So who is it then?

Now your not just trying to be nice are you

I'm not quite that brave, but i think Wolf might know who i mean, he's mentioned it to the person before

The reality is if you think your comments, criticism may help them then I would use the PM system.
Naming names wont go down very well with anyone good intentions or not.

That's a good point. I don't want to get into a debate over politics or economics but in a sense, that is what capitalism is about. Anybody has a chance to make a product and try to sell it. The investment can be quite high and if it flops, they'll either try to make the product better or drop out of the market-place. Maybe Steam should charge $200 to give the seller more incentive to create a good and fun game to play. IMHO

@Lee, I hope you leave in the ability to create a stand-alone game. I have over 12 pages of assets I have purchased and provided a good amount in the beginning for FPSC-Reloaded. I would like to share my games with my grand-kids without them having to purchase GG. Also, I create educational games that I give to organizations free so they can be used by their students, patients, and residents of an institution.

That one guy that uploaded the variety of Game Guru demos directly to Steam made over 3 thousand dollars... (before taxes)




I believe he was joking lol (i hope)

I find that hard to believe …. But if you know for sure then so be it

Why don't we bring back a 'Best of the Best' type situation that a creator can tout as kind of an award and seal of approval by the community. Sort of like a Nintendo seal of approval. This way 'Joe Asset Flip' can still get his game on Steam but without the seal of approval it shouldn't be taken as a quality game that could be made with Game Guru. It's just a thought to combat the GG getting besmirched due to bad examples of its use. I see lots of great games on here that you can obviously tell time, effort, creativity and heart goes into them. Those should be sent out there as ambassadors and true representations of what GG can do. Maybe a GG Community seal of approval will get that established. As I said, just a thought.

Is there a source for that?

Yeah, me too - only use Reliquia for Game Guru stuff, elsewhere I still go by OldFlak, tis more descriptive of me being an old fart

OldFlak caused issues for people downloading my skyboxes (they didn't show up in TAB TAB for selection) Since noone at TGC could work out why, and it was taking forever to not get sorted I changed to Reliquia so people could get my skyboxes to work without having to go under the hood and rename stuff.

Course I could just sign of as OldFlak just to confuse everyone

Reliquia....

Now that is a good idea. Since Lee has GG on Steam, I'd think he'd be able to work with them on spreading the news that if it does not have a seal of approval it is not necessarily a quality game.

I find that annoying, flatlander, every one is entitled to release their game whether good,or great, stock or custom assets, steam has the final say on whether or not a game is released. Gameguru royalty free, Lee isn't going to imposed martial law on his baby not only would the community turn on him and the software, any creditability goes out the door any you can pretty much kiss any revenue goodbye.

Secondly this software isn't like any other software, like unity, leadwerks or unreal, it relies heavily on it's stock library, dlcs and store as the intended audience is for those who don't want the hassle of wanting or can't create their own content .It's right there on product page and forms part of the sales pitch, multiple times.It says specifically create game with dlcs or stock library and sell or share them royalty free.
So the asset flipping isn't applicable to gameguru besides people have the broader scope and definition some what wrong on what asset flipping really is, nor is it exclusive to indies. Quite a few AAA games have reused their own assets again in an entirely new game or sequels to previous games.

A good example is saints row 3 and saints row 4, a couple of more high profile games did the same.Additionally the minority in general seems to moaning about it, if it fits the task and does the job why should you reinvent the wheel when its perfectly fine asset.

You forgetting half life universe pretty reused majority of their assets again even some made their way is counter strike source.It is much ado about nothing.There is a thriving business of selling assets with about every popular engine, it makes indies lives far far far easier.

Is it lazy development not at all how many times do you really need to do same assets again and again. Wasting time that could be used else where, sure you could at least do the effort and retexture the asset as most do, but people still whine, really.....

Lastly with regards to the game released on steam there is no such thing as a "bad" game or bad art, games and art is an extremely subjective thing and different strokes for different folks apply. I pull a funny face every time some one whines about a gameguru game being released on steam, so what, have you released a game on steam yet, have you done any thing significantly to address the allegedly "poor" quality of gameguru games.I think we are quite quick to point a finger.Every major engine has some or other game made with it that people complain about, however there equally games people don't complain about or question, with tremendous amount of effort going into it, and steam users still rip through them like 1 ply toilet paper.Steam is in general an extremely toxic environment, people bash and post negative reviews because they can and have nothing better to do then watching the world burn. Negative reviews often have nothing to do with the, actual game, and some get a bad review because the user has a beef with the relevant party.

