Product Chat / GameGuru MAX Live - Broadcast #34 Answers

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 16:37
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Hi All,

We hope you enjoyed our broadcast this week, and for those who could not make it, here is the recording:


And for all the questions I could not answer live, here they are:

Q> ​Will there be an option to change the mouse settings such as sensitivity and mouse acceleration?
A> There are no plans to add mouse acceleration, but there is a control slider for mouse sensitivity for the in-game configuration.

Q> ​When we will be able to use a Stable version to create games with Updates to fix the bugs?
A> We do not have a fixed date for the first stable version able to save our standalone games. To avoid disappointment, best to wait until we have finished the product and have seen some good solid games created before deciding to use MAX for your commercial game development.

Q> ​The Plane Stitches are visible when you brush over it with some ground texture ... will it be fixed ??
A> Yes this is a known bug. Don't worry about reporting terrain bugs at this stage we have a lot more to do with that system.

Q> Selection showing a yellow band is great but it's difficult to distinguish Dynamic from Static entities ... Any thoughts on this .. Classic was Red and Green.
A> The current highlighter technology uses a stencil buffer to identify the areas of highlight, and we can only give it a single color. We could do two or more passes for different colors but we are aware this might hit performance. Would a marker above the object work just as well to determine which objects are static and which are dynamic, or should we aim to make sure it does not really matter and let the games engine take care of identifying when an object should be static. Interesting thought.

Q> So is the new scripting system still LUA?
A> Yes we are using the LUA Programming Language for the scripting language for GameGuru MAX.

Q> ​Can there be an ultra-violence setting so I can shoot people and they explode into blood like in postal 2?
A> There are no plans for an ultra-violence mode in GameGuru MAX, though you can certainly set up enemies to explode as soon as they are shot, more akin to Serious Sam

Thanks for all your questions, and I look forward to answering more next week!
GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported with bug fixes and functionality additions.

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science boy
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 17:35
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so has the graphics and lighting system been fixed as last weeks was horrific, im using 2 weeks ago build as this one is a shocker?

surprised no one mentioned it

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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 17:55
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Great video Lee, a question about grouping which is looking extremely useful.

It would be great if you can add "Name Group", say for example you have 1 house populated with clutters and objects inside, if the user then created say 8 groups, it would be nice to add a name for each house, with the name placed over the thumbnail in the corner somewhere.

That way finding and editing objects within each group would be simpler.
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 18:03
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Resource monitor: If you do add this, please can it display memory used in MB? I mean, it's great to know my scene contains 500 draw calls, but I have no way of quantified that, or knowing if it would run from one system to the next. Whereas if it could say, "Texture memory consumption: 3,356MB" I would know that 2GB cards will not be able to run my game. Likewise, knowing there are 24 AI scripts running is meaningless unless you tell me how many megabytes of RAM they are using, or CPU percentage.

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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 18:29
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About reporting bug system, would be nice to have some way to add a video link recreating the bug, if possible, it might help, imho.
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 19:35 Edited at: 10th Mar 2021 19:36
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Quote: "so has the graphics and lighting system been fixed as last weeks was horrific, im using 2 weeks ago build as this one is a shocker?. Surprised no one mentioned it"

You weren't looking in the right places. Plenty of people mentioned it I'm hoping it will be fixed as well, but didn't want to ask on the livestream. I also noticed grouping was not working, and my old way of selecting several objects and alt dragging to clone them was also gone, but let it be.
The bug system looks an interesting addition. If implemented well, should be a lot easier to report issues in the future.
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MadLad Designs
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 21:18
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I like the bug report system (BRS).

Perhaps the BRS could have two tabs? One showing the list of bugs you have sent, and another to show all the bugs that have been reported? This way people can easily see what bugs have already been reported so as not to duplicate?
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 22:01
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Maybe in the future reports should be tagged and/or categorized, it might help as well.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 10th Mar 2021 22:28
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Quote: "so has the graphics and lighting system been fixed as last weeks was horrific, im using 2 weeks ago build as this one is a shocker?

surprised no one mentioned it"
I have spoken to Lee about it providing reference pictures and such. The engine update isn't bugged, it lacks the finer controls. I have mentioned that a one fit all solution isn't going to be ideal.Lee has been really helpful in this regard suggestion tweaking various settings and such to improve the look. Using the cold war pack demo level, to test out max with, lots of lights, polygons and shadows ect. While you can tweak the ambience colours when using simulated sky, lack of finer controls really poses a problem. especially with the newly added HDR. which makes and lit areas overly bright and the contrast between lit and unlit areas is especially sharp and less then ideal.

Did mention getting back surface light shader would definitely help, but we really need to be able to tweak the range of the HDR as well as the power of how it effects objects around it, if we can tweak the ''glow'' from lit objects it should drastically improve things.

