Product Chat / I saw that if you edit the Shaders you can get a very high level graphics. How do you do that???

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stor
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 08:06
I would love to have an example if possible short video on edit Shaders for GG
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Belidos
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 08:24
Quote: " I saw that if you edit the Shaders you can get a very high level graphics. How do you do that???"


Get six degrees in various aspects of computer languages :p

Seriously though, i doubt anyone would do a video on that, it's a huge subject, and a whole language in itself, not something that can easily be portrayed on a video. I am interested in learning myself though.

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Emrys
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 09:59
Belidos is correct !

I've played with the shaders before and you can break things very quickly. If you're really interested in shader programing there's tons information on the net but good luck it's a very in-depth subject
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Mouaa
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 10:22 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 08:57
You can find the main shader Entity_basic.fx in

steamapps\common\Game Guru\Files\effectbank\reloaded

Good luck.
stor
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 12:05
Maybe it's a stupid question : Is it possible to change a Shader for each model separately to reach a higher level of quality?
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Mouaa
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 12:40 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 08:54
You can, each entity uses FPE file definition, it contains what shader the 3D model will use :


effect = effectbank\reloaded\entity_basic.fx


Good luck if you wish to change shaders without good shaders experience work lol
cybernescence
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 12:42
If you don't have a coding background it will be a long haul for you except for simple changes.

With a lot of coding experience you will stand a much better chance but even then an understanding of how shaders work in the rendering pipeline and the hlsl language itself will take a while to acquire to do anything along the lines of what Lee and Preben can do. I started 6 months ago, read books on this and have spent dozens of hours trial and error with the GG shaders and just about understand enough of what is going on to tweak and port other stuff to the shaders. You may be much faster at this than me

You can assign a different shader per entity via the fpe. For instance I have shaders that only apply a 'low' settIng irrespective of the engine 'tab tab' entity level and one that always applies a 'high' approach. I did this to optimise at a more granular level than the tab tab settings allow.

So you could in theory create a shader that applies ultra settIngs but deriving the code for that quickly will take a lot of skill and experience. Porting something will be faster if you can get permission for it and make it fit with the GG engine - dx9 and shader model 3.

Cheers.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 14:10
I will also be working on core graphics improvements in 2017 so another option is to make a cup of tea, sit back and wait for Lee to bring more updates. This time though, I will be looking to get active help from the community to save time and bring things forward sooner!
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Bolt Action Gaming
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 14:14
Many hands makes for light work, so they say. Any chance of a news/dev plan soon Lee?
Also for the OP:
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/tutorials/a-beginners-guide-to-coding-graphics-shaders--cms-23313
stor
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 16:23
I program in multiple languages but not in lua language. the fx file written in lua language ???
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 16:26
hlsl is the format the shaders are written to.
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Belidos
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 16:29 Edited at: 11th Jan 2017 16:34
They're not coded in LUA no, the FX shaders are their own assembly languages, i'm not sure which we use, but i would assume as it's directX based it would be something like DirectX SAL, or DirectX HLSL.

I've a feeling it's HLSL (i'm sure ive seen it mentioned somewhere), here's a link to microsofts HLSL documentation:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb509635.aspx

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stor
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 17:58
Thank you all for your patience because I really do not understand deeply. I ask because I see many amazing examples of oceans and water shader and want to know how to adapt it to GG. for example :
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/nativeconcurrency/2011/11/10/ocean-simulation-sample-in-c-amp/
http://habib.wikidot.com/projected-grid-ocean
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 18:06 Edited at: 11th Jan 2017 18:10
HLSL for GG. Complex stuff, maybe make a copy an effect file and try altering values. Not for the faint hearted DarkShader if you can get hold of a copy might help.

DVader did a video on water shader effect and changing colors :

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/215501#msg2549496
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Mouaa
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 19:14 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 08:55
Quote: "DVader did a video on water shader effect and changing colors :

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/215501#msg2549496"


Why better shaders, better scripts are not replacing GG ones when there is a new release ?
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 19:36
Then they are missing out.

