AmenMoses on the team, nice one old man

Dave

God bless you ..Amen... ..and Lee of course to hire you

my GG Max faith is restored now... seriuously... thisis the best news i read in GG forums lastest days..

with Smallg and Eventually BoTR.. the really Dream team could get up..

but even with Amen Alone GGMAx future is really bright to me..

afraid not, i can only offer a very limited amount of time so i was just helping convert the scripts to the new system for the first round of testing when i had chance, the new UI and access it allows for scripts to be easily tweaked is cool though - it will open up the possibilities for non-coders to interact with shared scripts more easily for sure

Really cool.


I suspect that we will have to adapt our old personal scripts, so that they work with the new system as well.
I suppose many legacies lua commands will disappear.

You shouldn't or it wouldn't really be backward compatible.

synchro, good point.

I'm working on Physics additions at present, expect physlib.lua to be substantially bigger in the next release.

Oh, and they are for both GG and GG Max btw.

@AmenMoses;
Spawning of entities via script is included?
Lee basically promised this... I know what this sounds like,
but he said "Great idea. Put it on GitHub so we can remember."

I don't have any insider info on what Lee has planned, in fact I believe it's all research at the moment as the March build is taking priority, i.e. bug fixes, the April build, i.e. the first Max alpha will be the new GUI stuff.

After that Lee will probably want to concentrate on the big stuff, i.e. new renderer/terrain system/64 bit changes before deciding on which new features from GitHub can be included before a September release.

So bearing that in mind if you really want something badly enough getting it on GitHub and getting other people to add comments along the line of "I really want this too" will give you the best chance of seeing it become a reality.

The Physics stuff I'm working on has the advantage that it is in a completely isolated part of the code base so doesn't clash with anything Lee or Preben may be working on so it can be delivered whenever becomes convenient and is highly unlikely to cause any issues with existing functionality.

@AmenMoses : Thanks for pitching in, I would very much appreciate your input running up to September. As you say, the plan is Classic through March, plus some general housekeeping, then figure out what we want to deliver for the April Alpha build of MAX.

@All : Given the community comments so far (yes, it's 6:45AM, not slept yet and have a meeting at 9AM but had to read it all), it actually sounds like there are basically two camps, one camp that wants some version of GameGuru Classic that includes one or more of a feature mentioned in the last 7-years, and ranging in capability from a slightly improved version of what we have now all the way up to competing with the alternative game engines of today. And a second camp, which is happy to see Classic 'fixed and functional' and see an eventual shift to MAX as the newer technology comes along.

My geeky preference is the second one, as it means I get to work on new technology more, but I have stated (and am thinking about taking out a patent on the statement so I can collect royalties each time I say it), that for as long as there is a viable, vocal community who want to see Classic continue to be developed, and for as long as I have any say in what I develop, I intend to continue channeling resources into Classic development. The bugs are the easy part, they are recorded, listed and can be confirmed as complete. It's the non-bugs part that I think will take a year to sort out; first by making a comprehensive list everyone in Classic land can agree on (that's going to be fun), and then set out a plan to make it happen. The suggestion of just dropping Classic after the bugs have been fixed is not something I am considering, I need to do some community repair work, and for now, that means continuing the development of Classic. Whether anyone bothers to actually use Classic down the road is perhaps secondary to my commitment to doing the right thing, even if it slows down MAX development until our Classic community is happy.

And exactly that would be wrong if it endangers the rough "roadmap" presented to the pre-orders of Max.
The user confidence in "classic" is already shaken, to say the least, creating a similar limbo or even just significant delays for Max would be history repeating itself (as some users have already viewed GG as being such).

Everyone pre-ordering Max will expect a 100 % functional product with all features listed here:

https://www.game-guru.com/max

at the date given (in that case, September). If prolonged classic support and improvements endanger that goal, a cut has to be made (in my opinion).

Exactly, this is why I decided at last minute not to pre-order it. It is going to be either a full and polished product that worth the full price in which case I am more than happy to pay the full price or I am not interested at all. I'll wait till September.


