Product Chat / 100 CHARACTER PACK Idea

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 15th Jul 2019 17:06
@danieleman : Thanks for the upvote, looks like the AY's have it, but we will keep this conversation going until I have my management meeting later this week when the decision will be made.

@JackalHead : Can you send me a YouTube link which shows off the Copper Cube system you mentioned? Interested to see how you use your own models here (are you an artist?)
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Trollbae
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Posted: 15th Jul 2019 22:20
Love the idea!!!
Id love to see something like this added but theres already something similar, they could just improve that, it would allow alot more functionality.

The forgotten character creator, a currently buggy editor, but if they updated that and implemented said scripts it would be alot better as it would allow for fuller customisation, BUT then for the DLC they could sell more components for the character creator, make it more like
"create a sim".

As for scripts i'd love to see a disperse from gunfire script, it would allow for lots
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MooKai
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Posted: 16th Jul 2019 00:00
we need some hot bikini babes...
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Flatlander
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Posted: 18th Jul 2019 23:18 Edited at: 18th Jul 2019 23:19
According to Lee in another thread, he's indicating that this project is dead? I was sure looking forward to those 100 characters with scripts included.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 18th Jul 2019 23:22 Edited at: 18th Jul 2019 23:22
Really ..
Where ?
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Ratall
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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 10:08 Edited at: 19th Jul 2019 10:15
here ->https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/220916#msg2618036 is the only mention of not doing the 100 character set in another thread I could find. But it does not say it will not be done just that some want Lee to do the character creator update instead.
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Belidos
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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 10:42
Yup, Ratail is right. He did not say it was scrapped, he mentioned that people are suggesting updating the character creator instead.

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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 11:16
I didn't get the impression Lee was keen on doing the character kit right now going by that post.
Pretty sure the 100 characters is still a go.
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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 11:19
i am all still for the 100 Character pack.
its just i wanted to have someone in the meantime to wright us some talking animation scrips.
Rely hope the Character pack are still going forward.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 12:15
I have had my management meeting and we agreed there is plenty of upvotes for the 100 character pack. The next stage is for me to create a few samples to show the quality before we commit to doing a hundred of them, we don't need any more half-baked content Happy to share these when they are complete!
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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 13:23
Thank you Lee.
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Flatlander
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Posted: 19th Jul 2019 14:07
Whoops, my old brain must have misunderstood. Thanks, Lee, looking forward to trying out those sample characters.
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 03:26
I'm glad to hear the Crowd Character pack is voted up and activated!

I did mention-- only for the sake of variety and creativity that the
Character Creator had great potential, and it does, but there are
the bugs that come associated with it if those are not addressed
at time of expanding it. I hope a variety of animations are there.
A bonus would be if 3rd person works well with these new ones.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 13:04
I think the basic problem with the 'Character Creator' is that it's not a patch on the kind of customizability you can do to AAA game characters these days, and the expectation will be to have something of that caliber (which is a full-time job for a few coders and artists over a year or so). In many ways, it would be better to not have it at all, but I am not sure sneaking it out of a future update would go unnoticed

@All: Do you think it's a good idea to remove the Character Creator from the next update and put it on a private dev branch until it is 'fully-baked' and has the same level of customizability of, say, GTA5? We are already doing this with VR and Multiplayer, and moving it to a separate branch also means fewer bugs and 'missing functionality' in the core product for new users. Or do you find it useful despite the limitations?
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granada
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 13:25 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 14:41

Quote: "@All: Do you think it's a good idea to remove the Character Creator from the next update and put it on a private dev branch until it is 'fully-baked' "


Sounds like a good idea to me Lee

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shivers
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 14:23
hello
I hope that I have not offend you Lee if I have I'm sorry that was not my intention. I just love game guru and really feel that at one time it was such a good idea and I have been waiting so long for game guru to be finished. I'm not getting any younger and it seems like years are passing fast and I'm not sure how much longer I can wait before I might have to decide to scrap game making altogether. At one time I thought game guru would be a break through all the other engines have a big learning curve I really thought that game guru would do most the heavy lifting for me and many ways it has done that thank you for that Maybe half baked wasn't the best word to use its hard to know how people will take what a person types . I also want to thank you for the new update it seems like game guru loads a lot faster didn't know it could do that lol
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3com
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 17:03
Quote: "@All: Do you think it's a good idea to remove the Character Creator from the next update and put it on a private dev branch until it is 'fully-baked' "
Yes sir.
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 18:55
CC left there or removed? -- doesn't seem to make a difference unless
people are trying to use it and can't -- I suppose that's the question.
But keep improving and expanding it -- definitely.