Does not take a lot of effort to search thru the forums or read the info in the docs folder or even edit a shader file a bit to highlight what you want. If you don't have the desire to strive for better visuals and graphics you wont get them till they are released in an update.

If you don't have the desire to adjust the sliders in the matrices to achieve better results you will not get them.

If you don't have the desire to open a script and do simple changes then your end results will look like everyone else's.

What you put in is what you get out of it. Same as in any other engine. Bad media in, bad results out. does not matter if it has the most advanced renderer in the world if this is how you will approach game development.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 19:36
I don't use default gg shaders I now use Preben updated Shaders but you need to have daily3d.com account , the shaders are much improved
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Mouaa
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Posted: 11th Jan 2017 23:50 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 08:56
Quote: "Does not take a lot of effort to search thru the forums or read the info in the docs folder or even edit a shader file a bit to highlight what you want. If you don't have the desire to strive for better visuals and graphics you wont get them till they are released in an update."


I know.About what should provide a 3D engine , here is my point of view with a car example.

You made the GuruCar and start to sell it lol
Only 10% are experienced buyers will be able replace pieces seeking on garage stocks, and finally get a car looking lot better and running faster.
But on streets people will see mostly the GuruCar from the 90% average drivers, people will think GuruCar doesn't look so good and is not so fast, so they won't be very attracted to consider buying it.

This is the win win situation, if you give the best options and best car possible to the 90% average users, because this is mainly what will see new buyers.
Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 04:06
Mouaa, why do you insist on trolling these forums? If you hate this engine so much, go use another. Game Guru is not going to change just to suit you.
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Belidos
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 05:42
Your logic is flawed there, by your reckoning that 90% would never buy other game engines either, because almost none of them come with more than a few models for free at all, gameguru comes with hundreds of free models.

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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 06:10
@Mouaa, Okay if you want to compare the GuruCar and UnrealCar then I shall apply your logic to the scenario.

If you want better shaders. Learn to MAKE better ones yourself or PAY someone to make shaders which suit you needs. If you want better 3d models then MAKE them yourself or PAY someone to make better models for you.

Do you think people driving their UnrealCars didn't spend money or dedicate their own resources into getting the parts that they need? The parts aren't free.
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stor
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 07:25
GuruCar??? What is GuruCar? Something tells me I'd love to find out what it is.
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Preben
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 07:37
Im driving a BeatleGuruCar , easy to maintain , dont drive to fast but always get to the destination
best regards Preben Eriksen,
stor
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 08:18
OK, but what is it and how to do it?
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 09:58
@Belidos : Hundreds and hundreds in fact! I think I should probably stop at 5GB+ of free game making assets though, I might embarrass the other engines out there
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Teabone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 10:29 Edited at: 12th Jan 2017 11:00
I've been poking around with shaders lately. Not an easy task though. But it really doesn't hurt to copy a shader and just play around with its code to see what results you can get out of it.



I still own DarkShader which was a pretty useful tool for creating shaders for FPSC Creator. But not all the results actually work in Game Guru. So your best bet is to just play around with the codes.

Though since your talking about "better graphics" with better shaders, I think what should be noted is how important the normal and spec maps are. If you fast forward to bond1's tutorial (to 6:32) where he talks about photoshop; You can see what advantages their are to making good detailed normal and spec maps:



My 3D Models looked terrible years ago. After creating these additional supporting textures... it really helps brings more detail, depth and realism to your objects. This is a very often over-looked process of creating assets for Game Guru.

The default shaders that GG has are actually not that bad. I know I like to use this example often but it shows how just a simple 3D object that is pretty much just a cube... can have way more detail if attention is focused on the bump maps and spec maps.

