HI All,

In a similar vein to the other threads recently posted to focus on specific features of the upcoming GameGuru MAX, what does everyone think about the Structure Editor in its current dev build form? Did anyone use it extensively in Classic, do you think it's enough for MAX, or should we rethink how buildings and larger structures should be constructed from within the software, or do we think outside the box and instead, import from external tools that do a far better job such as SKETCHUP or something similar, and instead focus on the job of importing them in such a way as they become game ready with correct materials, physics shapes, attributes, and other associations?

If it remains an internal tool, would you prefer to see something more akin to SIMS style building creation, at the higher level of decision rather than creating your structures one small block at a time? Your thoughts most welcome!

Hi Lee, hope you be keeping safe

Personally I don't use it. To me dev time would be better spent on more useful tools for the engine for now.

On the other hand I can see others might want it - it would perhaps make a great DLC.

OldFlak....

I don't use the structure editor / EBE. I use entities, similar to how other devs build interiors in other engines.

Entities are far more versatile and you can add more complex geometry and angler design. Also slops and curves, etc. A bonus is the ability to also add interactive walls like explodable or animated components to them... many possibilities. Also we can assign the material indexes to match the correct type of sounds/impacts and etc to the floors, walls and ceilings when using entities. I dont know if you can even have different sounds for walking on different materials in an EBE structure.

Would be nice if some of those EBE tools were there for the Entity Edit mode as well. Interior designing currently is still a difficult process. It may never be as quick and easy as it was in FPSC. For instance the ability to draw walls while in grid mode was something FPSC was able to do any only able to do right out of the box. You can't actually do that when in Entity Edit mode in Game Guru,. Instead you have to constantly click to place and worry about if they are stacking inside of each other. EBE you can draw but would be fantastic if we could in Entity Edit mode.

The way I design interiors is more similar to how its done here:
https://youtu.be/zvm0CN3tQFI?t=421

It appears people still use the EBE however so I think we'll have to hear from those folks to see what their needs are.

I only use Sketchup for all the assets i make, this is by choice i can use Blender but can model in Sketchup 3 times faster so i prefer it, granted you do have to be careful with SketchUp and delete all unnecessary geometry but i got use to it now

I have also used the EBE extensively when it was first introduced but unfortunately i had quite a few issues with it now some of those issues were sorted but did take a long time to be fixed, this led to my frustration with a Game i was making that was 90% EBE


I can honestly say that i would not use EBE anymore whilst it maybe ideal for a new user to get started i don't think it is ideal, as already stated it takes too long and can be quite fiddly.

I don't use it, in fact, I have not idea how it works. anyway, it may be a very useful tool for not modeler and newcomers, after all, it is part of the easy game maker, so, improving it may be a good idea, imho.
Maybe adding the feature FPS has, to make windows and doors, and/or providing dlc with EBE stuff.

I use the EBE alot, and I know a few other users do as well. For me I use it for simple things like walls and floors. But still everything is so "blocky" when you use the EBE. And it isn't as versatile as something like Unity where you can create a simple 3d object, in the editor, like a cylinder or cube, and then resize and rescale to whatever you want, drag and drop a material onto it and be done.

You mentioned creating your structures one block at a time, well I would say it would be nice to even have more detail. To be able to go to 1/4 of the size of the small block. For example currently, if you have a wall and want to add some 1 block "trim" to the bottom of the wall with the single block it will still look very blocky. It reminds me of Minecraft and not in a good way. Also making any hallway or room with corners is not good either because there are no rounded edges. So you have to import some asset to place at the all corners of hallways and turns because it looks so fake having non rounded corners everywhere.

Also the EBE at the moment only works with DNS files, that is you have to select a texture that ends with _D and it then finds the associated _N and _S textures. Which is honestly becoming a nightmare for PBR. What I do is use my _color _normal and _gloss maps and then rename them to D N S. Then when I save my structure I find the new texture atlas, rename it to _color _normal _gloss, change the name in the FPE and the shader to apbr_basic. Then the real fun part comes if any of the textures used need metalness maps or AO maps or emissive maps I get to create a new atlas with those maps in it, and you end up spending more time trying to get the damn textures to work than it took you to make the model! It would be nice if I could just select a _color map when choosing my texture and it would find the associated maps with that.