Gameguru has a few of those reviews like that.

Final thought, does it shed a bad light on the software, no, anyone one will be able to see that the software isn't to blame, some times just requires a gentle reminder.Anyone and every one is entitled to release a game as they see fit, actively bashing some one for doing so just isn't on.......Kudos to him, I hope this person releases more games he is at least doing some thing however subjective you may find it.

Will I buy a game like that? Sure if it is one of our fellow forum member even none forum members I would gladly pay especially if my assets were used as a small token of appreciation for the support, regardless of what the game is and the amount of positive or negative reviews iam a big believer of one hand washes the other hand, karma comes in many forms and you get what you give.

Thank you for your words Wizard of Id. Im not a fan of low effort work but you make a good point about being entitled to showcase ones art no matter how atrocious I or others may view it.

I often have the discouraging thought that my games will never be noticed when players must wade through a mountain of "trash" to find mine. Not that my work isnt trash, just that I feel extremely dedicated to providing a specific experience.

But the truth is that any artform, be it books or shortfilms or games, every creator is competing with every other creator for a piece of the audience. One doesnt deserve any different recognition simply because other creators value their work more or less than others. I realize I have been feeling like writers must have felt when the general population started to normalize literacy. It was big money to write books before just anyone could, and Im sure scribes looked upon peasant writings with disgust. That doesnt mean other peasants did, and its almost certain that a peasants first book he was very, very proud of.

With the increase in accessibility to both game creation and game publishing/launching, it is only natural that so many would try their hand at it. Hobbyist projects of children and as Avenging Eagle said some peoples first time paintings by people who have never even seen a paintbrush before (or even paint at all) will want to showcase their work.

I also agree that community is important to improvement. If no one says anything but praise, of course the creator's view of his project will be skewed. However it is also important to give constructive criticism which, contrary to popular belief, can be delivered truthfully without being condescending, aggresive, or disdainful.

The sad thing is that the community we have here is relatively unique in this day and age. I have yet to find such a supportive and thoughtful community for any other engines, and most places will only give you praise if they like it and ignore it if they dont. Which of course creates a positive feedback loop for the poster who thinks his work is well received because 20 people said it was wicked awesome, when in actuality 30,000 people saw flaws, said nothing and didnt give it a second glance.

@sbegley001

The problem I have with criticism especially on this forum and else where, it's rarely constructive and rarely criticism. It's merely a subjective opinion based on experience or lack of their of.Unlike having the freedom and right to publish a game irrespective of experience, skill and talent every one is a critic, nor should every one be a critic, it's heavily opinionated, rarely healthy, more often then not it's intended to cause as must damage it can inflict. It's a double edge sword, and rather avoid it altogether.

Often results in awkward moments, "I am my own biggest critic. Before anyone else has criticized me, I have already criticized myself " , with art and games where it is 100% subjective it is a whole lot tougher, you should at least try and find an objective view if you can, if you can't, you need to decide if you going to listen to subjective views and care about it.

With certain things like a car mechanic or writing code, or flying a plane, creating art, it either works or it doesn't. Do you have to consider a view or criticism presented, hell no, at no point are you forced to do any thing you don't want to or don't like it, except death and taxes those come due eventually no matter what. Tell you what, that will get some people incredibly enraged if you ignore views, opinions ect, you are entitled and free to do so. Personally, I am quite happy to be ignorant and blissfully unaware, I am far happier and far more creative for it, it just means you will need to be far harder on your self and disciplined. Ultimately you need to decide whether you want to keep critics happy or supporters happy.Sure you could try and balance both, I will much rather have supporters then critics, after all critics don't pay the bills. Critiquing makes people reactive, rather than proactive.

It is advertisement for GG. Nobody cares about good or bad advertisement, or if it is trash or a AAA-quality game.
Maybe someone sees games like these and buys GG to do the same or better, which is another coin in the pot.

I came to FPSC caused by a trash game where I thought I can do this better (spoiler: I can not)

If someone buys such a game, let him do it

Its not.