You also stated GameGuru makes no profit and you keep it alive by taking resource from other products. So now you want to divide that already small resource in to two?
This is exactly the reason I decided to wait till September and also because you just left AGK Studio unfinished already. The fact you moved Preben from AGK Studio to GameGuru while GG makes no profit you say, makes me wondering then AGK Studio also makes no profit and maybe makes even less than GG that is why Preben is working on GG instead of finishing AGK Studio?
If that is the case I really can't see how could you develop 2 versions of the same product at the same time you can not honestly expect to be able to keep Max backward compatible forever, in order to move forward compatibility must break. Can implement a way to import from old to new but to make implementations of new product backward compatible with the old product makes no sense to me especially if you "make no profit" as you say. But it is up to you. I'll be waiting and see how it goes and honestly wish you good luck.

EDIT: Comment removed. Some might take what I say the wrong way.

I'm kind of just along for the road. Which ever way it goes.

Oh dear. Then, instead of just one camp of users frustrated at lack of bugfixes and developments, you're going to have two. It's inevitable that whilst you're working on one project, users of the other will be complaining.

When GameGuru [Reloaded] came along, how often did you supply bug fixes / enhancements to FPS Reloaded?

I probably wont be popular but here's my 2 cents ..

1 … First thing is Max … Right off the mark it should be based on " Free updates but paid Major Upgrades " could be in 18 months time or longer but does help fund Max making R&D a worthwhile task. This is pretty standard in software development these days.

2 … GameGuru I would like to see functioning, Stable and as bug free as possible with continued Bug fixes dealt with that crop up until its final demise but I personally myself am not really to bothered about new features being added.

3 … That's my opinion but of course there are those that cannot run or afford Max who will still want the features added which I can clearly understand their point of view.

The simple Truth is there is no Win Win scenario as opinions will constantly differ so yes its a really difficult situation right now but at least by considering implementing No 1 its avoiding the same Scenario in the future with Max ?

To be or no to be, that's the question.
The train of progress never stops, the question is if you want to be on board.
I wonder how many users would have paid $ 25 to fund a GG update that would include the same advantages that GGMax has?
Because that's just what I did, pay a GG upgrade called GGMax.

but i would pay even 50/60/70(i preordered max aswell) but for have a fully working engine like other engine has to offer ..I'm not talking about unity or unreal but other 2nd band engines like leadwerks, S2 and so on..

meantime i 'll continue my learning journey into Unreal Engine

Oh dear,
"there are those that cannot run or afford Max who will still want the features
added"
[ to Classic ] I presume...
Are we running a charity drive here? I don't want to be heartless, but I haven't
bought LeadWerks for example because of it's price. I would be one of those
currently with very very tight financial constraints, and still I don't mind getting
GGMAX when those constraints are less. Should we all donate to the less fortunate?
Okay, I better stop, but for a business to cater to the poor should be left to the
charities. And I love charities truly. 32 bit is sooo far behind the times that it's
really a hand-me-down product to keep alive Classic. So in reality except for a
learning tool, it's kinda a disfavor to give it away to those with real creation plans.
I toast to the development of GGMAX, and hope to see features added to it that
Classic never received-- even the little tiny ones in scripting that Classic should have
gotten already-- but it is what it is...

After all that-- what am I saying? Too bad Classic doesn't have a few more needy
features, but since it doesn't and since 64 bit is coming out, and a refreshed GUI,
etc, then don't put too much effort into keeping Classic alive. Put 90% of the effort
into making MAX a STABLE GAME CREATOR-- with all those needy features added.

@GubbyBlips
You have a crafty way of quoting a bit of a sentence to turn it into something completely different.
This was the actual sentence

No one is a charity case on this board.

Sorry, sometimes I don't even need to post things-- that's true.
I guess I sound like a big grouch. I'll claim mid life crisis...
Not an attack on you, just stating my 2cents as well- that the effort is not
put into something that sounds (could be wrong) but sounds like it might
be destined to be all but replaced shortly anyhow. GG could have several
little tweaks and additions, I wish it had them already, and I don't think it
will be getting them, so should it slow up the big new and improved GG?
Not much.
Next, having the community give feedback on GGMax development--
that seems to be a thing of the past also, and that's unfortunate. Obviously
Max isn't here yet, but maybe one day there will be an idea forum (not a
voting board!) But just an idea forum if the developers are so inclined to hear.