In the EBE editor you can change the "material" type for footsteps and impact effects for each texture but this is pointless cause when the structure is saved you can only have 1 material assigned. So it's not possible to have like a metal floor and wood walls. Well it is but then the wood would sound like metal and have metal decal when shot, etc.

The widget of the EBE also becomes an actual physical 3d object when you save your structure. Which means depending on placement it could be poking out somewhere on your level.

Oh one of the biggest issues is you cannot use the EBE in the current level you are working on. You have to go to a blank new level then create your structure. Like many others I learned this is hard way. Creating an EBE structure and trying to edit it for whatever reason causes insane memory problems. It will completely destroy any level. The structure must be saved and then the dbo file brought into the new level. So even if you know this it becomes a problem. Example: I have a cool hallway model I made with entities. I have a doorway at the end of the hallway. I need to use the EBE to create a room that attaches to the hallway. So I have to save my level. Open a blank map, create my EBE structure, but how do I know how big to make the doorway to the room? I can't edit the EBE on my level because of the memory problems so unless I can recreate the hallway on the blank map exactly the same as in the level and then create my EBE to line it up perfect, I will have to guess the size to make the doorway. And if I guess wrong then I have to, go back into the FPE change the structure to EBE again, change the texture to _D, reopen a new map drop the structure in, edit it, rinse and repeat. Compare this process to other engines where if you need a simple room you just create a cube, resize/rescale it to create floors and walls, drop material on it, done.

It is nice when you need to make a basic square room or hallways and all the walls and floors are the same type of material. But In its current form as is, I do not think it should be included into Max. And we should still be able to import any saved structure from classic into Max so if someone absolutely must use it then can still make their model easily in classic.

Three ways to improve structure editor/EBE.

1. Fix the memory issues demonstrated in this thread by Defy

2. Implement CSG punch meshes like we had in FPSC so doorways, windows, and jagged cuts as were seen in FPSC games become possible again.

3. Add a broader range of building pieces; curved walls, slopes of different angles, cylindrical pillars etc.

Basically, just give us back the functionality we used to have with segments in FPSC, but in Game Guru .

AE

I actually love the EBE its very unique in the sense that it creates its own texture sheet and you can use your finished model as literally a standalone model and i have seen some really cool stuff done with it.

HOWEVER .... For the good of Max i will just go with the flow in fact whatever you decide im good but BEWARE.
This could break current Projects if you remove it and you will get the Broken Promises comments from those that seem to love to bash you over the head with it

I've only played with EBE, but would not use it as it is in Classic. However, if we could import our own assets to use for walls, floors, ceilings, and the like and use them in an EBE-like fashion, that would be great, actually. So, if there were parameters that we would have to follow (i.e. wall and floor segments must fit a specific size or some such so that it would work in EBE) then we we could create our own walls and floors, etc. and go to town quickly putting together levels.

Ebe is pretty good for what it is, but I don't use it, I prefer actual models.

I'd rather use models with a good snapping system in place, what we could really use which would help with placement tremendously is two things, firstly the ability to switch between a local pivot point (the meshes origin) and a global pivot point (center of geometry), and secondly more snapping options, at the very least on top of the two we have, a vertex snapping option where we can drag a vertex on one model and snap it to a vertex on another model.

I'd also like to see a set of primitives that can be scaled, adjusted and textured from within the editor.

Honestly EBE wasn't particularly good. Back at the start of the EBE development I mentioned to lee to have a look at the way Cube 2: Sauerbraten does things, it isn't super complex and allows for a little more editing, lee was quite stubborn is his ways as he said he had no intention of creating a model editor in gameguru.