Well put.



I've seen this before elsewhere but its rarely to never the case on these forums.
I partly agree with you though, of course, everyone should be free to publish anything they want and we should not impose any "seals" or so on GG products.

I wouldn't worry about "bad" games being put up on Steam or even consider it being bad advertising for GameGuru. I mean, I've seen tons and tons of terrible art made in Photoshop, a crap-load of terrible 3D art made with 3D Studio Max, Maya, Silo, MODO, and just about any other 3D program. But I don't see people going around saying that Photoshop, Clip Studio Paint, Max, Maya, etc., are terrible programs BECAUSE of the bad art some have created. A tool is a tool. Nothing more. And any tool is only as good as the hand that wields it.

Agreed ...
I worry more about the hundreds that may not respond let alone the thousands

+


I think everything is said, Just add than with a most advance GG engine, some one might do a very good game, to counteract the bad games, just my thoughs.

What bad game ?

I do not talk about a particular game.
I think that some Gameguru users want to see their games published, without having much in mind the quality of it.
However, I also think that everyone is free to publish whatever they want, as long as steam or any other allows it.

If this serves to continue advancing, why not?

Well I am talking about any game, any game engine any platform, why is there a definitive bad versus good, why does some thing need to be labeled bad when it doesn't measure up to some thing that based on opinion is good. It is distasteful and shows lack of respect towards artistry of whomever is in question, however rudimentary or experienced.

Good and bad, it's all the same.

I have to disagree with this. Sorry. It smacks, to me, of the "every kids gets a trophy just for showing up" mentality. There are bad games and there are good games (even if the idea of "good" and "bad" are subjective). And, as far as I am concerned, it's perfectly fine to label them as such. However, even if someone states something is "bad" or "good", that does not mean I need to believe them. I am free to check it out for myself. There are, for example, plenty of movies that the critics (and even the general audience) has labeled as "bad" that I completely enjoy. Even so, I am not going to begrudge these people their ability to state their opinion on the matter.

Some games have terrible (i.e. bad) game mechanics that stand in the way of game play. Sure, someone could claim it's a form of "artistic expression" to have the mechanics thus, but those of us that play the game are also allowed to disagree. There are many ways in which a game can be bad (and, even so, some may still like the game even if most find it objectionable).

As far as artistry - I am an artist. And some art being created (and that has been created in the past) is utter crap. Some is fantastic, too. But just because someone labels something as "art" does not make it automatically good nor does it make it completely free from being critiqued or labeled as "good" or "bad" or anything in-between. Just because something is "art" or "an art" does not mean it is free from interpretation. In fact, the very act of putting one's art out there in the general public is to invite critique and to be judged as "good" or "bad" or mediocre" or just about anything. If someone is too worried about how people are going to judge their work, then they had best keep it to themselves.

To say that I cannot label a work, be it a game or otherwise, as "bad" or "good" simply because someone put effort into it is to limit my freedom of speech, is to take away my ability to judge and voice my opinion about something. Art is not about imposing limitations on anyone. It's quite the opposite. So, if I, or anyone else, wants to say a game is "bad" then all the more power to them.

Standards and measurments are important as is being able to judge for oneself and share that opinion. Its part of the bedrock of civilisation.
Without it we end up going down the route of relativism and everything falls apart. Cultural relativism being especially dangerous as its followers tend to view genocidal and regressive cultures not as inferior but merely as different. Same applies for games, a game that runs stable,has fluid controls, has a visually coherent art style, an actual gameplay loop and some thought put into it is not simply different than a broken asset flip, its better.
Even if you subjectively don't like the theme or something else about it, you can probably see that its objectively better. (unless you want to start some college level debate about how anything a human being might perceive as objective is actually still subjective, everything just is an does not need to be labeled ...)

I believe modern art and modern parenting are prime examples of what this type of relativism and lack of standards (or dismantling of previous norms and standards) inevitably leads to. DaVinci wasn't better than Barnett Newman, he just expressed himself differently. It doesn't matter that little Timmy ran twice as fast as little Johnny, both should get a medal. Its a disheartening trend.

Cheers!



-Wolf

Then you really need to read Taoist Parable, it will give you a fair better understanding why my view is what it, with regards to there is no such thing as a bad game.