I tried CC about 2-3 times and only once seriously. I don't touch it anymore
as it doesn't seem very useful as it sits. Amazing concept for sure, but not
quit complete and ready. Toss it out forever? No way!
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Mr Love
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 22:19 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 22:22
I dont mind if You remove Character Creator totally and forever. We all have FUSE and MakeHuman plus many others. Another thing I was thinking about, what about a better "Talk-loop animation", I know it wont be like lipsync, but with some .lua scripting You can make it look pretty good. Its better to talk to a Character Who moves the lips in a loop, and mimic with His/Her arms, than talking with a Person Who doesnt move the lips at all. These background Characters usally says very short sentences anyways, but courld work for longer conversations as well, it wourlnt take long to make such an animation either...
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 22:40 Edited at: 20th Jul 2019 22:44
Sure for 500 bucks
Now what could we use that for
J/K
Seriously though sure you could take it out . Although I voted for it to stay last time I haven't seen it used that much and it still has some issues that could be put on the back burner.

Not the EBE though … Please fix that
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MXS
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 22:51
Yes take it out of the engine and replace the scifi characters DBO files with X files.
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Posted: 20th Jul 2019 23:28
Quote: "I dont mind if You remove Character Creator totally and forever. We all have FUSE and MakeHuman plus many others."

not all of us have what you say, and not all have 14 years experiance to say that.

So yes Lee if you can give us something better in the place of CC and that can work just as easy for the average user then its fine , otherwise whats the use of taking it out just because it does not work 100% and then replaced it with something that the average new users are going to battle with to get characters in to GG whats the point then.
So hopefully we will get something that work better and does not need one to be an modeling gurru to be able to work with it

Thank you
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Ratall
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 01:01
@Lee
We need to either have a working Character creator or a robust and functioning import system.

If you fix character creator, you will be sticking with the concept of GG being an easy game creator.


If you get the importer working robustly and producing reasonable error messages so we can see what is going wrong rather than have to guess. You will be make it easier to use custom content and move GG away from being seem as cookie cutter development system to easy entry system into serious game development.

If you do neither you may as well move it back to the games catagory because no-one will take it seriously as either an easy games system or a gateway to developing serious games.
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DVader
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 21:01
Why remove it? I for one use it on occasion, it makes for a good way to get characters in with a bit of variety, but of similar theme. Maybe there's issues, maybe it isn't a Fallout 4 quality, but it's still useful, even if only prototyping an idea. I would also imagine that it is more efficient memory wise, to have 10 CC NPC's with different heads than to have 10 individual models.

Even with an addition of 100 new characters, that sort of variety would seriously eat into the count. I may want 10 or more soldiers in a level who you interact with. I'd prefer them to at least look a little different to one another. I think CC does this reasonably at the moment, even if you don't get into customising face textures etc. I have noticed a little weird banding on them in the latest release for some reason though...

Iron out the bugs when you can. Maybe put out a decent tutorial as to how to create our own CC parts. I say yes to the pack, as you can never have enough characters But I would equally like more choice with CC parts. Not radically update CC, just add some media!

Also as far as the pack goes and people asking for speech and such. Maybe some extra animations would be nice. It wouldn't render the old stuff obsolete, just give a few more anims to the new characters. Melee for instance could certainly do with a lot more variety. It would take a bit longer, but add a lot more value to the pack.

A last idea. Perhaps sell an animation DLC? A way to download new anims that use the default bone rig, apply them to you characters (or just have pre made objects) and voila! Loads of new anims!
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Flatlander
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Posted: 21st Jul 2019 21:22
Sorry Dvader, but I'm with the majority on this. IMHO I do say "yes" on taking it out.
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MooKai
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 00:19
You don't need to remove the Character Creator, maybe just add a text in the background "experimental, alpha status" ...
Then nobody can complain about the actual status of the CC.
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2019 08:03
Ok is there any reason why we cant have both , game guru's CC and the new character importer ??
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2019 08:48 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2019 08:50
@PC
PC wrote: "Ok is there any reason why we cant have both , game guru's CC and the new character importer ??"


