Product Chat / Creating cloud formations in GameGuru using material layers.

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rolfy
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 06:15 Edited at: 4th Mar 2016 06:24
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As is my way when I discover something new I can do in GameGuru I post it here.

Although I have always thought that skyscroll was as good as it would get in GG I never felt it looked natural enough with clouds all moving in one direction, in my experience clouds merge,swell and shrink into each other depending on altitude,wind,turbulence etc.

This uses three material layers on a single entity which is three dome meshes occupying exactly the same space, they are collapsed to a single mesh before export. Provided this is done right you get no Z clashing at all, z clashing is the result of two faces overlapping too closely to each other, I discovered when they share the exact space it doesn't happen. You cant get away with a fraction no matter how small. It uses a single scroll shader and varied uv mapping to move in different directions.

The effect is pretty subtle but that is how it should be, in games you want natural as possible without distracting

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Fendrik
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 08:22
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Very nice ... how did you find out about all of this ?

cheers,
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TazMan
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 09:53
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Realy realy nice Rolfy, I was wondering how to do this a few months ago but then got distracted, I am glad someone with your experience has had a go at it. Are they going in the Shop. ??
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Defy
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 10:11
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Very nice rolfy, shows the artist in you and Game Guru is your canvas. Well done !
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DVader
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 17:10
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Looks a lot better than the normal scrolling plane effect


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synchromesh
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 17:53
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As usual making GG do things it normally wouldn't ..
Brilliant work once again ..
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shivers
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 21:33
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hello
This is very good as always my question is . How come your not working with lee and adding your talent to game guru and advancing our journey so to speak. Why keep your talent to just you, your not making any games that i have seen seems to me that your talent could be used for that cause. It's just a suggestion do what you think is best but with your talent seems to me you could help get game guru up and running faster.
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rolfy
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Posted: 4th Mar 2016 22:26 Edited at: 5th Mar 2016 03:41
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Quote: "Why keep your talent to just you, your not making any games that i have seen seems to me that your talent could be used for that cause."
Hi Shivers, just like several other community members I have in my small way contributed to GameGuru whether in direct conversation with Lee and TGC or in revealing my findings to other Artists and game designers around here.

A great deal of my media and requests for code additions are in GameGuru already but maybe overlooked since they are unlikely to have my name on them. If I feel something would benefit users I usually have no problems contacting Lee to suggest it. It does all the same need to be acknowledged that a lot of what I do is 'out of the box' and workarounds are no substitute for actual functionality so sometimes I 'keep it to myself', mostly I am really free with my 'knowledge' and discoveries around here. So more of a community thing than 'directly involved' full time

Also take into account much of my store media which requires a lot of my time and hair pulling to think up and create, I sell at a really low price to users, so in fact if you think about it I already contribute a lot to GameGuru and the community.


Edit*
On the subject of the thread, it is just the first steps. If it goes the way I hope (improving the shader) and we see a better method for creating skies then I will be happy to pass it on to TGC to be implemented into GameGuru if they want it (maybe they have ideas of their own). But that's a little ways off for now, I got a few ideas to do it in different ways and will wait and see which one pans out. The video does show how much better it could look and that's all I wanted to show for now
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Posted: 5th Mar 2016 13:29
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@ Rolfy
Awesome as usually!

Does the clouds cover the sunlight (partially of course) ?

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science boy
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Posted: 5th Mar 2016 13:58
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fantastic skills again, p.s. love the dead reel video.
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Posted: 5th Mar 2016 14:05
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Brilliant as always!
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Posted: 5th Mar 2016 14:15
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Blimey looks fantastic !!
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Shadow man
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 01:58
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Quote: "Although I have always thought that skyscroll was as good as it would get in GG I never felt it looked natural enough with clouds all moving in one direction"


My thoughts exactly,.......so I came up with this "silly" idea that,...just maybe I could make an animated
decal with different cloud formations and directions on it that I could scale over the entire map up in the
sky,.....but alas,......it turns out that you can't scale a decal as big as that,....at least not with the widget.
Thank goodness some people on this forum have sensible ideas,....unlike me,...lol.



