Product Chat (Early Access) / GameGuru MAX Live - Broadcast #84 Answers

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2022 17:19 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 11:01
Hi All,

Here is a recording of today's broadcast under the new format:



Q> Is GGMax alpha still auto-updating? It keeps telling me it's up to date, but I don't get the new demo levels
A> To get the latest Max version you should run the GameGuru MAX Updater.exe. New demos will be gradually added to GameGuru Max.

Q> Will we eventually be able to use ladders?
A> Ladder behaviour is already in the GameGuruMax.

Q> Will there be a reference with Lua commands to customize scripts?
A> Yes, you can create and edit existing behaviours using the Behaviour Editor.

Q> Could we see the possibility of blueprints like ue4 in the future?
A> We are working on Behaviour Editor which is similar to Unreal blueprints.

Q> Will we eventually be able to use ladders?
A> Ladder behaviour is already in the GameGuruMax

Q> Any chance the crouch can be lowered. Player cannot crouch below about 4ft 6 inches .. Zombies can walk through that just skimming their head when walking?
A> If you raise an issue on the GitHub issues board, we can take a look ?

Q> Can we get a slider to control grass height?
A> If you raise an issue on the GitHub issues board alongside your reasoning for the request, the team can take a look post EA ?

Q> The terrain textures in that demo don't seem to blend very well. Can we change the opacity/blending of terrain texture to be more gradual?
A> the current implementation is a limitation of our virtual texturing system, to save performance
GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported with bug fixes and functionality additions.

science boy
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2022 18:57
So this instant play, near no load time.... Is this just for testing or will this also be for level loading in standalone
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UltraVox
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2022 22:49
Hi all,

I can only confirm that I have a map that contains more than 1475 3D objects in a close perimeter (large military base). My TestLevel load time is around 6-8 seconds. This is considerable progress. A few days ago, I needed 45 to 55 seconds (see more) to launch a TestLevel. It seemed like an eternity...

I encourage TGC to continue the improvements and to proceed in the same way with the executable.
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UltraVox
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2022 23:27 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2022 23:28
Mine isnt big but still had to watch that bar that took around 8 to 10 seconds ..
Now i dont have time to blink and its there. I have not tried standalone though.
No one ever really leaves.
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 02:37 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 02:55
"I encourage TGC to continue the improvements and to proceed in the same way with the executable."
"I have not tried standalone though."
Fer sure. I hope they are testing and retesting standalone system until it is 100% compliant and rigid all around.

I guess you can make some pretty nice background scenery if you screen capture for other projects, but as far as shooting guys standing around in the trees... this isn't a game. It remains to be seen if you can make a game out of this. I wish ya luck though.

@Lee 05:00 "we waited until this point that the UI has been finalized- now we are at that point."
Well, sadly nobody gave them some critical input as to what the UI really SHOULD HAVE been like.

Since it's such a maze of events and mouse clicks to even start up MAX (nothing like Classic) I don't even have the motivation to start it. "Storyboard", "Procedural terrain" and the bizarre and silly "Behaviors" menu get in the way of production. Those first two features really should just be buttons at top, and the software should start instantly [-from Windows-] on an empty map ready for user to choose their next move.
Now it's like you have just entered a new country and are expected to click through a 16 page application to enter through the doors to this institution in a college doctorate program. S-L-O-W downtown traffic jam.
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 03:10 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 03:10
BTW along with context sensitive video links, there needs to be a thorough tutorial link (Youtube) for from start to finish GGMAX, which could be a button at top as well. A drop down menu of videos. ((MAX development Youtube channel is NOT documentation! Why is that in the help section?))
Ex; How to start a new *project* - I see "load level" - does this pertain to an existing project? Is there always a new project loaded every time MAX starts? This is very confusing. As stated, it should be at the user request when a new project is started- IE it should be super quick if you want to just go in immediately to a flat level and test a script or see how a model is rendered. Ick.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 04:10
@Gubbyblup- I totally agree too much faffing at the beginning.
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Mr.WitherStorm
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 05:48
At this point, it’s really just graphics and optimization it needs to be a pretty solid early access product. If they are gonna be showing a level like this off however I do believe that it needs a baseline of being comparable to 2007 crysis, not even the remaster. That’s a 15 year old game and well I believe that it’s a pretty achievable baseline to aim for with this engine.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 06:44 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 06:45
yes baseline, but I wanna see flatline , meaning I want to just go in and see an empty level terrain , I don;t want to see storyboard etc straightaway, and I want to create a project when I want to create project not be forced into creating a project. Sometimes I want to perform tests without faffing (slang for wasting time with a convoluted task)
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UltraVox
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 08:21 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 08:58
@Bored of the Rings
Quote: "yes baseline, but I wanna see flatline , meaning I want to just go in and see an empty level terrain , I don;t want to see storyboard etc straightaway, and I want to create a project when I want to create project not be forced into creating a project. Sometimes I want to perform tests without faffing (slang for wasting time with a convoluted task)"