Looks like it is finally sinking in...

GameGuru development came to an almost complete standstill over the past two years and suddenly you got two to work on. Both time and money are short and any new software development will depend heavily on promoting it to existing and new users as a worthwhile upgrade.
I don't know with any certainty how many users hang out here and never post or even how many may have purchased GG and dropped off by now. All you got to go on is this board and Discord and it isn't exactly overrun with new names. This doesn't mean they aren't around or that there isn't a fair number who simply don't care one way or the other.
Anyone can say "I will do the right thing" but that in itself might not be a promise that is viable. Painting yourself into a corner when you should stop asking for opinions on what would be an acceptable level of finish to GG while trying to achieve an acceptable level for release and continuation of Max is a serious gaff.

i can't help but think if you had made some major bug fixes to GameGuru and completed some of those half finished features then announced a whole new upgrade, you would have had a better chance of meeting both goals of getting people on board with it and see a more positive promotion for both products.
Word of mouth is TGC's most valuable advertising tool but when you got so few active users on these forums (the same users and a very small slice of the demographic that actually post) then you will only get a very small idea of how you should progress with this. This one isn't for anyone but yourself to work out since only you can decide whats possible and what isn't. The problems arise when you get the idea that something is possible when it isn't. No offense meant but I am going to use the term 'delusional' here, I never say something can be done easily or even achievable with difficulty since there is always something goes wrong to change it or we bite off more than we can chew.
So a tentative "I'll do my best" is all you can really offer which may or may not satisfy most users.
Customer trust in your product is paramount for both old and new.

Around here you are merely preaching to the converted and though it might be the best place to get the opinion you want to hear it isn't really representative of how the majority of your users may think.

@Lee Bamber,

Please excuse me for not posting earlier, and thanks for the email concerning any tweaks I could add to GGC, however.
As there seems to be a little confusion and your request users for input/links here we go and maybe if by chance you have over looked these, just bringing to your attention two posts that may* have caused some concerns and are still visible today by customers.


During the GG launch there was some concern during 2015, some came on board while others parted ways or stayed with fpsc. The following was posted.

KeithC (Feb 2015) *sorry Keith, I know you wouldn't give out false information, just reference.
Some people are reportedly a bit confused with the latest move by TGC; concerning the fate of FPSCreator: ReLoaded. In order to address that; here is the information on the change, in a nutshell.

Game Guru is indeed FPSCreator: ReLoaded; now re-branded (though still in Beta). Game Guru's ultimate aim, is to provide more than just a platform for a first-person shooter experience. In the future, it will also allow for creation of 3rd-person Games, Real-Time Strategy Games, Driving/Racing Games, Puzzle Games, Horror Games, Fantasy Games, Children's Games, etc..

Steam announcements (April 2015) - No Author, though links reference to your defunct blog.
You can read all about the new additions at the end of this bulletin, but we'd like to report on some feedback from Lee regarding some requests for a 'roadmap'. We asked him to layout some of the plans for the future and to give you all an idea of the direction we intend to take GameGuru

Lee reported last week in his blog:

"Right now my road map is to add a third person control system, improve and extend the character AI, add a simple inventory system, player progression statistics, character conversation engine and a better way to associate entity logic (i.e. key + door). Sprinkled in all that is the daily grind to fix issues as they occur which slows down the addition of the new stuff. As for an estimate how long this will take, I would guess a date sometime in June, with many builds released as each feature is added.