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rolfy
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 02:02 Edited at: 6th Mar 2016 02:19
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So far I have converted the default GameGuru skybox to a skydome, which for some situations may be suited better, particularly this method. In general I prefer a dome.
I reckon the animated clouds may work in the shader with a couple of scrolling uv layers . That will be the hard part for me and no guarantee it will work but we will see how it goes. Nice thing is this wont affect anything already in GG though it might need Lee's input to point to the shader. don't know for sure yet and will simply back up and use the sky_basic.fx shader as a starting point .

Skydome replacing the GG default skybox.



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Shadow man
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 02:19
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Quote: "In general I prefer a dome. "


What advantages does a dome have compared to a box.?
I'm not being funny or or anything, I'm just curious.
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rolfy
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 02:21 Edited at: 6th Mar 2016 02:24
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You don't get those corners you sometimes see if you use a high fog intensity nor do you get so much distortion when looking at sun or moon from an angle. It simply works better for 3d environments in a lot of cases.

If you want a proper day/night cycle this is how I would go with it as a starting point and already have thoughts on that for this.
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Teabone
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 02:51
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Very nicely done!
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Shadow man
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 02:54
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Yes,...those corners can be a bit of a problem sometimes,...especially with the fog,...
so I guess that is one reason domes have an advantage in that sense,...I did not think
about that.
I make my skyboxes in Vue 5 from about 10 years ago now,....still works well in win 7.
I don't know how to make sky domes in it though.

I'm not happy with the fog in GG,...I think we need a hight slider for it, because it dose
not fog the sky,....it just does not look right to me.

Anyway,..thanks for the answer sir,...I know more now than I did a few minuets ago,..
thank you.
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rolfy
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 09:25 Edited at: 6th Mar 2016 09:42
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Animated three cloud layers
Base layer to scroll the moon across the sky which often gets lost behind the clouds.
All built into the skydome, you select the sky as usual in test level.
Cloud formations are constantly changing and evolving.
Lightrays add that extra colour into the mix.

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smallg
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 09:39
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Very nice, I must admit I much prefer an animated sky to a static one, I know they take a lot more work but its definitely worth it.
And using a skydome is better indeed, those corners look odd even without fog
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Fendrik
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 13:43
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Quote: "Animated three cloud layers
Base layer to scroll the moon across the sky which often gets lost behind the clouds.
All built into the skydome, you select the sky as usual in test level.
Cloud formations are constantly changing and evolving.
Lightrays add that extra colour into the mix.
"


Man ... I was just mesmerized watching the video clip ... incredible ...

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cybernescence
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Posted: 6th Mar 2016 15:00
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@ rolfy - brilliant skydome effects, I tried a few out a while back but didn't realise you could use overlapping meshes with animation for this type of thing - very nice find - thanks for sharing approach. How did you get the 'dome .x' in the skybank folder to play its animation when selected via the GG tab tab (no worries if it's secret sauce )?

@ Shadow man - re "that I could scale over the entire map up in the sky". You can get a quad decal to scale across the entire map - has to be not too small to start with and if you use free flight mode to get way up high first the widget will scale it across the full terrain. I've been trying to use this approach to create a moveable water plane, the scaling bit works fine, but yet to work out how to get the water shader to work on it

Cheers.
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rolfy
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Posted: 7th Mar 2016 23:41 Edited at: 8th Mar 2016 00:05
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Day night cycle, I have made the scrolling real fast to see it happening over a couple of minutes.



Quote: "How did you get the 'dome .x' in the skybank folder to play its animation when selected via the GG tab tab (no worries if it's secret sauce )?"
No sauce unfortunately, I am over writing the basic shader for now, it would take some input on the Dev's side with that.
Also needs the sunlight direction to be wired into it to really make it work.