However EBE simply doesn't measure up to 2020, I would much, much much much rather have the old FPScreator FPS segments back then continue with EBE, it was simpler and easier to use and could construct level in a fraction of the time it would have taken with EBE. EBE is suited to creating singular buildings and sure you could make a level out of the parts, it wasn't particularly good at it.

Since we are now able to create proper indoor levels thanks to much improved graphics engine and lighting system, EBE is essentially a relic from yesteryear that needs updating, or put in the trash can.

With the cube 2 engine it doesn't support complex shapes rather basic cube editing and resizing the cubes as needed with the brushes provided much like creating the terrain in max and classic. Max already has the painting multiple terrain and grass textures down to a T.

I am not saying a new editor should have convex and concave editing, but we could do a lot better and have better support for creating indoor levels now. Some thing like the cube 2 system will provide more freedom, while still keeping things simple and since you are using cubes keep the polygon count low.

My dream vote would be a cube 2 like system, my ideal comprise would be an updated FPScreator segment editor as that will allow various shapes and designs and allow creating far more complex environments on the cheap and the segment editor was so easy to use, which still fits into the max theme, of easy game making.

I have not used, but I have seen the Building creator in s2engine, how about something like that Lee, I have the S2 engine but never really used it as its not as intuitive as GG.

As far as I am aware it does create the inside of the buildings, only the building shell, which would be a step backwards from EBE

I have attempted several times in classic to use the EBE and find the room height way too low and un realistic, and the fact that everything is created using blocks. Have recently found a maximum block to material limit on the EBE, ( which is being sorted for next update ). I would like to have seen a building creator editor with different types of buildings apartment blocks with flat or sloped roof etc. The ability to CSG punch holes was a really neat feature I liked in FPSC, it would fit the EBE editor too, especially for windows and doors even floors for stair cases or chimneys.

It is ok for really basic stuff, but nothing much else. being able to create full PBR textures with EBE would be nice too. ( missed the "be" from "...be nice too.")

Yes, bring back CSG, segments. I cannot understand why this feature was never added. I guess at the time with the dreaded feature voting board, that was never a priority to anyone in the community otherwise it would have materialised. You got an EBE though cos you all wante that hmmmm.... yeah you got what ya wanted and not what was really needed.... oops

yes Im in xxxx mood today.

@Wolf - ah ok I didn't realise that, big limitation, but if the interiors could be created as well, now that would be a classy thing to have in Max. I would imagine very difficult to code, i'm no coder at all.

i personally do not use it much, i spent a while attempting an isometric zombiecide game but that was it. however there will be people who use it especially new users who can not model so it has its place, as to how complex, im not sure how much more you can add, maybe a warp wall to make it less clinical, i go out of the way to add irregularity to my houses and dungeons, man in them days were good architects but limited and so i think that warp tool would be a good tool, a bit like smudge on paint programes. i prefer my modelling apps but EBE would be essential to new users.

I don't model so please include some sort of building maker / creator / editor!

I tried the EBE but found it a bit too clunky.

I preferred the old segment method as you could sculpt a multi-roomed building quickly. This, coupled with the EBE's ability to make a structure that could be moved around like an entity, as well as the EBE's ability to add / remove blocks and place doors / windows anywhere would be a step forward i think.

See i kind of agree with science boy and Madlad Designs.
if you use it it is really good. If you do not then its just a non requirement.
My thought would lean towards do not improve it, just make it reliable & stable.
Its good for what it is and very handy.

Just had a chat with the internal team covering the current Structure Editor and the general feeling is that to do a 'Building Editor' of high quality is a LOT of work, almost amounting to a whole project in itself. We looked at alternatives to how you could get buildings in your game, and we looked at the import option using such stores as SKETCHFAB and even third-party tools that create structures such as SKETCHUP. The last time I used SketchUp it was free, but now it seems there is a hefty subscription model in place:



Does anyone know of any third-party tools out there (ideally free) with which we could partner to hand-off the creation of buildings and structures? Ideally, the ones that produce high-quality building geometry and textures suitable for game engines.

For right now we have decided to keep this final decision open until we learn more about what options are available, so feel free to continue proposing third-party options and methods of importing assets to populate your game with structures.