In the immediate future, this is unlikely to happen. What TGC wants for the EA release is to have a level with terrain, vegetation, and trees (a full Biome) pre-selected and ready to play by clicking TestLevel. Why ? Because it's the easiest way to test a new product. And also because no other engine worthy of the name offers it. But don't confuse what TGC wants for EA's release, with what will happen to Max after release.

@GubbyBlips
Quote: "Since it's such a maze of events and mouse clicks to even start up MAX (nothing like Classic) I don't even have the motivation to start it."

I too don't like seeing this biome appear at launch. It's 3.7 gigabytes of data that are unnecessarily loaded into memory. Except that, to launch Max I just have to click on its icon. Once inside, I click on the triangle (top left) to go back (in the storyboard), where my default Project is that Max has wisely memorized. All I have to do now is open my Map.

So, 3 clicks in all. I'm not sure other engines can say the same. And still, most of the time, the automatic biome from the start does not load, and Max directs me directly to the Storyboard, in my Project (which Max reopens automatically), where my Map is. So, 2 clicks.
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UltraVox
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OldFlak
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 08:36 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 08:43
Standalones work fine:
I have tried standalone with every build since it was enabled - in all my tests it is actually faster than test-game.

You need to test the features, afterall, how can they address issues if they don't get any feedback?
For example, a few builds ago I was able to show that the standalone EXE was not independent of the MAX install - the github post was responded to and the issue was fixed in the next build.

Quote: "it should be super quick if you want to just go in immediately to a flat level and test a script or see how a model is rendered."

Starting from project is actually a good idea and similar to other major tools. And if you are working on a game then why would you not want to start at the project/story board?

It helps to use the software to learn how it works
- Loading the default map is one arrow click away from the loading screen

The team won't read threads like this, but will respond on github, but if you don't actually use the software nothing you say has any clout at all, and any feedback will mean diddly squat because it is just assumptions rather than real use feedback.

There is plenty I dislike about the direction of the UI as well, but there is no way you will influence the development if don't actually use the software and put valuable feedback and suggestions for improvement on github.

You could actually be helping get at least some things sorted

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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 09:36
ok, I will keep "faffing" when using MAX. just kidding. overall I like MAX, but will continue to use classic for months ahead.
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 15:46

The overall UI looks are great, the tools of procedural terrains and storyboard are wonderful
I give Storyboard a 9.2 /10.
I give Procedural terrain a 6.3 /10 (uses only ONE procedure instead of several variations to choose from.)
( In this case ) Procedure = math fractal equation used to render terrain in case anyone was confused.
Granted a lot of effort went into both- nice job.
Behaviors menu 3.4 / 10 because it's way overinflated and should also be a separate tool again and common windows style menu should be available for script assignments!
The current startup occurs because they want to showcase these major features mentioned when people say from Youtube start a MAX review and the world can see these tools first.
but the DEFAULT START should always be right to a clean workbench level- then like I've said a few times, put those fancy tools BIG and Bold up top in glorious color- no problem.

All they gotta do is NOT treat every startup as an EXISTING project, but just a (what you want to do now) screen.....
I threw together this cheesy image a while back, but since it's embarrassingly large on cheese, I didn't post it then.
I don't expect MAX UI to take on this look, but something kinda in that line - more to their professional image would do...