Additionally you can also say, there's no such thing as a perfect game. The irony to what you would call or good or bad is based on religious contentions.Is it bad that the sun will eventually destroy the solar system ? Is bad when a domestic cat hunts down a mouse or rat and eats.
Who decided that game is bad, who decided that game is good, it is good based on an opinion where some one other then you decided that should be the baseline criteria.

Because the game has good graphics therefor it must be good, it has unique features therefor it must good, it performs exactly like other games I consider good therefor it must be good.I am not saying every game is a "winner" based on your analogy either it's entirely fine to dislike a game I am not a particular fan of RTS or RPG or open world games I find them tedious and much rather enjoy a quick on and out gaming session without having to process and analytically think about every move I am about to make, it takes the fun out of it.

Frankly good and bad is a human invention within a socially acceptable framework. Throw dawn of human literacy and reasoning and a socially acceptable framework out the door what are you left with, then tell me there is a primal urge for good or bad.Apply the same fundamental logic to subjective and objective good and bad reasoning concerning game art and gameplay without a socially acceptable framework and the rest that decided whether or not a game is good or bad. ?

You are subversively being told based on someone's opinion other then your own this is what a good or bad gameplay or game art looks like and then take that as your own gospel to decide the fate of a game.

You want to prove that the game in this thread is bad, then remove the socially acceptable framework , and only use a game criteria not based on opinion or subjective decision, and only objectively break it down for without measuring it with a yardstick another game uses.

Rather difficult isn't it ? Do you still disagree with me when I say there is no such thing as a perfect game or bad game. ?

Oh, I understand your view quite well, mine just differs.

All i will say on the subject of art is, if all art was good art, then there wouldnt be art galleries, and some art wouldnt be valued in the millions when other art is valued as worthless.

Yes art is subjective, but mostly on a personal level, on a general and public level there are ALWAYS minimum standards to achieve to be veiwed as good, especially if you want to make money from it.

Sometimes personal subjectivity gets in the way, and the "artist" just doesn't see their mistakes, and that's when someone needs to step in and say "that's a good effort but .... " and give advice, for their own good, that is how humans learn, improve and grow, it's a fundamental part of human nature.

Edited the post a bit and set a little social experiment for you, I love to think outside the box.

@Belidos

See edited post I will say, additionally to you, who decided that a bed or chair in a game only need two legs to stand on, what gives you the right to share the opinion because beds need at least 3 legs in real life you should change that.Because 10000's other people does it like this so my advise is based on what 10000's doing so it must be right and the only way, I am right and your wrong, that is what you are implying unconsciously at least which isn't your fault. That is why I ignore it, not because I want to be an ass, as I actually realized some time a go who is to say your advise whether objectively or subjectively is correct.

It's nothing mean or argumentative, it's a simple viewpoint that some might find puzzling or hard time agreeing with, either because they don't understand it or they have their own viewpoint that is different.

I much rather be different to every one else, makes it far more challenging and exciting at my own pace and goals.Does that clear up any past, future and present disagreements you may have.

I still think the game look like a pile of junk

Dave

Good, Bad are words that exist and always will to define or describe something … Nothing anyone can do about that.
Its how we use them ourselves that gives them merit … Some may say a game is good some may say a game is bad …
Some may say a particular car is good and some may say its bad ... its just a personal opinion.

However hyping your own game up " One of the best games of this era " is just asking for trouble

So are videogames.

This is an intellectual construct. Every being with a nervous system attached to it responds to duality. Its hardwired into us and every pseudo enlightened dogma that tries to bypass it works on a philosophical level but is thrown out the window in day to day life. If it hurts you, your senses tend to tell you to minimize contact with it. Its bad. If it facilitates your own survival you will likely be fond of it an hence it is good. I bring this up because our language, especially english, hugely relies on duality and adjectives to work. We developed it to survive in groups and hence its a tool that, at its core, relies on the distinctions of "save" and "dangerous", "healthy" and "sick", "good and bad".
If you read further into taoism as you seem to have you will notice that they also speak a lot about how its difficult to explain their view and it has to be understood on a more intuitive level.
Thats the way we communicate, its all a social construct and are objectively just a bunch of grunts or in our case lines on a screen.