Yes there is ,"time and money", the dual reason why none of us will ever get all we want in life.
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science boy
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2019 17:30
If it is not hurting anyone jus put a disclaimer to it and let them know its limitations until further notice. Fuse will I may be wrong here. have copyright issues so if you want law on your case for cash if you make it. Make human I have no idea but if you make a biped anim system or if you work and link to make human and have a lot of ai based around it direct them there as long as it won't come to bite people up the bottom then no issues

Basically don't leave people too restricted to the few models working with gg and I agree it will need a lot of tlc so I would say leave it there and leave a disclaimer. And direct to a more logical easier and less time consuming creator with a good finish. And have a few tutorials of where to find make human how to create and save and how to transfer into gg with ai script to fit makehuman like the ai for the soldiers



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Posted: 23rd Jul 2019 19:01
Characters made in fuse were recently blocked from being sold on the store so there are copyright issues with those however not sure about it its ok to have them included in your own commercial game ..
Make Human has no issues at all that im aware of so you should be good to go with those ..
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3com
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2019 19:48 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2019 19:49
Fuse license is no so clear on this area, it's a bit confused (as usual) it looks like what they are protecting are the animations made on their site, with their tools.
Anyway they can change their thought when they want to, so better don't sell their stuff.
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Belidos
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2019 20:18
Fuse licensing us very clear, you are not allowed to sell or distribute them outside of a project such as a game, a movie, or rendered scene etc. A couple of years back a very prolific 3d artist on the unity store was hit with a big stick by them for selling fuse characters, there was a huge copyright claim against him.

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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 24th Jul 2019 23:38 Edited at: 24th Jul 2019 23:39
I would be fine with losing Character Creator for the forseeable future.
I also mirror the comments about talking. What ever happened to Dark Voices? That was a rudimentary system but serviceable for the amateur games we all make. Otherwise all these 100 characters might as well wear face masks, or walk around like Bela Legusi in Plan 9 From Outer Space.

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Posted: 25th Jul 2019 16:46
Adobe says very clearly that You can use its content as long as You use it in a project. Yes, You can use it in Your games, and No You cant sell the models one by one or as a pack. I dont think Adobe can say it more clear...
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Posted: 27th Jul 2019 01:20
I've made 100's of fuse characters, make human and Autodesk characters for use in GG but I do also still use CC definitely NO to removing it I am at present learning how to make assets for CC and with a little help I am sure I could rattle out a shed load of them. So no please leave it alone
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3com
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Posted: 27th Jul 2019 13:57
Cuestion is nor removing CC, but TGC should take some Roadmap, about CC.
1- Make it most complete and bug free, adding some variety on stuff.
2- Make CC most professional with great stuff, even done the user the chamce to make their own stuff, friedly use, even it can be a standalone app, does no disturb GG work, 100% compatible with GG of course, and can be selled by TGC as extra product.

IHMO it shoul be a basic version of CC already installed in GG right now, and working ok, with a bit of more stuff and maybe some new feature, or improving the old ones. Also it can be the version pro as mentioned above. Just my toughts.
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Posted: 28th Jul 2019 11:41 Edited at: 28th Jul 2019 11:42
Maybe it would have been a nice idea to have had a CC section on the forum like we have for the EBE that way people (and there is a few of us) could post attachments, clothing etc a bit like what make human has and see what the community could come up with. I know I would post attachments up on there for people to use
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Posted: 28th Jul 2019 11:57
i must say i quit like the idea of 3com, it could accommodate to all the problems.

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Posted: 28th Jul 2019 22:58
+1, all characters having zombie & combat animations would be very handy!
Mr Love
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Posted: 29th Jul 2019 02:26
For those Who cant live without CC, maybe Lee perhaps courld create a CC standalone for You and Everybody is happy. Ok? Sadly CC scares away many talanted developers who belive GG is a "ToyKit for kids" and not a working game engine! Let Them know that You can make really advanced games in Gameguru...
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cybernescence
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Posted: 29th Jul 2019 13:55
I think GG is for beginners and those wanting an easy low key way to dabble in game development. From that point of view the character creator should absolutely be left in as a core facet of the application.