Most use their own preferred modelling tool and the EBE was really only for very basics structures which it can still be used for. The Magic comes with how you detail the interiors of that.
Agreed though best shoved aside for now. Time better spent on other goodies

OldFlak....

Fpscreator segments it is a 1000 fold more flexible/ quicker and easier to use.Any reason why why we can't have that back ?
I am going to have a little rant, it isn't going to be pleasant but needs to be said.

All this work is going on improving the UI and functionality, graphics engine, particles, textures, grass and being more flexible, and goal to avoid getting bad reviews on steam, sticking with some thing that creates 4 x 4 block rooms ideal isn't going to end well again for steam reviews I can pretty much promise that. You want to attract people to the engine, this isn't going to attract people it will more likely push them away.

Game engines have come a long long long way it isn't really even remotely what it use to be 15 years ago where a 4x 4 room would be completely accecptable, also the main reason why game guru has been the driving force behind me creating entities for creating indoor levels especially with gameguru classic as 4x4 simply does cut it any more, there is no flexibility with it, it takes ages to create any useful and even with classic it stood out like a sore thumb graphically and sure you could create wall curves to deal with the endless flat square corners but that entirely defeats the purpose of EBE you might as well just create your entire structure in a 3d.

With segments you could do a array of different shapes and designs, different sized windows, ramps and change textures, with ebe your windows need to be pretty spot on if its dimensions or else you end up with gaps ect. Because of that every thing you create ends up 4x4 it is symmetrical, the fundamental design theory for any game is to add asymmetry and imperfections and hide as much of the symmetry you can, in the case of gameguru it stands out as a sore thumb and doesn't look particularly good.

The end result is getting a bad rep for something that could have been avoided, and while it might be good for a few users I bet there is more users wanting to do a little more then a 4x4 room.There is really not much use for it, as it is time consuming, lacks flexibility and not much use for it.

I know it is a little harsh but this is how I feel about it, it had potential however it no longer fits in with the goal of max and more then likely going to pick up flack for that, take two steps forward with the terrain and graphics, grass only to take two steps back with the ebe, there is no way to create proper indoor level with it, even thought now with proper indoor lighting and graphics I am left completely dumbfounded that ebe would be considered good enough, it isn't by a long shot.Not taking indoor levels seriously enough is going to cost TGC big time again.

Really disappointed

The FPS creator FPS segments were pretty good , should have been carries over to Guru & Max .

Bring it back , please .

Lance

Bring Back FPS segments it is the way forward not backwards

I use the EBE a lot. I created 1 level of a 2 floor house with my own textures and it looks very good in GGClassic (done in preparation for Max).
So for me personally, you could leave it as it is in Max. And if someone wants something more advance, they could use another tool. I personally use Asset Forge also.
But keep the default one in Max please.
Thanks

Totally agree with Wizard of id, EBE is currently a half-baked, unfinished, proof-of-concept that almost no one uses because it does very little. Leaving in such a feature is detrimental to Max, especially given you literally already coded the same system but better in FPS Creator 15 years ago! It's almost better to not have EBE in Max at all if you're not going to bother fixing it.

If I wanted to build a simple building to test textures in Game Guru, would I use EBE? Nope; I'd fire up FPSC, make the building in that, then use BOTR's AutoWelder to import the building from FPSC into GG as an entity. That should tell you something. I'd have far more flexibility over the geometry of the walls, and the exact dimensions of CSG-cut doorways and windows than EBE currently offers.

AE

Isnt that really a different engine though and segments were all part of its coding, construction and integration.
I dont think its a simple case of carrying it over. Would it not just turn out to be FPS Creator again ?

Bin it , job done

Dave

I don't know if you were here in the days on fpscreator, it is an entirely different beast.Fpscreator relied entirely on fps segments to create a level, there was no terrain system, and while you could import your own entity terrain due to the collision system used any thing larger then a 100 x 100 x 5 cube collision for AI would fail.