Click on the image below to see the difference:
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SpaceWurm
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 11:45
Quote: " Im driving a BeatleGuruCar , easy to maintain , dont drive to fast but always get to the destination "


LOL! My GuruCar has been in the workshop for quite a while... the motor is getting an overhaul and the mechanics don't know when it will be done. But that's fine, I'm looking forward to driving it in the future.
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Belidos
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 12:02 Edited at: 12th Jan 2017 12:06
Quote: " Click on the image below to see the difference: "


To be honest, both textures look great, but for me personally the first one is the better one, it's more "natural" to me, the second one looks like it's been too near the fire and the paints bubbled. Another thing people don't really account for is the way people perceive models, everybody has different preferences to how they think things should look, so you could make the best model in the world, and texture it to a AAA degree, and still people might not like it.

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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 12:11
I also prefer the first one I think the second one is slightly overdone, don't get me wrong they are both amazing the main thing that I see that lets a lot of the models down is the actual contact with the floor or terrain its too 'neat' for more realism I think a bit of blur or blending between the contact points would be good but that is just my opinion.
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Mouaa
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 13:12 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 08:43
Quote: "Mouaa, why do you insist on trolling these forums? If you hate this engine so much, go use another. Game Guru is not going to change just to suit you.
"


It will need changes , any software gets changes (and If you want better reviews).



Quote: "I've been poking around with shaders lately. Not an easy task though. But it really doesn't hurt to copy a shader and just play around with its code to see what results you can get out of it."

I prefer more realistic shaders like this

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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 14:07 Edited at: 12th Jan 2017 14:09
Quote: " water should stay immobile"


Science kind of disagrees with you there, due to it's fluid state all water is in a perpetual state of movement, you won't always see it until you look close, but it is always moving, which is another mistake a lot of people make when putting water in games, you need to have movement in water, granted the movement in the example above is was more than it should be, but you should always put a tiny bit of movement in water, even if you can't see it without examining it closely it will make a world of difference on the subconscious level.

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Teabone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2017 19:05 Edited at: 12th Jan 2017 19:41
Quote: "I say what i think, and you shader looks bad used like that on the street, the wave movement is disturbing as water should stay immobile , it would need more work and use of alpha mask to get better shape than a rounded polygon."


The video is of the first time I tested using a secondary reflective image in GG. To show that shaders are editable. Its not suppose to look realistic or anything like that. I have a whole thread about that progress. So forget the animated features on top, its used as stepping stone towards using a screenshot of a scene as a reflect-able surface.



Its all about playing with the shaders till you get the results you like. Then you can create whatever mesh with alphas you feel reflect your environmental design. In all of the tests I've done I've just used existing meshes from FPSC scaled. Once I get the desired results I'll work on new meshes. Its all experimentation is my point. Game Guru doesn't allow all past FPSC shaders features to work so we are currently in a time where we do have to play around with the code on our own and modify existing ones.

On top of all the shader testing, there is still the investigation to see if the water material index will work for bullet/impact debris decals and sound effects for those impacts and for if the player walks on it.

I should also mention my very first test was originally about creating multiple lake plains about different heights. A test of that and reflections in general. Keep in mind GG is a sandbox of testing on the users part... what we present in the forums never reflects any final product.

I have been considering adding working shaders to the free assets respiratory:

http://www.freetoronto.org/gameguru/
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 01:24
Quote: "And you lack a bit of perception or intelligence to understand that i don't hate GG and the example was a gentle marketing advice, take it or leave it."