I am pretty sure this could all be done entirely through shader but for now it is a nice enough workaround and it does a decent job.I have probably gone as far as I can with this forn now and will wait and see what Lee gets up to when he gets around to day/night on the voting list.
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science boy
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 00:00 Edited at: 8th Mar 2016 00:03
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i'd buy that for a dollar!

ok sign me up

shame tgc couldnt do this in the first place, but then they have lots to do. you gonna sell this awesome work? i would buy it now like now.... help me spend my money i cant afford to spend
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rolfy
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 00:10 Edited at: 8th Mar 2016 00:11
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Quote: "shame tgc couldnt do this in the first place, but then they have lots to do. you gonna sell this awesome work? i would buy it now like now.... help me spend my money i cant afford to spend"
I am happy to wait till they get to it
I couldn't really sell it either as it needs a way to point to the shader.....currently GG looks for sky_basic.fx in the effectbank folder and you cant do it manually.
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SlipStream
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 08:57
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Hi,
true talent 10 stars i hope this will be for sale as it is amazing!
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rolfy
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 10:50
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Hi Slipstream, thanks and welcome to the forum.
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Teabone
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 20:37 Edited at: 9th Mar 2016 02:48
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Very nice work! Two years ago I made a features request video and cloud formations was in there (within the weather pattern system). Your bringing me hope! lol

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perelect
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 21:59
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Nice work, as always Rofly,
I really hope this makes it in GG, as standard feature at some point.
It looks great in the video, so it must look absolutely marvelous in game.
Cheers
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science boy
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Posted: 8th Mar 2016 22:04
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is it frame hungry does it cost a lot or is it quite light on the frames?

tgc will be absolute morons if they dont jump you for this absolute nongs.
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Posted: 9th Mar 2016 02:36
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sky dome for the win.. Love your work Rolfy inspiration to us here. All the best.

*2 years... lets hope that is behind us now and things can move forward.
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rolfy
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Posted: 9th Mar 2016 04:48 Edited at: 9th Mar 2016 05:38
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Quote: "is it frame hungry does it cost a lot or is it quite light on the frames?"


I get around 240fps with a default static sky, the skydome with animations is same as default, around 240. I get 170 using the default skyscroll. probably because it uses an additional shader. I will keep my eye on it for any drops in FPS but so far no loss.



Nebula skydome. Again the scroll is set fast to show it quickly happening

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Teabone
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Posted: 9th Mar 2016 05:13
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I guess I should call up my composers .... I'm feeling that game dev motivation coming back just looking at this :p
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science boy
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Posted: 14th Mar 2016 01:52
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i am always baffled by your own challenges to yourself! i mean some of your quests are mind boggling, and you always come up with the goods, the early shadows on ceilings etc in fpsc fans and swinging light. the waves we have the lightning dome the ghosts and cloths and then you pul this nugget out of nowhere, along with the side line of interactive kit. i guess i am saying well done.
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Emrys
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Posted: 14th Mar 2016 08:15
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Very, very cool, well done Rolfy
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cybernescence
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Posted: 19th Mar 2016 18:02
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Thanks rolfy for the pointers on this and the idea. I'm totally sold on these animated sky domes now as I find the effect adds a lot to the immersion in the level for little overhead. It took me a while to get this anywhere near your demos (and still not there yet as you can see) as I can't say I find HLSL that intuitive but I'm starting to get it now.



Cheers

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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Mar 2016 19:14 Edited at: 19th Mar 2016 19:37
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Nice work, it is far better than skyscroll and you can do things with domes that cant be done with a box. It is a fairly simple process to project the current default skybox textures to skydome's so you could still have your cake and eat it. I have a couple of nice steampunk skybox's you could use in that game of yours so hit me up with e-mail and I will send 'em over.