Pretty much every thing revolved around the segments, that includes placement of entities that forms part of the building like girders. We even had wall snapping of decals and light sources and a special icon and arrow which would show which direction it would snap.

We got a particle system that could take a normal decal and create moving fog, laser beams, force fields you name, take a fire decal and create decent smoke, basically edit the setting of the particles to create a unique particle each and every time, you edit the height, width speed and duration of the particles that rivaled most triple A games of the time.

The shader system was flexible that you could add your own shaders and people added some great and unique shaders that you could use.
We had working with windows if you shoot them they would break into a thousand pieces thanks to the decal animation for that.

Had a working water system while it couldn't be edited as well as gameguru it was more open and could be linked to scripts to make it rise based on timers or triggers.

The lighting system created a 100 fold better shadows.

Had a decent flash light.

you simply had to select the levels when you want to build a game and it would compile all the assets and level under a single exe none of this add a script at the end of a level and copy the next levels assets over.

While gameguru finally got rid of nullspace and gave us a terrain system, it did so at great expense of what made fpscreator at time good, particles,indoor lighting, customs shaders, windows and mostly importantly indoor levels.

Even the bloom was better in fpscreator, for a long time the graphics in x10 was better then gameguru and in many regards still better then the pbr shader we have right now which greatly let down by the inferior lighting system gameguru has, it doesnt do pbr shader justice not in the least.

We continually hear that TGC wants to do things right with max, how about listening to the community veterans that have used your software for over a decade and actually have to use the software, it rare that TGC ideals line up with what users want and need, some thing as simple as particles or proper windows was never addressed in over 6 years.We aren't asking for much nor impossible things either, sure at times requests have been outside of the scope of what the software could to do or handle.

So we get a max that is able to handle in door scenes and again it is being shunned, I do not understand the poor reasoning behind, sure I am able to create my own indoor assets as well as sell them to the community, but I am pretty much the only one here that is creating interesting level assets that the community can use for their games.This led to the creation and inspiration of various model packs I created over the years, like death valley and cold war dlc, this has taken many, many years of experience, patience and dedication, while there are users that have created similar corridors not all of them are freely sharing and a bucket load more users aren't even able to model their own.

So no I don't take this lightly, it is gross oversight if they are just going to focus on outdoor scenery again.

Why are you even mentioning Sketchfab? Sketchfab is not a place to create models of any sort, let alone buildings. It's a place for 3D artists to upload and showcase their 3D models. It has nothing to do with creating buildings nor is there any software there for creating buildings or anything like that at all.

Sketchup hasn't been free for years. You don't need to emulate it or support it. It creates models and can export them. So, all you'd really need to do is make sure that one of Sketchup's export formats is supported via Assimp in MAX.

Instead of trying to create a 3D modeling program inside of MAX, just enhance MAX to work better with 3D models and how the end-user places them in the scene. Add proper snapping like every other 3D modeling and 3D game editor has. This will ensure that entities brought into MAX can be easily placed where needed/wanted by the end-user.

If you want to make EBE better, then make it more like the level editor that was in FPS Creator. It allowed you to use segments of detailed 3D walls, corners, floors, etc. to quickly put together levels. If you don't want to have something like that in MAX, then enhance the way things are placed in MAX itself and scrap EBE. For example, one of the nice things about EBE is being able to quickly layout some walls. So, instead of EBE, have a key that can be pressed when placing an entity in your scene that allows you to draw out a straight line and entities are placed all along that line, snapping to the end of each other to form a wall or a floor or whatever the entity has been designed for. How each piece snaps together could be based on actual snapping in the editor, etc. In other words, if you make good ways for the end-user to quickly lay down pieces to create levels, there's no need for EBE.

I used it in the later days but no i was not around when it was in full flow but relying entirely on fps segments was what i was kind of referring to. I assumed Modules ( much like yours ) gave a far better option for creators in an outdoor environment engine rather than an indoor one with no real exterior to work with . Whether any kind of structure editor is in Max or not to me does not matter personally as im just thinking of Max as another product rather than an extension of GameGuru.