I do feel being forced to use the simulated sky, which to be honest isn't exactly great, feels very old school like, there really isn't any depth to the sky box and as far as I am aware the HDR doesn't affect the skybox at all or all that much. One should be able to use the static skybox as well and have those setting you have with the simulated sky as well.

So it isn't that it is bugged more that it lacks the controls to tweak each scene/level as needed.
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DVader
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 00:48
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Quote: "So it isn't that it is bugged more that it lacks the controls to tweak each scene/level as needed."

It's definitely bugged. My map from the day before changed from a dark gloomy scene (with very basic graphics, that the gloom had hidden nicely) to a horrible over bright scene, that looked like it was from the year 2000. Attempts to fix it were not effective. That's a bug for certain in my eyes. When a map you made the day before completely changes without you actually changing it, I would consider a bug or a change of direction that has not been properly implemented. Either way, a bug for the the majority of users.

My map not only changed the lighting, it totally flipped it's direction! I had a map where the player start was at the bottom, facing up. After the update, the same map had the player at the top facing down. For certain a big difference with an update!
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wizard of id
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 04:31
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Quote: "It's definitely bugged"
It is neither worth the time and effort to argue about it. It's not bugged, incompletely probably.....bugged it is definitely not, as it is pretty much an entirely new renderer.
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DVader
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 05:58
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Well, I'm definitely not going to start an argument about semantics, but the last update was poor to say the least; it broke all sorts of things in the looks department. Plus, the main advertised features of the update (grouping objects) was not implemented at all; it actually removed existing features for grouping and cloning objects that were already present.

When it comes down to it, not wiring up the engine correctly, while pushing the new engine update as an improvement is still the same thing. Incomplete is just as bad as code with issues. Either way, for the end user, not working is not working and bugged is as good a description as any other. I'm pretty certain the majority will agree here. Let's hope that this weeks update is a bit more complete.
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 06:08
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@dvader- yes definitely bugged to high heaven. If it's not working as it should, it's a bug, no need for arguement, it's fact. I'm sure Lee and co will fix it. Not the best of updates.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 16:40
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UM I am curious, since you are adamant that it's bugged, what exactly is bugged. ? You are aware before this actual update the previous wicked engine version was in no way perfect and had a few actual bugs as well

The problem I have calling the new visuals as a bug, then you are wrong. The new visuals work exactly like they should, they aren't particularly great but they aren't bugged. There is a few rendering bugs related to horizon and fog and such.But the actual render is working perfectly as intended as mentioned not particularly great but none the less.

Because it is less visually appealing, doesn't make it "bugged" ?. That is why I rather not have this argument, because people calling the graphics render being worse than the one before, bugged, it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

Because some thing is worse than before, doesn't make it a bug................IT JUST MAKES IT WORSE, NO, simple enough or are you still going to argue it being a BUG, or do I need to dumb it down to a 1st grade level understanding ? Seriously just think about it for 2 minutes. !
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science boy
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 17:26
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But it is a lesser engine in that fact. And maybe it needs correcting by the engineers or it should. This exact thimg happened with game guru classic it was looking amazing then they messed it up totally and it lost appeal. so is this a tgc render issue or is it the wicked engine. One has done it, and at present my pennies are on tgc did something to it from past experience with classic. And classic was no more what it was. x10 and fpsc were better graphics wise. Illuminous grass and brightness killed classic and now its back but with the wicked engine. I do hope they get it back to its original look
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 17:57
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Yeah it's a bug
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wizard of id
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 19:28
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This a bug too, by your definition .( yes commonly known as a beetle or bug, sarcasm might be lost on some)I guess you going to make a report about it on github, or there going to be some funny excuse why you not going to post to github.Like Lee should be aware of it, blah blah. If its not there you should post it with haste.Should be interesting to read the actual bug description.
Perhaps look up the actual definition of what a ''software bug '' is

A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.




Bugs fall under the following groups

Functional
Crash
Message error
Missing commands
Typos
Calculation error
Control flow
hardware usage error


So which group does it fall under ?
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 20:34
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Gah, I think Lee misunderstood my question about player arms, he thought I was asking for some kind of built-in gun viewmodel editor or the like, I meant more like a standardized set of arm bones you'd place + animate into the weapon viewmodel, then the engine could apply a chosen arm model and texture to said bones (specified in the start marker and changeable via Lua command. Having the texture being specified/changed separately from the model allows for skin tone variation.), sort of like what Garry's Mod does to it's weapons based on your playermodel, or what Left 4 Dead does based on which character you're playing as.