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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 16:00 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 16:07
Quote: "Since it's such a maze of events and mouse clicks to even start up MAX (nothing like Classic) I don't even have the motivation to start it. "Storyboard", "Procedural terrain" and the bizarre and silly "Behaviors" menu get in the way of production. Those first two features really should just be buttons at top, and the software should start instantly [-from Windows-] on an empty map ready for user to choose their next move."


Firstly, most game development tools, like Unreal, for example, require you to go through a few screens to set up a project before getting to the actual editor. Its how you keep different "games" or "applications" separate from each other while working. Once you set these up, you are then released to the level editor where you can then begin your work. MAX works mostly the same way, taking you through a few steps to set up your project before releasing you to the editing to start your game/project.

Secondly, it's not a maze. It's a few simple clicks. The first allows you to open an existing project. If you have one, you click it and it takes you to the Storyboard so you can choose to work on various aspects of your game - menus, ending screens, choose levels, etc. The main things you'll want to do here is choose which level you'll want to work on. Most people's games will have more than one level. So, even if MAX had taken you straight to the level editor, you'd still have to access the Menu to select which level you'd wanted to work on and the clicks would have been the same.

If you don't have an existing project or don't want to open an existing project, then you create a new one and MAX basically walks you through that, ultimately bringing you to the Terrain Generator screen. There's a lot here, but the idea is to help people auto-generate a base to begin with. But if you don't need that, you just select EMPTY and click GENERATE and you'll be taken to the editor after saving the name of your initial level.

It's really all about understand what MAX is. It's not a modeling program, so it doesn't start at the editor like a modeling program does. It's a design tool for making games. As such, it's project oriented. And, as such, it starts out by "forcing" the end-user to create a project and keeping everything made as part of that project so, in the end, when a stand-alone is made, it can export that single-project. As such, it allows you to work on several project at the same time. Else, things could get messy. There's a lot to a game - models, materials, scripts, etc. - and game creation tools like MAX try to help organize it all via projects.

Quote: "Is there always a new project loaded every time MAX starts? This is very confusing. As stated, it should be at the user request when a new project is started- IE it should be super quick if you want to just go in immediately to a flat level and test a script or see how a model is rendered. Ick."


It's right there. You either select Create a New Game Project or My Games, Demo Games, etc. So, no, it's not always a new project loaded every time. The choice is right there, right in front of you right when you start MAX. It is all at the user's request.

As far as getting into the editor quickly to see how a model renders, that's not what a game engine is normally for. If you want to do this in Unreal, for example, you'd still have to go through the initial steps of creating a project just to get into the editor ... or you'd have to open an existing project. So, to get around this, you create a simple project that's for testing stuff like how models render. That's what I've done in MAX. Then I can get to the editor in a few clicks, load in a model, and test it. Simple. It's how I've worked in Unreal, too.
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Posted: 24th Feb 2022 23:32 Edited at: 24th Feb 2022 23:33
@Argent_Arts
I understand and appreciate that you took the time to explain the reasoning behind their startup process... but
"like Unreal"..... "If you want to do this in Unreal".....
Hmmm... what if you want to bypass that baloney Unreal weirdness and use Game Guru?
No matter how many times you say "Unreal", it's not relevant to my argument.
"You either select
Create a New Game Project
or My Games,
Demo Games"

EXACTLY. Exactly wrong method.
For 99.9% of the time I just need to get in and work on a script which means I don't need; "New Game Project or My Games, Demo Games..." LOL TGC hate script testers.... is that it?

I have had GG Classic for ? ... 3 years let's say (longer actually) but at no time ever did I need to start it up with a fully configured game project pre-planned on paper and ready to design in the UI. It's freakin hard as one person to complete an entire game from scratch (an actual, real game!) along with design, it requires custom SCRIPTS and 99% of the time I will never use any of the stock scripts. So please take a moment and consider what I have just explained. I have on the other hand started up GG about 1,000 times just to test a script with a start marker, one barrel and a couple objects...!