While the modular assets I create have shapes that the standard fps segments didn't have, I did create several models packs specific to the fpscreator without floors due to the null space you basically just place the objects as you do now I have some YouTube videos showcasing this.

As a result of taking the segments to another level I was able to create none standard segments of all shapes and sizes, additionally the segments allowed adding several pieces, so for example you could have a cold war curve with all the trimmings in a single fps segments instead of having to place several layers like you do now.So no it wouldn't be fpscreator as it is way different, with the addition of the terrain and various things even if you were to add the fpsc segments it will be uniquely different.

I will post some videos of what I did with the segments back in the day, you might find it pleasantly surprising that you can do way more the the standard segments then the default stock segments.

I would drop the way I do things now in a heart beat to have segments as you could do so much more so much easier and have essentially a composite entity some thing Lee said he would look at many, many, many times and never actually happening.

"I don't use it."
"I don't use it."
"I don't use it."
"I don't use it, I prefer actual models."
I use entities...
Entities are far more versatile and you can add more complex geometry....

RRRxxchhrrrchddbbggg! Let's stop right there. In similar fashion to the way
many people here ask for functionality to be built in (TEXT, Swimming, RPG, etc)
I am the one out of talent when it comes to making models in any 3d utility.

It just needs to be a little improved.
So... now I'm the one going to ask for TGC to help us make a little 3d imports!
Don't abandon it, I just think as a DLC to some hardy entrepreneur-- it would
be quite very nice if EBE was expanded (in similar fashion CC seems to be.)

This was all created with none standard segments all you had to do was paint the floors, had all the railings, walls, and every needed compiled into a single segments file, the snapping was perfect, entity collision perfect as you only had to worry about floors, which meant you could do a entire level in half the time it would take compare to now. The irony is that even now EBE can't compete with the segments in these videos, created several years ago and still holds up pretty decently.







This is game guru while it takes more time it has a lot more complex detail, not to say you can't do the same with an updated segment editor you will be able to create a segments with all the entities you see placed here into a single composite entity segment.

Looks like I spawned an entire discussion around FPSC Segments again. I think rather than TGC always re-inventing the wheel, what should be provided instead is assets that can be snapped together like in the video I provided and having some way where people can apply the textures to them and possible even in editor UV scaling.

With a system like that you won't need to provide an entire interior editor within the editor. You could essentially scrap the EBE system and just rely on the entity edit mode and just make sure that floor, walls, ceilings, door ways, interactive doors are provided as a base, with the ability for users to apply their own textures to them. That would replace the whole EBE system right there. You would however need to add the ability to "draw" the floors and walls on the grid modes with it stacking inside of each other. So that the process is just as fast as the EBE and even FPSC.

That's all you need to do to solve this problem in my eyes. Its also how the other engines handle it really. Though some of them also support texture assigning to mesh faces rather than the whole mesh. So you could even provide a hallway mesh and allow for people to still assign it a texture for floor, ceiling and walls.

Here is what I was doing before we got the EBE in Game Guru 4/5 years ago:
This example is using grid sized segments to create an interior.

I have to admit FPS segments does look pretty cool.

As others have said, I think improved control over entity positioning would go a long ways versus a dedicated (and likely limited) structure editor. I think these points would cover most use cases:
1. Improve entity positioning tools (snapping, pivot points, etc.).
2. Ensure AI can properly navigate structures built from entities.
3. Reintroduce a way to clip the tops of enclosed entity structures for better interior editing.
4. Introduce a concept similar to prefabs in FPSC where a selection of entities can be grouped together and positioned as a single unit, as well as having the ability to save the group to the entity library for easy reuse.

That's it! I think if the above points were addressed, most people would be perfectly happy with structure editing in GGM.

This.

The only thing that let the FPSC segments down was how difficult it was to place walls and doors etc. at 45-degree angles. Hence we ended up with a lot of very boxy level design full of right angles and rectangular rooms. It wasn't impossible to make interesting curved architecture by any means, just more challenging. In any case, EBE doesn't address that either, it's still based on the square grid. Better entity snapping would be awesome.