I think such a feature is quite important for RPG games, so your arms could reflect your chosen skin tone, species/race, and worn armor, without having to make a different sword for each possible arm appearance combination and then setting up all the logic to choose which sword the player gets. (If you have only 3 skin tones, 3 races, and 3 armor types, and a single sword, that's already 27 different swords you'd have to make! It increases exponentially for every single new skin tone, race, armor type, and weapon you add. The only other option is to make it so no matter what armor, species, race, etc. you are you have the same hands/arms. Which, doesn't make sense for a green-skinned Orc wearing plate armor to have the bare hands of a caucasian human )
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Posted: 11th Mar 2021 20:57
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Quote: "So which group does it fall under ?"


The "They Bug-gered it up (again)" group.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 00:19
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@All : Please email me your 'before and after' shots so I can get a handle on what you consider worse with the new lighting model. Wizard has helped a lot providing both assets and level so I can run before and after tests to see the lighting differences, and there are some additional lighting settings we are narrowing down on. To learn the new renderer is "totally broken" is a little alarming as we really did not change that much, so any screenshots (and ideally assets and a level) so I can see this for myself with the early and latest build will help me understand the changes that contribute to the latest feedback regarding the final render.

So far I am very happy with the new auto-exposure function, the control of scene ambience and the small improvements from the latest Wicked engine update. I am not aware of any wholesale changes to the pipeline that would create such a drastic reaction, so looking forward to your screenshots! Thanks.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 02:10
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@Lee
Email sent.
Should give you a good idea of what we are seeing in our maps.
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 13:27
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Hello everybody,

Yesterday, I uploaded a video capture of my Game Guru Max tests (Build 2021.03.05 on the splash screen = Build 2021.02.26 in the version.ini file) . Link to Movavi Cloud : http://cloud.movavi.com/show/QwPkHUTCR4snaKxuiNdhMEYLZzvgDrft

Today, I uploaded a new video capture relative to one of the tests recorded yesterday. But this time I did it with Game Guru Max (Build 21.03.12 on the splash screen = Build 21.03.05 in the version.ini file). Link to Movavi Cloud : http://cloud.movavi.com/show/ASGpcPk3WQwg91lUeaVzmRs2MFxZiXCE

Those uploaded video captures have a relatively big size (respectively 486 MB = 2 min 07 sec and 176 MB = 45 sec) , but they are recorded in HD format and compressed in high quality (H264 MP4).

In my humble opinion, the visual quality is better in the previous version of Game Guru Max (Build 2021.03.05 on the splash screen).

Thank for watching.


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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 13:56
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I took some stills from mikeven's videos. Obviously couldn't line them up perfectly but it looks to me like the new build isn't displaying normal maps?



Is the adaptive exposure feature toggleable like it is in Wicked Engine Editor?

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 14:43 Edited at: 12th Mar 2021 14:43
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@ALL : Thanks for your posts to help me get closer to the solution. I did find some simple bugs which may cause the ambience to throw off a before and after shot, and some issues with the new env probes, but I have fixed those for today's build. Hopefully, it improves the visuals on your own levels.

Here is the cellar demo with the build going out today:


Currently, the auto exposure is not togglable, but I agree this should be an option in the post-processor settings.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 14:44
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P.S. Does everyone see the announcement pop up announcing the 2021.03.12 build? Is anyone still seeing the announcement for the 2021.03.05 build?
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 14:49
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No, still shows 2021.03.05 in the help->about window and if I check for updates it just says it's up to date.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 14:52
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What about the announcement panel, do you see this:

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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 14:55
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No, just goes straight into MAX.
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DVader
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 14:59 Edited at: 12th Mar 2021 15:02
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Yes, noticed the same last week as well with the into screen updating a few days before the actual new update.


@AmenMoses. If you may have it disabled in the options. You can switch it on and off in there.
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:00
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I don't get an intro screen at all!
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:00
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You can toggle this to see the announcement panel:


GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported with bug fixes and functionality additions.

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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:04
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Ah, yes with it re-enabled the splash screen is saying it is 03.12 even though I didn't see any update occurring.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:05
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I can confirm I get the announcement panel with 2021.03.12 on it
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:12
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Syncromesh said you can revert back to an older update. I see no obvious way to do this so far. Would be useful so I can grab a couple of shots to demonstrate the difference. I know one map completely flipped direction! STart marker was at bottom, then after update flipped to top.
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:17 Edited at: 12th Mar 2021 15:18
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Quote: "yncromesh said you can revert back to an older update. I see no obvious way to do this so far."

Click on the middle field.