The longer term road map includes improvements to the game itself such as better explosions, fire, smoke, particle effects and debris, a constant stream of new content both in the core product and through the store and DLCs, the addition of big features such as swimming and underwater action, vehicles, destruction system, new kinds of weapons and player abilities, composite entities so several entities can club together to form a single larger entity and the list of ‘definitely going to do’ goes on. We then stray into the ‘might do’ list which includes replacing the light mapper with something that runs in the background all the time, eliminating the delay between clicking test game and playing the game, optimizing the media when saving a standalone executable, vehicles that fly, underground and cave systems that can cut through the terrain, a water pools system for different water bodies at different heights in the landscape, weather systems, day and night cycle, third party plug-in system tied with LUA, engine optimizations and load time reductions. The longest road-map then extends into supporting more platforms and form factors, both desktop and portable devices. Along the way we may also be distracted by cool technology like Virtual Reality, Hands-Free control systems, dedicated multi-monitor support such as EyeFinity and as yet undiscovered gaming hardware."

Just in case you miss placed this Road Map or it was done on the fly. I don't really see anything here, apart from a 'might do' list.
Unless you count some minor things, most are achievable with some work by the end user, and have been showcased by some of the talented user base here.

My suggestion moving forward, and I hope you consider a possible plan of attack now that people have invested in GGM annouement.
March to April - GGC bug fixes *as planned.
April - GGM alpha (show the new features added) *as planned.
April to Sep - GGM 64bit development, terrain, rendering or what ever you can muster to get GGM on the engine wiki list.
Sep onwards - once a stable build of GGM is live, then move into classic updates *if required of course, engage on the scene.

I know you got recognition for Intel RealSense, lets see what you can do for GGM moving into 2020. Once you have a stable build for the user base (modelers, level designers, hobbyist's or that select bunch that want to see if they can make a project viable for profit) then
jump back into GG classic, one you will have a better understand of what is working and what is not, and two, lots of users do not understand 32bit Address Space and wonder why their game crashes or doesnt work at all. show the people what you can do on that keyboard. All the best.

I've been saying as much since Max was first announced. Still, we are where we are I guess...



That's just it though, they shouldn't have to. We're blessed with some very talented and passionate users around here coming up with workarounds for many of these features, but that's all they are; workarounds to features that should just work in Game Guru already.
Especially as this is a product aimed at children, hobbyists, and first-timers.
Especially as the developer said the end-goal was to implement this stuff.

It's depressing reading that list of proposed features and seeing how few actually made it in. And those that did were often unfinished or lacking in some way.

Having said all that, the time for adding significant features to Game Guru classic is over. Bug fixes, yes. Improvements to existing features, potentially. But, ultimately, for Max to succeed it needs to have the lion's share of resource ploughed into it.

Lee, you will not rebuild trust in the community by hastily adding features into classic you mentioned in passing 5 years ago.
You will only rebuild trust by delivering a product that delivers on its promises, and does so in a way that is intuitive for beginners and non-coders. That's who this engine is aimed at after all. The new character creator looks like a good step in the right direction. The proposed 'game pack' DLCs are another great idea. Even if Max can only do one thing , it needs to do it well. No unfinished features, no unintuitive handling, and no more 2 year gaps in development.

AE

none of them.. at least these could be added to MAX..

Given that what we've seen so far is front-end redesign and what we've heard is 'new terrain', 'new rendering' I'd say we're in pretty much the same place we were when FPSC Reloaded died. Lee has stated that he's not going to do anything about anything that can already be done with lua, so I think expecting any changes to meet the hopes of the non-scripters/non-modellers who bought into GG is setting yourself up for more disappointment.

sure but all mentioned features should be on GG yet(since were on GG roadmap) so if GG will updated to Max with these features in Max should have these features too.... transitive propriety

I know that Max will never be what Reloaded should be and even if i preordered it i'm learning unreal

In Lee's defence, I think he is playing it safe when saying 'there are no plans to... etc etc', because if he does say he plans to do such and such, he will get bombarded with more aggro should some of these promised things not get added due to time constraints etc.
Give the guy a break.

i think the same.. but rememeber .. no one forced it to write what he wrote and many of us purchased the product based on promised roadmpa features taht never come...

not my case since I preorderd max (as i gold pedged relaoded at the time) instantly but for one time would to see a complete and finite product since i think that GG if correclty supported could be the third place in the world developer market ..after unity and unreal..even before cryengine ( no about capabilties but about real dev possiblity to make a good and decent game with the engine)

That was my point exactly.