For sure I'm not against a project system, I endorse a project system. If they didn't have a project system already, I might be on GitHub asking if they planned to have one. But never was it more productive, easier nor necessary to start a game engine on the game project screen. But get real- YOU HAVE TO SCRIPT FIRST before you need those!
I explained why they are highlighting these tools. That and to look more sophisticated.
I chose GG over Unreal #1 because of it's simplicity to start it up and just go with it right out of the gates.
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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 02:56 Edited at: 25th Feb 2022 02:58
I used Unreal as an example, which you latched onto. What you missed is this part:

Quote: "... most game development tools, like Unreal, for example, require you to go through a few screens to set up a project before getting to the actual editor."


It's not just Unreal. MAX is now in line with many of the more solid game development tools out there. It may not have the most elegant means of going about doing it. And most here would probably agree with you on that. But there's nothing wrong with having it as it's a good and logical way to do things. Set up your project and then go to work. And that's because a game is a project consisting of many parts. It's not like just jumping into Blender and modeling a cube. That's not what MAX is for.

And, no, you don't need to script before you need to set up the project. You need the project first. Not in the least. You don't in MAX (which promotes itself as a game creation system where you can create games WITHOUT having to script if you don't want to) and you don't in these other game engines, either. You may not like it. But there are good reasons to work this way. For MAX, it helps it set up the entire structure for what it needs to work for you to create your game, for example.
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 02:57 Edited at: 25th Feb 2022 11:44
Quote: "EXACTLY. Exactly wrong method.
For 99.9% of the time I just need to get in and work on a script which means I don't need; "New Game Project or My Games, Demo Games..." LOL TGC hate script testers.... is that it?"

Such Drama ..
Simply create a Blank project.

Quote: "For sure I'm not against a project system, I endorse a project system. If they didn't have a project system already, I might be on GitHub asking if they planned to have one."

So you have your endorsed Project system, a Quick start level to work with or any other project you may be working on.
Also you can edit or test the menu and game live from the project screen before creating a standalone.

No one ever really leaves.
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Mr.WitherStorm
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 05:43
There really shouldn’t be any drama over this as there are far more relevant problems and features needing to be talked about instead of having to click 2 buttons to load a level
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 05:58 Edited at: 25th Feb 2022 05:58
yes the project thing isn't a biggy for me , just an annoyance. As TGC are such fans of having hidden options in settings, maybe there could be an enable storyboard / project startup just kidding , of course I'm being sarcastic. dont't take it to heart
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 11:07 Edited at: 25th Feb 2022 11:52
@GubbyBlips
Quote: "EXACTLY. Exactly wrong method.
For 99.9% of the time I just need to get in and work on a script which means I don't need; "New Game Project or My Games, Demo Games..." LOL TGC hate script testers.... is that it?"

Learn the tool ...?
You don't have to create a project at all if you don't want to.

Tis one click away from loading the default level like GGc does, and then from there start playing or load any level from the file system or create a new level to play with.



You can also add any level to any project at anytime, they are not locked to a specific project - its up to you.
Projects are of course a much better way to keep you game in one place where you can focus on each aspect of its development.

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AmenMoses
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 11:40
Quote: " 99% of the time I will never use any of the stock scripts. So please take a moment and consider what I have just explained. I have on the other hand started up GG about 1,000 times just to test a script with a start marker, one barrel and a couple objects...!"


Ditto.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 12:01
@OldFlak-I'm sure that didn't work for me before I couldn't get out of project/storyboard screens and kept looping, well what a relief. I must of had a "dizzy" moment. Thanks for sharing vid. Very helpful.
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Posted: 25th Feb 2022 21:51 Edited at: 26th Feb 2022 02:13
Quote: "@OldFlak-I'm sure that didn't work for me before I couldn't get out of project/storyboard screens and kept looping, well what a relief. I must of had a "dizzy" moment. Thanks for sharing vid. Very helpful."

Probably not a dizzy spell - it has been in a state of flux on occasion, and there were times when it was broken. Lot of fine tuning going on.

I don't use that method myself, I just have test levels in various projects. I also have levels in my main project for testing, just don't hook them up and standalone will ignore them.