Now on to your little question there: I would have to use language to describe why it is a bad game. I could very well attempt to avoid using any kind of comparison but that would only end up being an intellectual pissing contest to see how far I can abstract common language so it no longer seems as if I drew from experience, biasses and my own opinion.
In the same vein there is no way I could do the same and describe why a painting by Salvador Dali is superior to a doodle a 5 year old made.
Anything I say can be deconstructed as much as any human endeavour, notion, idea or concept of meaning if you just decide to be nihilistic enough. Its bait And I won't take it. I can't us the construct of language based on an evolutionary need to describe the world around us in an attempt to deconstruct the construct of human values.



You are inevitably different from everyone else. Also

C'me on, a little hint of smug intellectual superiorty seems noticeable in your post and you know it. But I'm fine with that and hey, its just a subjective opinion

In the end, I am not saying that you are wrong. But neither am I... and isn't truth just a human construct?

Enjoy your weekend wiz

Getting back to the game.
I agree with granada ,
the way he his is going on like he did , it is just foolish and he actually makes a mockery of his own game, to bad he had to use GG as the engine for his game.

Looking at my own work, as i am a newbie to this industry, i am trying to do my best and create the best game that i can possibly do, it takes hard work and long hours , but still , i don't think my work will every be good enough to be place out side there and represent GG as the Game Engine of my choice. and then some one comes along and do this.
yes one can make a foolish kind off game but still then you do it as good and as professional as you can.

So i really hope some of the talented game makers here can have really good susses in the future with there games or new games that they can produce so that every one out there can see GG is a top notch Game Engine.

Pcs

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

@WOID i totally agree with you that artistic aesthetics is unique to everyone, but i'm talking about technical aspecrs of the art of games and modelling. If someone is consistantly doing something wrong, and some advice could help that person improve (my texture example for example), why wouldn't you try to help?

Hehehehe if you say so :p I wouldn't know, and I like to challenge ideas and people, it's fascinating, some times they take it the wrong way, at least you didn't lose you sense of humor along the way

Thanks, I am heading out to the movies, planning on enjoying Captain Marvel , can't wait for End game.

There is more then one way to skin a cat.

In my last job I worked at an Art Gallery, and it becomes very apparent that people see art they way they want to see it - to each person it is either a piece they want to own and hang on a wall or they are just not taken by it at all, or at least not enough to want it.

We had many exhibitions of course, but I remember one we had in 2017 that was open to any style and to anybody. There was this one piece which to me was just complete rubbish - in fact I just chuckled to myself that anyone would want to put in the public view, let alone expect anyone would want to buy it - and I thought 'lol, this one will never sell!'.

The exhibition ran for 1 month, over the ensuing weeks quite a number of entries were sold - but not that one ugly piece.

On the last day of the exhibition about an hour before closing the gallery, this middle-aged man walks in, barely looked at any of the exhibits, and looks at that one ugly piece and immediately says with enthusiasm, 'Just what I have been looking for!!'. It was just the bit of art he wanted to hang in his office!

So this man acquired what he obviously though was good Art.
But to me he still bought a piece of rubbish.

Reliquia....

Personally I think there is a big difference between art and a computer game and there's no real comparison.. We are not art experts and you cant really asset flip the contents of a painting can you ...Although people will buy copies if you want to call that asset flipping but that's usually because the master is a good painting to start with ..

But we are gamers and do know a good game from a bad one … Computer games are not really art but there is an art to making them. Get the ingredients right and you could be on a winner … Get it wrong and its just a mish mash of drivel that's unplayable. Or a bad game if you like ..

My son plays games that I think are boring and pointless, I play games he thinks are boring and pointless, my grandson plays games that both I and my son think are boring and pointless.

I once visited the Tate Modern gallery, went through the entire building and didn't find a single thing that I deemed as being 'Art'. The British Museum otoh is full of what I consider Art, the V&A I'd say is about 50% Art (at least on the various times I have been there) and half garbage.

It's all relative.

The beauty of art is subjective.
Art is a cruel lover.
Great painters dying of hunger and cold in an attic, selling out their paintings, pawning their souls to buy canvases and paintings to paint their paintings, while today some "savvy" are covering millions of dollars for those same paintings.

When art is offered to the highest bidder, it loses part of its charm.