Creating more advanced games requires coding ability and lots of time. Creating unique looking games needs very easy import and GG had made a fair bit of headway in allowing this over last year or so.

Creating extended world games that can be built with Unity and the like cannot be achieved with GG and devs will never be able to do so. From that view talented developers (those not learning or who have grand visions for their games) should stay away from GG.

I’ve learnt a massive amount using GG and for that I’m hugely grateful to Lee and the community here.

Cheers.
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Posted: 29th Jul 2019 22:11
Looks like Lee is making great progress already, I just tried his alpha code from github and dropped a mixamo rigged biped character into the importer and it added the stock uber soldier anims to the character. Seem to have lost her eyes somewhere, but I'm probably using the wrong mix rig.



Cheers

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synchromesh
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Posted: 30th Jul 2019 00:45
Quote: "dropped a mixamo rigged biped character into the importer and it added the stock uber soldier anims to the character"

That's awesome news … If we could do the same with Make Human we would be laughing
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KRivva
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Posted: 30th Jul 2019 07:02
Quote: "From that view talented developers (those not learning or who have grand visions for their games) should stay away from GG. "


This almost sounds like a warning.
As a newbie reading such comments, I sometimes ask myself if I waste my time, trying to realize my project with GG.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 30th Jul 2019 08:58
@KRivva

It is a gentle warning of sorts. I love GG and have been using it actively for 5 years. The game I’m developing has a ‘grand vision’ of open world airship flight, underwater adventure, flying cities, fantasy creatures and mechanised armies.

It is and has been a struggle to materialise that vision in GG with many engine modifications and extensive lua coding needed.

In hindsight I would be a lot further on if I’d used a more mature engine from the start.

However I don’t think I would have learned so much about the technical side of game development without using GG.

You can get along way with GG for first person games quite rapidly but then you will hit a wall of sorts when you get to wanting large complex levels filled with assets and NPCs. Getting over that wall is difficult and many people would find it easier using an engine that has already been further developed to make this easier. And I can see that some aspects of a game engine will either never arrive for GG or will be many years away.

There’s no doubt a lot of fun can be had with GG though - it depends on what you really want to achieve as to if you should stick with it now.

Hope that helps.

Cheers.
LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
24
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Location: England
Posted: 30th Jul 2019 15:30
@cybernescence: If you want to send me your raw files for this character, I can add her to my list of test models as I attempt to improve the mapping of the rigs with GameGuru animations. As you may know, the best solution is a model with custom rigging and animations designed for that rig. In our case we have a geometry from one place, a rig from another and animation data from a third source, it's amazing these characters can still stand up
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cybernescence
GameGuru Master
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Playing: Cogwheel Chronicles
Posted: 30th Jul 2019 19:26
Will do Lee.

I was amazed that she came out anywhere near as good as she did for the reasons you say. And as you’ve only just started on this.

She isn’t a make human model though and I get that is your primary focus, so the mix tweaking will most likely focus on that mesh type?


Cheers.
Mr Love
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Location: Sweden
Posted: 31st Jul 2019 01:50 Edited at: 31st Jul 2019 01:53
@cybernescence

Are You sure its not a bug in FUSE? The same thing happened to Me when I exported a Character from MakeHuman to Cinema 4D? Have You tried to save the Character into different formats? Yes I have seen the eyebug before and it was not GG, maybe adobe liked the bug or something, get Cinema 4D sence it shows the Character as it will look in GG, but maybe You prefer max or Maya?
Anyways to Me the eyebug was an easy fix, dont remember exactly how I fixed it but I remember it was a small job....
Guess what Aiko and I did this weekend...
OldFlak
GameGuru TGC Backer
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Location: Tasmania Australia
Posted: 31st Jul 2019 07:45
So is work actually being done on this already?

Thought we were meant to be in bug fix mode....

Reliquia....
aka OldFlak
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cybernescence
GameGuru Master
11
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Joined: 28th Jan 2013
Playing: Cogwheel Chronicles
Posted: 31st Jul 2019 08:46
@Mr Love
Yes im sure it’s not a bug in fuse/mixamo. I can get the character to work fine without using the importer route (without GG anims). It’s the mapping between the mix rig and the GG stock version, that then has the Uber anims added to it - the new capability that is being built.

@Reliquia, looks like Preben has started a ‘July’ commit in Git so maybe bugs also being fixed?


Cheers.

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