Also we can now skip the HUB completely and load straight to default level or last project





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Cylo
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Posted: 27th Feb 2022 17:03 Edited at: 27th Feb 2022 17:06
Quote: "I chose GG over Unreal #1 because of it's simplicity to start it up and just go with it right out of the gates.
"

I think the main reason is that if you're working alone, you need a tool that does a lot for you, and you focus on your game idea. Look at the end of any game, indie or AAA, and see the long list of names.
Making a game being alone is nearly impossible if you have to do everything, and care for every single aspect.
That's why GG exists IMO, even if it still has a long way ahead.
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Posted: 27th Feb 2022 19:22
After the update my map is broken just like the previous updates,
I will never be able to start a W.I.P while GG Max are being worked on
I get this spicks in my maps and now they are corrupt this happens every time i have errors when i tried to update the weekly updates,
and then i have to start all over from scratch!!!

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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 27th Feb 2022 20:11
It is alpha software. You should really only use alpha software for testing and reporting bugs.
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Cylo
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Posted: 27th Feb 2022 20:39 Edited at: 27th Feb 2022 20:40
And what is this tree?

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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 27th Feb 2022 20:46
It's a MAX error that has been reported in GitHub.
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science boy
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Posted: 28th Feb 2022 20:32
Is it just my engine that occasionally slows to a crawl in certain areas with forest and grass and then goes normal again its in the same spots. Amd is just certain areas.

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Posted: 1st Mar 2022 00:15
Quote: "And what is this tree? "

It's a ground walker

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Posted: 1st Mar 2022 01:18
Lily pads.
Laptop: Lenovo - Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 1005M @ 1.90GHz

OS: Windows 10 (64) - Ram: 4 gb - Hd: 283 gb - Video card: Intel(R) HD Graphics
cpu mark: 10396.6
2d graphics mark: 947.9
3d graphics mark: 8310.9
memory mark 2584.8
Disk mark: 1146.3
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OldFlak
GameGuru TGC Backer
9
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Joined: 27th Jan 2015
Location: Tasmania Australia
Posted: 1st Mar 2022 04:42 Edited at: 1st Mar 2022 12:12
Quote: "Is it just my engine that occasionally slows to a crawl in certain areas with forest and grass and then goes normal again its in the same spots. Amd is just certain areas."

No - seeing the same
Will be marginally better if you don't use any of the pines they really suck up the fps.
But even then player movement is still iffy in places.

OldFlak....
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Main Screen: HP 27" @1920x1080 - Screens 2\3: Acer 24" @ 1920 x 1080

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Insider
aka Reliquia
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science boy
15
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Joined: 3rd Oct 2008
Location: Up the creek
Posted: 1st Mar 2022 12:57
Quote: "No - seeing the same
Will be marginally better if you don't use any of the pines they really suck up the fps.
But even then player movement is still iffy in places."


That's good to know. That it's not just me
I wonder if its the fact they have upped tree density or if it's a physics issue i mean my world view of it all from up top is no problem its when in ditches in forest areas. It does look plush and very good minus the vegetation as thats still poor in my eyes. Hope there is a fix. My dungeons are looking great however jumping between levels is not up and running you cant have multiple jumps as in have a main map and have cave levels connected to the main map unless i am missing something
Im 50 now aint a kid travelled the world been in terrorist bombing shot at near kidnapped. Have an audi a house a fiancee a cat and ex dj and promoter and now home Manager. Have a degree and lots of quals and this is actually all true
Monkey Frog
4
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Joined: 5th Feb 2020
Location:
Posted: 1st Mar 2022 15:21
There's an issue on GitHub talking about tree shadows really slowing things down. Perhaps it's that? But whatever it is, whenever I get in the thick of the woods, things do get slow here, too.
Intel i9-10900K 5.10GHz, 64 GB RAM, Nvidia GTX 1080 ti 11GB, Windows 10 64-bit, dual monitor display
Supe
GameGuru Tool Maker
4
Years of Service
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Joined: 4th Feb 2020
Location: WORLD
Posted: 1st Mar 2022 18:45 Edited at: 1st Mar 2022 18:52
GG max (god of optimize and render ultimate edition) am I wrong?
I just wanted to simulate Steam comments if this software is released.
Desktop: corei5, ram32, graphic card6GB
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KtN6HMp1VEInALBZ89hmUBwfzqbeL9Wz/view?usp=sharing

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