Well I am sorry to say you are wrong for Example


Game art designer and a more encompassing level designer these days who on a professional level have an arts degree any thing of visual creation as such falls under art designer.There is actually quite a few degrees relevant or specific to game development, visual arts degree, digital arts degree.

Bachelor of Engineering Science in Digital Art. For programmers and such.
Bachelor of Arts in Performing and Visual Arts majoring in Game Design.

You still want to tell me that "art" is exclusive to what you will find in a gallery.As wolf mentioned I get smug some times and one of those times is now.

30 000 thousand years ago people in Africa told stories via means of cave paintings where ironically the some of the oldest cave painting in the world is oldest is in Australia and is 40 000 old , they also told stories, give life lessons, and teach their children, performing around camp fires, for many 1000's of years Native American created sculpted art, what about the mayans they also performed around camp fires to teach and entertained.900 years ago the heads of Easter island were being created.
William Shakespeare wrote and performed plays, the invention of radio, plays and stories now enacted on radio.
The the invention of film and then TV and then the personal computers what about carpenters.

The arts evolved from a humble cave painting to what it is today, and will likely evolve again, we already seeing new art being created with holographic projections, where will it evolve next.

You can't draw comparison between game design and art........seriously ? Any thing not code and thing visual is what ? The hint and keyword here is visual. @wolf yeah I can see the smugness now .


Oh you are dead wrong again here as well, I shouldn't have to explain it if you don't understand it. What about sculptures in modern art, especially metal, bronze art.How on earth did you come to the reasoning that because physical arts allegedly doesn't do assets flipping it isn't comparable to digital arts, am I the only one to see the flawed reasoning there.

While some may argue and become quite critical that the final game in it self isn't an art form most admit, there is artistry in creating them, digital art while in it's infancy is much like radio, and comic books who at one point were also not considered an art form is widely acceptable. Additionally the US supreme court point out in case presented to it that a game enjoys first amendment protection.

Can you draw artistry parallels between physical and digital art most definitely, is the final game a work of art that is where people seems to
differ and disagree, is creating the artwork for a game and creation of it considered art, considering this is a game design forum and not a forum for a completed game everyone pretty much agrees there that artistry is involved in creating them.

lol - who would have thought this would become a philosophical debate, all that aside, the game mentioned in op is still rubbish isn't it....


Reliquia....

Yes pretty much excrement

Aw thanks Wolf. I bet you say that to all the gamedevs Joking aside, version v003 is being released in 30 minutes or so I still need to hit you up on discord for sure, haven't forgotten just been busy


Corno_1, you remember Alternate Corno? Just so you know, despite being an early work I quite liked it It was unique for its time. In stark contrast, I would like to share with you all my first FPSC project. I was 13 at the time and unlike Corno_1, I actually thought this looked pretty stellar. Enjoy




We should all strive to be our own biggest critics. However, one must learn what is valuable/important to them to be critical of. For example:

Imagine we have come across a forum post in the Showcase board about a level someone has designed. It is titled "Check out my sweet level guys! I worked really hard on it and its finally totally and completely complete." He is very proud of it. You look at the post and find that the screenies look pretty good, and he even made his own gun model.

There's only one glaring thing to you - the lightmapping. There are a few lights without sources, and some areas are poorly or counter-intuitively lighted. You see it has three comments:
"Wow so cool dude! Did you make that gun model?"
"Looks great. Will play soon. Excellent level design"
"Great work! I love your color choices "

You can either:
A) Ignore it as its not your place to say anything
B) Leave a comment praising the level and the creator. After all, he worked hard on it and we don't want to hurt his feelings
C) Leave a comment degrading his work and outwardly implying he is an idiot. Lightmaps must be a soft spot for us
D) Leave a comment complimenting his level design and custom gun model, then describing the lightmapping problems you see and how you would fix/improve them

In this scenario, only option D) provides the designer with real, valuable feedback he can use. A) and B) leads him to believe his work was received 100% positively with no issues whatsoever. Option C) is (subjectively!) the worst option. Not only does it not provide valuable feedback to the designer at all and come across as an attack, but also discourages him from sharing with the community or even continuing to develop games.

As far as supporters vs critics - one's supporters are their most valuable critics! Supporters want a game to succeed and grow into its ultimate form.





I think everyone is getting a bit caught up in trying to define whether games can be called good or bad. Of course good and bad are subjective and extremely general terms.