I can't imagine what it has to be, to be among those who want the features of unity / unreal but without abandoning the easy game maker.
I think that if you want something more complex and that it approaches as much as possible even triple A, you will have to get your hands dirty.
Mr Lee as they said before, your best move is to provide users with a game engine that meets expectations.
You do not try to cover more than you can do.
Do not make promises that you cannot keep, and especially if the user has to carry out operations via LUA, as is the case of the conversation system, provide the user with the necessary lua commands to carry it out. Remember that without the necessary lua commands, there are no workarounds.

Hi mate.. if you were referring to me it's not my case.. i dont pretend to have unity/unreal features into gg and is not a problem for my to get my hands dirty with code.. i proved tomyself that i'm able to code a game from scratch in unity with c# (even iwth advance features like inventory, weapon system, interactions, water/underwater system and so on) and i'm proud of that

like you correctly wrote i expect a game engine that meets the expectations and mine are not AAA ones about GGMax but waht i would are complete features and especially lua commands and documentations about them.. other than that i'll be okay
e.g.
1- i dont want and compelte inventory system but a base to start from and expand modify and use as base template to learn,,
2- i dont want a complete day/night cycle and weather system but the commands and the possbility to create them and make them fully working without restricions.. and so on..

and all documented with pratical examples

by my side i'm learning unreal since i like to try new things and instead to mess with GG atm and all its bugs i prefer to concentrate my little time into something could give me some tangible resutls on the long term...

said that.. lomg live to Lee and GGMax.. we all hope

"Game Guru's ultimate aim, is to provide more than just a platform for a first-person shooter experience. In the future, it will also allow for creation of 3rd-person Games, Real-Time Strategy Games, Driving/Racing Games, Puzzle Games, Horror Games, Fantasy Games, Children's Games, etc.."

So... which of these are not possible already??
All possible now, though quite wonky @ 32 bit 'walking on egg shells' engine
current GGClassic is.

64 bit + Standalone solid as steel (solid as Testing the map) will help it even
that much more. When you ask for Lee/ TGC to make an engine for you- to
make your own specific game... that's when the games become rigid copied
clones of each other. So to be flexible, CODING IS REQUIRED!

But if I was to review GG right now on Steam (been holding off for over a year)
then I would say GG is a FPS level creator, with medieval, Gothic, war-torn, grungy,
apocalyptic assets in the models folders, even on the STORE -- and not much else
(Just a few collections) here and there on the store-- but primarily Zombified,
grungy and bloody fighting/ FPS content!! That's depressing to me, even though
I've spent a few hundred on the store. But it doesn't have to be that way.

There are now some DLC's that offer a *little* variety.
Any kind of model can be created and placed in GG. A little more scripting
functions aimed at these various game types, and we would be set! It's all there
now, just not that obvious, and what is there could use some help/ expansion.

Real-Time Strategy Games: Find me someone who has made an RTS with Game Guru - I'd really love to see it.
Driving/Racing Games: Driveable vehicles are just about possible thanks to workarounds developed by the community, there's no in-engine support for this.

Saying something is possible is not the same as saying it is achievable.

Why are people suddenly pinning all of Game Guru's shortcomings on it being 32-bit? Half Life 2 was 32-bit and has a great physics engine, lip-syncing characters, dynamic lighting, vehicles, big maps, projection textures...and it was released 16 years ago when most graphics card had megabytes of video memory, not gigabytes.

AE

since I bought game guru, I am waiting to be able to play with third person and to be able to import my characters and animations but I see that it is very limited to be able to import our characters and very little information about it, I like game guru a lot and I do not want to abandon it but when living in a third world country the possibilities of buying ggm are more difficult what for some are 50 usd for me they are 1000 mxn

"Find me someone who has made an RTS with Game Guru."
That is a complex one there, it would be much easier with a whole team
of coders, and it would appear that the people who come here primarily
aren't coders.

I am no model creator- and just a few hours ago I complained about the state
of affairs of the models in the stock GG, DLC's and store!!
So it's all relative to your perspective-- I'm not a modeler- so I want someone
else to model for me.
There's plenty that could be added to the in- situ script libraries that would help
people code all these effects (as you mentioned). I am working on a simple
resource gathering experiment (yeah very cheesy now), but it could theoretically
develop further.