AE

I don't use EBE. I use SketchUp and Blender.
At the EBE Development, Lee got so much good tips and hints (sims, PlanetCoaster, PlanetZoo and more), not only from me. He ignored this systems and made all the own way. That's fully ok. But nothing for me to use. It is too much to figgle around long time, for simple things.
I'm sure it is good for real beginners. But you grew fast out of it.
The FPS Segments I liked too.

I strongly disagree, if you look at the segments I made had lots of curves and stuff added a various angles and levels, while it had to conform to the null space requirements of 100 x 100 you could add a multi level segment no issue, the only issue was, that it couldn't be a single mesh so you had to have walls separate from the ceilings and import the mesh parts one by one apply texture, shader and editing the settings to tell which type of segment it was ect.

Getting doors and windows at 45 degree angles wasn't hard either you would export the entity with the correct angle coordinates and if you weren't 100% sure you could always added a "guide mesh" for correct position, that said the segment creator would often crash.

Installed X10 the other day again because I was feeling nostalgic....

This is a DX10 shader so not even a PBR shader, normal bumping and still looks better then what gameguru can do with any shader they have, and this is due to the poor lighting system.Took this now quite surprised how well these walls still hold up today several years later.
I don't understand why they have thrown out the baby (indoor) with the bath water and just focused on outdoor scenes.

Maybe you could turn it into a more general geometry building tool, which we can use for structures or buildings or cubes or whatnot. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it'd still be the same cool alternative to plopping models down. I like the idea of having a level-builder that works in a grid system the way the structure editor does.

They should think about adding the segment editor as a standalone ($) for those who don't have FPSC and would like to use/have it . I still use it on a couple of things I am working on . wizard of id is correct about what you can do with it .

Lance

@Wizard of Id: I meant difficult for non-modellers. There was no facility to rotate a wall segment by 45-degrees inside FPSC, it either had to be an entity, or you had to do it in a modelling program. I also experimented with making curves and angled segments back in the day, but that was still pretty early on in my modelling days.

Your segments look great btw, and the X10 screenshots are just depressing with how much better they look compared to Game Guru Classic.

AE

Those are the stock scfi walls found in x10. I am sure they would look even better in Max with proper lighting and pbr shader. But it just goes to show just how poor gg classic lighting was for indoor scenes and in general. Sure you could create pretty awesome outdoor scenes with gameguru which wasn't possible with fpscreator or x10.

I should really get them into gg classic and max and compare side by side the rendering differences.

Hello
I personally think the builder we have is not to bad it just need more choices. I don't like the idea of always going out side of the Game Guru for creation. In my experience every one of the engines out there make this mistake they try to make things easier by trying to adapt to other software and it never works right, just look at a the problems Lee has had trying to make fbx work in Game Guru. I would personally like to see something that we can all use to make modals on the fly with out having to alter this and change that , and until you have that kind of ability you will never have easy game making . I mean do you really want to make something in blender or any other asset maker just to have use a converter change it then go to another program to fix the fixes . It's like trying to make a VW into a Dioblo. Sure it can be done but why . We need uniformity I don' t want to have to buy three thousand different programs just because a few people like to do things a certain way. I know a lot people haver there preferred choice but having a lot of choice is sometimes bad . A universal choice is better here is a example , I wanted to make my own people so Lee came up with Idea of making fuse compatible with Game Guru so I was like cool ,so I went and bought a new program to use learned how to use it and now its no longer being used or if it is I will have to learn how to change it .If I can figure it out at all . So now instead of making a game I'm trying to figure out to make it work . By the time I find everything I need to make the game Lee will go and change everything again. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
I will never get a game made at this rate.

i would like the ebe was going in the direction of sdk hammer and world editor

That's a totally different style Editor like Leadwerks. Not even sure you could incorporate anything like that ?
There is Mapscape that will do that and you can export the standalone models ... But its not great
Map Scape 3 ( if it ever gets released ) really looks cool and very much what your after.