All the same I am still working on it and it would be better to physically rotate these meshes rather than grabbing the uv layers in the shader, will also be better to use spheres rather than domes as you will want the base sun/moon layers to scroll far more slowly than the clouds etc and for those scenes in space or up in clouds it will fully enclose. I have had a quick discussion with Lee on it and after the Easy Building Editor is completed you will likely see this go in pretty quickly. Day night cycle is sitting number 4 on the voting board so if I keep plugging away at the best method till then it will mean less work down the line, he has been having similar kind of thoughts with tying it all into sun position for shadows and normals so this should eventually be pretty awesome looking.
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devlin
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Posted: 19th Mar 2016 19:26
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great work again always pushing the limits for more .
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Shadow man
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Posted: 19th Mar 2016 22:56
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I did a bit of research into skydome's after years of making sky boxes,..seems to me that the
only problem may be that at the edge of the dome the clouds look like they are going down
into the ground,...with the curvature of the dome.
I guess this could be alleviated by extending the edge of the dome out beyond the edge of
the map, so you don't notice it as much,..not sure if this can be done in GG, or if this is the
method you are using, but anyway, nice stuff,...colour me intrigued,... we live and learn.
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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Mar 2016 23:42 Edited at: 19th Mar 2016 23:54
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Since these act in the same way as skyboxes they are never on the terrain and always further out from the edges. I think spheres work better, thing with these is that they require a wrapped texture at the poles so you cant get away with using the shader to scroll, the entire mesh needs to be rotated so a different approach to the base layer at least. You could still use dome layers as well to scroll cloud layers.
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Shadow man
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Posted: 20th Mar 2016 00:22 Edited at: 20th Mar 2016 00:23
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Quote: " I think spheres work better"


Well, boxes and domes I have heard about,...but spheres ?,...that's a new one for me,...I guess
I am showing my age up here,...lol...and the fact that I still have a lot to learn,...but never mind,
I like learning new things,....I find it,...as Mr Spock would say,....fascinating.

Goes off to research spheres,...lol.
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rolfy
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Posted: 20th Mar 2016 00:50
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I am still researching myself and now looking into geometry built right into the skysphere....it is possible to do this for added 3D effect.
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Teabone
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Posted: 29th Mar 2016 02:19
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When I used to use Unreal Tournament's engine to create levels, the sky was made up of Skydomes rather than cubes. I noticed in GG at times you can see the flatness and even corners, of which you'd have to hide using fog and things like that.

Are you replacing the skybox mesh to a skydome? Or are you hiding the skybox and placing a skydome? In Unreal you'd have to place the skybox on the map and move it around. I tried to replace the skybox to a skydome in GG when it was FPSC Reloaded but it would just crash.
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rolfy
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Posted: 29th Mar 2016 16:26 Edited at: 29th Mar 2016 16:44
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Hi Teabone, I can't remember specifics off the top of my head but did a couple of things to ensure a skydome would work in GG. I will remember when I come back to it as I am leaving it for now due to not being able to point to any other shader but the sky_basic.fx which I have to replace for now to use these. You can in fact replace the skybox with a box converted to geosphere and apply the six sky textures quite easily to change the current skyboxes to spheres and they will work happily with the default shader but I want to animate so it isn't worth the effort right now.

I have been having success with building geometry right into sky spheres and domes using layer 'shadow' masks, think 'Inception' or the Larry Niven 'Ringworld' books and you get the idea

I am still working on other ideas but without the capability I can only create media now and implement later, discussed it with Lee and waiting for the day/night system to rise to the top of the voting board, if and when that happens things will move forward. I can get these in myself for now but anyone else wanting it would have to wait till the Devs give us the abilty to point to other shaders or forego using the default skyboxes as they are all affected currently if animated. Or as I really want to see a way to physically animate the geometry and not do it all through shader.

All the same it is quite easy to convert the present skybox to a sphere and use the default shader if you are happy enough with static and wanted to get rid of the 'boxiness' you can sometimes see. It should have been done from the start really as it isn't difficult since you use the same six textures as skybox, perhaps they were concerned that Artists wouldn't get it or more likely just didn't think of it....who knows
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science boy
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Posted: 29th Mar 2016 21:21
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which is a shame this is a fantastic project and inspiring. shame blocky builder with no real link to engine schematics is above. already lee said will be basic. what a total waste and a sure way for thousands of people to lose interest
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