32 bit- I'm sure you're on to something there, AE. Perhaps 32 bit is usually
adequate, but it seems like every week or so there's a complaint about Standalone
glitches that have slowed or broken someone's project. Maybe it's not the
memory, but maybe it's the Standalone filing system itself.
There was a lengthy discussion on fixing Standalone issues by freeing up memory-
so I was under the impression that doubling the memory available to GG would
help those projects along.

What they did recently (in the engine) was just let the memory reset each level.

And.... I can not recommend to use this function, to free the mem after each level.
I used it and the result was that in the next levels entities were missing.

Isn't there a way to exempt items from being removed when memory is cleared between levels?
I take it that these are items collected by the player such as ammo guns and other inventory?

I had missing buildings, boxes, trees, fence, barrels... nothing the player collects.

RTS is possible in GG, however getting the mouse on the 2D layer to interact and read from the 3D layer is a bit of an annoyance when using perspectives beyond absolute top down. If you have a love for math its possible to create a solid working formula for it. Amen has certainly made more progress than I in this regard. It should be noted that GG never stated that it was designed for simultaneous multiple controlled characters. However it is possible; in fact pretty easyh with a bit of LUA. Also the whole point of including LUA scripting for GG was so that we could make any game type we really wanted.

Drivable cars is possible. I was able to knock something off with ease early on with very few lines of code:




I would never expect a 3D game engine to have drivable vehicles as an in-game supported feature. Even Unity and Unreal that have them as assets, have them combined with scripted events with models no different than GG really. Only difference is, there isn't a stock script there. However the process is the same.

Also TGC provided a tutorial:



I believe the whole "no coding required" situation we got going on for Game Guru and Game Guru Max suggests that absolutely everything can be done without coding. This is actually not true. In reality, GG is based off of the original First Person Shooter Creator and it was always designed around FPS game play styles. If you are looking to do anything more than that, you actually will need to learn coding. Despite the tagline.

Ive been considering doing tutorials. Maybe when i get some free time.

So that line should be removed because the base for creating anything other than an fps level is absent.




But isn't that the aim of clearing memory before the next level is loaded and thus also the required entities/scripts for that level?

Missing entities during the gameplay? I don't think so

With level clearing all memory, it would also create the need for the designer
to come up with their own <saving to a hard file> script, all the necessary data
that would want to be passed on to the next level-- which might be a little
stinker for most of us. This was also discussed recently, so the technique has
been offered- if we wish to integrate that in our studies. Things like this (and
menu design) would probably be more useful as an in-engine/GUI component.

Adding... since there's this https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/221611?page=1#msg2627594

@MooKai - were you using reset memory or reset levels?

The memory reset clears out texture usage and should not be used if many textures are present across levels. The restart between levels should be used for a full refresh of GG before level loads - think that is the option you would be wanting and works fine for me.

Cheers.

Sorry if I missed these posts, but will Gameguru Max support Screen Resolution Display and mouse sensitivy settings? also FOV setting that doesn't change after you change levels?

I used this in the settings.ini

standalonefreememorybetweenlevels=0 (or 1 for active)

If I set it to 1 then in the later levels I had missing buildings, barrels etc...
If I set it to 0 then the game crashed in the later levers... (out of mem.)
So I had no other choice to remove a lot of small models, anyway I had to reduce the amount of models for more fps

So I can not recommend to use this feature.

No indeed, i thought this setting would clear all memory except for game and player stats but as Cybernescence says, it deletes textures from previous levels.

Allowfragmentation =2 in the setup.ini should be the setting to reset levels i think.

game is now optimized without that setting and is running fine with a nice framerate

Allowfragmentation =2 ..... I will try that next time.

Episode 5 of the sneak peak is out ...

That is a thousand percent improvement, fantastic Lee.

Should really re-post that in its own thread (since all the others had their own thread). It would allow us to talk about revealed features from each sneak peak a bit better, me thinks.