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DVader
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:20
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Ah, was looking from in Max, only see the updater when it updates
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:28
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The Bug reporting system is brilliant BTW .. You may want to check that out
But please only to report bugs
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:31 Edited at: 12th Mar 2021 15:32
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The auto exposure most definitely should be toggleable. I'm sure you can easily make it so the range and such is located somewhere easy to edit, since it's not a cryptic feature and shouldn't be hardcoded. In fact GG Max is looking nice because so little seems to be hardcoded, which is great!
Of course I could be wrong, but the more the builders can customize and build themselves the more successful this engine will be. Otherwise it'll be another 5 years of fun pseudo map editor meandering.
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DVader
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:50
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OK, here are some example shots.






The Bright ones are the new version and the dark ones the old. We defo need some way for the eyeball simulator to try to keep it looking more like the designer set it up.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 15:55
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here you go...



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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 16:12
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Hello
I have a question to put to Lee I purchased model packs fantasy, and sci-fi a long time ago way back when Game Guru first had them. A lot of the characters that came with these packs were also part of the old character creator. Will those old Characters work with Max or will they be replaced with new Max Creations???
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DVader
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 16:28
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I can't speak for Lee, but I would imagine not, as I think the new system is very different in the way it works. Would be an idea to convert any existing CC parts to Max of course, as long as they look okay in it.
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 16:37
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Downloaded/installed without any issue.
I got GmeguuMax build 2021.03.12 via help>about the menu.
The splash screen comes after activating it via the setting panel.

The looks have changed compared with the previews one. In previews one I have to touch a lot of sliders to get something more or less decent, now it looks like an automatic process, that's cool.

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DVader
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 16:42
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Two more images.


I was playing about with what could be made from simple objects (cube, sphere, cylinder and torus here) But add in some torches on the walls and it would have looked reasonably effective, considering.
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mikeven
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 17:27
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Hello again,

I come back after having read the latest comments.
Thank you to Avenging Eagle for having nicely done this accurate assembly of two screen captures relative to my uploaded videos.
His work and comment helped me to understand what happened.

About the build dates, here is a commented picture including a few cropped screen captures where you can see that the information about them is confusing.



After having read the latest Lee Bamber's comments in this thread, I updated again Game Guru Max.

My conclusion about that new build :

- a great improvement is this one : it is now possible to combine "Transparent" and "Cast Shadows" in the "Materials" settings, as shown in this picture :


- the "Materials" settings stored in a saved project (file : name_x.fpm) created with a previous build are not reloaded in the same way with the newest build. Avenging Eagle noticed that the "Normal" maps was missing in the rendering of the "Material" applied on each part of my imported FBX model. In fact, the "Normal" maps are loaded, but their value is now set to "-1" . It is quite possible (but I cannot verify it) that some other settings of the "Materials" are also loaded with a different value.

Therefore, if a project created with a previous build contain a large number of items, then it is difficult to adjust the "Materials" settings for each of them. But I don't complain about that because l am a beta-tester and frankly said, since January 2021, I can see a serious progress in the development of Game Guru Max.

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DVader
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Posted: 12th Mar 2021 17:37
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I'm sure people aren't complaining as such, just reporting major differences to builds. The automatic eye light adjustment is nice, but totally ruins scenes set to look a set way, with no apparent way to easily fix them. No amount of tweaking with light colours could revert the scenes I posted above to their original look. After loading each of the scenes I have posted up, each one was lit up like a Christmas tree and lost all subtlety of lighting. I'm sure that will be addressed though.
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science boy
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Posted: 13th Mar 2021 11:29 Edited at: 13th Mar 2021 11:49
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post change sent lee the images to view
an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of game creation!!!

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synchromesh
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Posted: 13th Mar 2021 13:08
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Quote: "I'm sure people aren't complaining as such, just reporting major differences to builds. The automatic eye light adjustment is nice, but totally ruins scenes set to look a set way, with no apparent way to easily fix them."

This would be a nice edition for HDR

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shivers
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Posted: 13th Mar 2021 16:54
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Hello

I just got to look at this new beta and a first I was link nope don't like the visuals but then I altered the fog and other settings , and I was able to get a setting I liked again. So I started walking through the cellar demo again to make sure I like the settings and I noticed something I have never seen before shadows from the player I can see my arms and gun really cool. Every one should check it out, thanks Lee and Max team for the Hard work can't wait to see what's next
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synchromesh
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Posted: 13th Mar 2021 17:10
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Quote: "I just got to look at this new beta and a first I was link nope don't like the visuals but then I altered the fog and other settings , and I was able to get a setting I liked again. So I started walking through the cellar demo again to make sure I like the settings and I noticed something I have never seen before shadows from the player I can see my arms and gun really cool. Every one should check it out, thanks Lee and Max team for the Hard work can't wait to see what's next "

The fog is still broken after the Repo ( hence missing from the cellar demo )
As for the arms and guns shadow i hate to burst your bubble but i think that is a bug for sure and not a feature.
The arms are rigged to the gun and really should not cast a shadow.
As far as bugs go though then good find.
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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