Actually, I'm quite perceptive, and VERY intelligent, thank you. I have read many of your posts, and for the most part, they are insulting to both users and to the product itself. These forums are based on constructive criticism. This is why people enjoy these forums over others that they have experienced. Game Guru is a work in progress, and has been for a little over three years. It is being written by one guy. One guy, who, by the way, has entertained most of us over the years with some fantastic software. It should be obvious that one man vs. rapid advances in technology will slow things down. Dramatically. Insults aside, everything that you have offered has already been discussed, time and time again since Reloaded's inception. We voted for a complete rewrite (from scratch) of a program that was already pretty powerful (there's a nearby thread here showcasing some things users are doing) and yet a decade old. I don't care what you know about game making, game engines, or GuruCars (whatever they are). You claim you say what you feel. Fine, so do I. If you are truly a "hobbyist", as am I, then you you will be patient with this software as are most of the rest of us and participate, as opposed to slinging the insults toward the product and to other users who are here to just have fun with an easy to use (for the most part) tool. If you want it, and you want it now, then there will be sacrifices (e.g. writing your own scripts, optimizing your meshes, perhaps even customizing your shaders). I challenge you to take UE4, Unity, Coppercube, Torque3D, S2, BlitzBasic, etc. and do absolutely no extra work or spend any extra money to make a decent, custom level.
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granada
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 01:38 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 01:43
Quote: "I have read many of your posts, and for the most part, they are insulting to both users and to the product itself. These forums are based on constructive criticism"


Have to agree,I have wanted to post.and deleted due to what I was going to post to some of your posts

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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 01:51
Quote: "Have to agree,I have wanted to post.and deleted due to what I was going to post to some of your posts
"


Thanks for the support! I wasn't sure that what I said was out of line or not.
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Teabone
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 03:53 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 04:09
Quote: "Have to agree,I have wanted to post.and deleted due to what I was going to post to some of your posts"


I'd be lying if I said i didnt do the the same earlier in this thread.
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Mouaa
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 07:41 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 09:28
Quote: " I challenge you to take UE4, Unity, Coppercube, Torque3D, S2, BlitzBasic, etc. and do absolutely no extra work or spend any extra money to make a decent, custom level. "

I am already using some of these tools and some open source, some games are already sold, and there is also lot of game templates in some engines if your wish is just to mod and tweak gameplay to make a new game.
If you target custom effects or custom gameplay indeed you'll have to put some more work or some money to buy them, but let's be serious what good 3D engine doesn't have particle system actually ?

Lee was asking tips about bad reviews, so i talked about lot of solutions, about navmesh for AI, real particle system, the poor workflow for people to bring their own models that would need work to have more exterior 3D artists involved with GG or to sell models, the shader that needs some work , or the performance that is not great.
This is Lee software not mine, i hope he will be clever enought to bring more regular updates and bring some good changes to GG, instead of feeling attacked and take them as good indicators and friendly advices instead.
I wish he will get even more success with GG and new releases he will make.

I talked perhaps too much about some things that are not great in GG, i will not worry you more with these LOL
(It's like any community, you come to Unity talking some UE4 features and all fanboys feels attacked and thread gets closed LOL)

Have a good day.
Belidos
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 09:09
Quote: "I talked perhaps too much about some things that are not great in GG, i will not worry you more with these LOL"


It wasn't just that, it's also that you seemed to jump on everybody's thread and try to turn it to your own agenda (we're all guilty of that to an extent though lol).

Plus the way you write comes across as very arrogant. I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but that's how it felt.

Don't worry too much, you're not the only one who's done that, i had a few people yelling at me for exactly the same things when i started on here, but now i stop and think carefully about what i post and usually avoid confrontation.

We're a sensitive bunch here, but we have some great characters, this is hands down one of the friendliest and most helpful communities i've been a part of, and i wouldn't trade them for anything, but sometimes someone comes along and lists all the faults that we know about and have discussed endlessly already, and they always seem as if their writing is filled with superiority, as if nobody else has noticed these things before, and we tend to snap after a while.

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Mouaa
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 09:25
Quote: "It wasn't just that, it's also that you seemed to jump on everybody's thread and try to turn it to your own agenda (we're all guilty of that to an extent though lol).
Plus the way you write comes across as very arrogant. I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but that's how it felt."

