quite insulted by a few individuals.

So back to my original point. Updates take a long while, especially this one. That is dictated by two main factors being the required amount of work (coding ETC) and the available staff. That's me stating the bleeding obvious. I may be wrong but I believe the staff consists of in the main one guy who also has the task of being CEO of the company with the plethora of tasks that brings. OK that's fine.

But the punters (customers and potential customers) need regular feeding to maintain their interest. It seems to me the community represented here does this through ideas, freebies, encouragement ETC throughout these forums but that is not enough. That community support is second to none.

So please Lee include us more regularly with titbits of info. Give us a sense of ownership in the product again.

Na - build a space station! lol







TBH I probably don't have time for the update yet anyway, so much to do on this yet - lol

Reliquia....

lol nice

So maybe it's because I'm a loudmouthed American on a forum of primarily European users, but I don't see any shouting or anger. Heck, you guys haven't even risen to the level of 'typical American family dinner' as far as I am concerned. Near as I can tell, Ken, this is just a good old fashioned debate. Sometimes a little heated, but fairly tame by my standards. So you have nothing to apologize for.

Moreover, sometimes things need to be said for better or for worse. You're not wrong - people need to feel engaged with the product creators so they can keep their desire and motivations up. We're all pretty simple creatures here. This has always been an issue with Lee, so far as I can tell. He has his own desires and motivations; he suffers burnout like the rest of us. His workflow as a result, can be a bit much to deal with. He should really consider picking up a community manager whom he could give some tidbits to who then could write up regular updates for him. I try to do that with my blog but it's a lot of work I don't have time for myself.

I love the level Reliquia. Looks really solid in terms of design. Is the planet a model or part of the sky?

From my standpoint, I'm working on a new scripting control kit specifically aimed around the existing dynamic light system.
Expect that coming soon at a pretty low price point (like $3). Guess it helps we all try to keep busy

Hi all
I agree, threads like this are just debates. I never say anything that is intended to be an attack on anyone, just saying what is on my mind is all

BAG the planet is a skybox I whipped up for the level which is meant to be a planet mapping\resesrch station, but this one is a model





It is meant to be a data streaming device that collects date from the planet and maps it to a 3D projection. It slowly rotates - it is the first time I have got a seamless rotating model working properly (yay!)

Please ignore the ceilings and walls , haven't started the texture work on them yet, only been working on the basic models layout and floor textures.

I am probably high-jacking the thread now apologies grobyken

I have been going to start a WIP for the game but I doubt I will ever get the game completed so have been holding off.... I don't class myself as a modeller or an artist - just a hobbyist!

Reliquia....