I think the real question here and many peoples issue with the game is thus: Quality or Not Quality? The game mentioned is definitely a video game. Some people may enjoy it. Some people may find its artistic direction (or lack thereof) endearing. It may even be a project of love and passion.

Regardless, it is not a quality product.

You can buy two versions of the exact same painting, and the artistic value is agreed to be the same. However, one is made out of quality ingredients, shines in the right light, is encased by a lovingly and painstakingly handcrafted frame, and will hold up against time. The other, though to the naked eye virtually identical, is painted on old cardboard with inferior paints with some paper with a printing of a frame folded around the edges. Which painting would you prefer?

Sorry don't really care what they say … Like I stated " Personally " as in my opinion


I just cannot compare a painting ( or work of art ) to that GameGuru Game on steam
Digital art I can respect as an artform Video's animations etc … But not an asset flip game … it is what it is

For people who want to say there is no actual "good" or "bad", but it's all subjective, I've got a "good" car I'd like to sell you. It doesn't run, the tires are all flat (at least the ones that are still on the car), the floor is rusted through, and I'm not sure how long the cracked glass will keep the wind and rain off ... but, hey! It's a "good" car. It really is. Don't you dare tell me it's not. You don't have the right to judge because, you know, reasons. So, yeah, all art is good and all games are good and all that.

LMAO … But thats a good point though…
To you its a good car .. To everyone else it may be just a pile of junk ..
Its everyone else you need to convince if your selling it

Interesting viewpoints expressed in this thread. My opinion is the art is expression and regardless of how other people feel about your work, so long as you are expressing what you want to in your art then that's fine. I believe video games are art works, but they are also products; they are expressions of creativity but they have a specific purpose. For that reason they, like music, TV, and films, should be critiqued both from a commercial/technical point of view and an artistic one. The former involves looking objectively at how well the game fulfils its job as a piece of entertainment; is it playable? Does it work? Is it buggy? Is it long enough? Does it offer value for money when compared to other games, or even other forms of media? Then you get onto the artistic side, which is entirely subjective; did I find it entertaining? Did I think it was pretty? Was it fun for me to play? In this way, video games can be both objectively terrible but subjectively great, or vice versa.

Bringing it back to Game Guru, I think it's fine to label these low effort Steam games as both objectively and subjectively awful. They fail to provide an adequate experience for the money asked, are buggy, and show little to no creativity in either scope or execution. There is no artistic expression here, only a blatant and deceitful attempt to bait gamers and reviewers into giving them money. They are entitled to do this of course, the freedom is given to them in the royalty free license of Game Guru, but it doesn't mean the gaming public should accept these bad practises.

Sadly though, blame cannot be entirely apportioned solely to the creators of these games, a small part of it rests with the engine itself which, as we all know, has plenty of bugs, limitations, and unfinished features. If Game Guru had a smaller feature set but did all those things impeccably well, and really stably, I think it would be easier for good games to rise to the top. Not groundbreaking ones, not epic open-world sagas, just fun pick-up-and-play ones. This would improve the reputation of the engine overall. I'm imagining it now...

"Yeah OK some hack uploaded a demo level to Steam and charged $10 for it, but did you see that awesome sci-fi shooter set in war-torn Seoul? That was made with Game Guru too!"

Instead, most of us on this forum who care about creating a good product spend 90% of our time engineering our way out of Game Guru's limitations and disguising its shortcomings, and - most importantly - often never finish a game. With the bar to entry deliberately (and rightly) set so low, it's just way easier for those 'developers' in OP's post to create tripe than instead do what most of us are doing and actually put the effort in.

Lastly, I agree with WOI with regards to asset flipping - it shouldn't be an applicable critique for Game Guru games. Besides, it's not about you using the same assets used in 100 other Game Guru games, it's about how you use them. And this is where that creativity and artistic expression comes in again; if they makes sense within the context of the game world and level itself, what's the issue?

AE

From the start TGC should have been releasing the GG demo levels for free on Steam, they could even have asked a couple of the more capable designers to polish these as examples, a few hundred bucks would have saved them from the bad publicity garnered from asset flips and promoted their product in a more positive light.

As for the Art debate.....nothing to contribute.

I'm with Rolfy on that.