I discovered some things recently about how to make models to work with AI navigation or how to get better specular effect, so i was wrong to point things out some times. As new comer, some things i discovered i found not great was also frustrating, but i should have just say it once than drop it. You are right, i dind't feel so much arrogant or superior but i was, and i also don't like that behaviour.

Like someone said, here the community is more humble and friendly, change a big the 3D engine but don't change guys, stay like that lol
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 11:58 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 13:07
At the end of the day, we're all here for the same reason, to make games

As said above best community ever
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Ertlov
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 13:06
Despite all other points argued about - you CAN achieve far better visuals and more performance by simply swapping the shaders GG comes with against something more powerful, or rewrite the existing ones.

Turning off all GG postprocessing and swapping in a VERY effect-loaded version of mastereffects made my testlevels 10 - 30 % faster and seemingly 5 years fresher in terms of visual look. So the headline of the thread is technically very much valid. However, I am pretty sure Lee will improve / excahnge here, too.
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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
24
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Joined: 21st Jan 2000
Location: England
Posted: 13th Jan 2017 14:13
I have some small shader fixes on the way in the next update, but will be looking at increasing base engine visuals during 2017, on several fronts! I can go into more details in February but expect some small improvements for the next GameGuru update together with the Easy Building Editor (V1.14) and the return of some kind of dev blog to show work that will be done on the visual side. I am intent however that any visual work does not get in the way of core functionality work!
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3com
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Joined: 18th May 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posted: 13th Jan 2017 14:34
Quote: "I have some small shader fixes on the way in the next update, but will be looking at increasing base engine visuals during 2017, on several fronts! I can go into more details in February but expect some small improvements for the next GameGuru update together with the Easy Building Editor (V1.14) and the return of some kind of dev blog to show work that will be done on the visual side. I am intent however that any visual work does not get in the way of core functionality work!"

Nice one mr Bamber.
That's the way; respond to bad reviews, with improvements and more features.

3com
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PM
Ertlov
GameGuru BOTB Developer
17
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Joined: 18th Jan 2007
Location: Australia
Posted: 13th Jan 2017 14:58
Quote: "I have some small shader fixes on the way in the next update, but will be looking at increasing base engine visuals during 2017, on several fronts! I can go into more details in February but expect some small improvements for the next GameGuru update together with the Easy Building Editor (V1.14) and the return of some kind of dev blog to show work that will be done on the visual side. I am intent however that any visual work does not get in the way of core functionality work!"


Fair enough, most of us can boost the optics on our own in the meantime. And you know we are already drooling every time you mention the next version, right? Not su much because of EBE, but more because of the AI work afterwards ^^
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Wolf
Forum Support
16
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Joined: 8th Nov 2007
Location: Luxemburg
Posted: 14th Jan 2017 14:33
Quote: "I have some small shader fixes on the way in the next update, but will be looking at increasing base engine visuals during 2017, on several fronts!"



@Mouaa
Quote: "I talked perhaps too much about some things that are not great in GG, i will not worry you more with these LOL"


As you once told me: You don't get the point.
We aren't fanboys as much as "over this already". You seem to think that you are telling us things that we don't already know and that it is now your "mission" to point out what features are crucially missing. First this is kind of insulting because a lot of us have a strong background in game design and we know. Second of all: We all said the same things you are constantly repeating on these forums 2 years ago.

PBR, Dynamic lighting, Shaders... all this has already been discussed over and over again. We know, Lee knows, everybody knows. It takes time to get there and implement it...Lee is only human and only single one of them puny humans.

Quote: "I am already using some of these tools and some open source, some games are already sold"


Links or pics?



-Wolf
Mouaa
User Banned
Posted: 14th Jan 2017 14:54 Edited at: 14th Jan 2017 15:25
Quote: "PBR, Dynamic lighting, Shaders... all this has already been discussed over and over again"

I didn't point PRB in game Guru instead some global lighting using reflection probes for better real time lighting, something more simple and materials could benefit from that.
We would need a shader guru lol

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