Product Chat / Rendering Engine Overhaul - Get Ready For DirectX 11

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Belidos
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Posted: 8th Sep 2017 19:36
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Lee, what type of PBR are we getting, ie which layers (metalic, shine, Ao, etc.) and what prefices will we need to use?

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 8th Sep 2017 19:48
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I am aiming to support iClone 7 amongst others and they use much more than 60 bones so I will be looking at that (besides, DX11 gives me MANY more constants). The textures so far are Albedo, Normal, Specular, Gloss (inverse of roughness), AO but I will be looking at Height for parallax shading and anything else that some of the FBX sources conjure up. It seems the specular approach is more common than the metallic approach, but I will likely end up supporting both. Right now I am playing on the specular side of things.
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granada
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Posted: 8th Sep 2017 20:29
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Great that you are going to sapport all the variations,this will give us more choice of tools to use .

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Belidos
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Posted: 8th Sep 2017 20:32
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Great news Lee, thanks for the info, it helps us plan for the future

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Posted: 10th Sep 2017 12:22
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Great work Lee!

Here be some inspiration for you:


.... and when you get to volumetric particles:



Of course I am not expecting much

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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 05:59
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Wow lee the latest pbr results look sunning.
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 06:23
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We will be needing a new DLC, a big one Although I imagine we will get a few default objects to have a look at.
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 09:31
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We need a high quality DLC pack... I would pay a higher price for some good fbx models.
But first we need an AI bug fix
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 11:22
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I can't wait to see it for myself in gg. Awesome work.
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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 11:52 Edited at: 14th Sep 2017 11:53
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Quote: "We need a high quality DLC pack... I would pay a higher price for some good fbx models.
But first we need an AI bug fix "


To be honest, if we had a better importer with access to more formats, along with shaders that can access more modern features such as PBR, then we don't need any DLC at all, at that point it will be at the stage where unity, unreal and the other big engines are, and you can simply add any model purchased or acquired from anywhere. That's why the big engines don't come with much media, because it's simply not needed because pretty much anything can be imported without fuss, if we can get GameGuru to that point then they won't have to worry about content, and will be able to focus more on features and fixes.

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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 12:21
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Quote: "if we can get GameGuru to that point then they won't have to worry about content, and will be able to focus more on features and fixes."

Exactly right,once the latest release is out I can see a lot of fixes and new features coming our way .i am hoping Ai will be among the first things to be fixed.

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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 12:26 Edited at: 14th Sep 2017 12:29
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Quote: "Exactly right,once the latest release is out I can see a lot of fixes and new features coming our way .i am hoping Ai will be among the first things to be fixed."


Yup, AI is high on my list of priorities, you got my vote there, oh wait i can't vote the community vote page's broken again lol

Seriously though, having more options to import is an important step towards narrowing down the list of features and fixes that are needed, DLC is great, but it's not as important as having a stable, working, engine full of features, and with proper FBX and PBR support DLC's can take a back seat and allow more time to focus on the important things.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 12:47
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@All : If you can send me your AI issues direct to me at lee@thegamecreators.com with an FPM level using stock media and a step by step, I can sort a few of them out in the beta as part of the regular bug fixing work. I have fixed a few, but want to make sure I have caught all the serious ones well before we're ready to release the next update. Thanks!
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Belidos
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 12:53
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Quote: "@All : If you can send me your AI issues direct to me at lee@thegamecreators.com with an FPM level using stock media and a step by step, I can sort a few of them out in the beta as part of the regular bug fixing work. I have fixed a few, but want to make sure I have caught all the serious ones well before we're ready to release the next update. Thanks!"


I think most of my "bug" issues were the ones reported in the bug threaded that you responded to (things like having large amounts of entities stops them working etc), so i assume those ones you know about and have looked at.

A minor niggle i have with the AI scripts, more an omission than a bug, AI_Soldier.lua (and maybe all of them) don't use an unarmed idle when they're not aggro'd any more. They used to patrol/stand around in an unarmed idle pose, then when you got in range/line of sight they would switch to an armed pose, but they don't do that now, they're always standing there with their guns out. Any chance we can get that added back again, i've tried, but i can't work it out.

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MooKai
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 13:54
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That's right Belidos, with a good importer we would not need a DLC pack. But buying a DLC from GG would help the company too. So better give them some extra money than someone else, if the content is good.

Lee, here's the link to the AI bug thread...
https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/218124

There's also an example .fpm with stock media.
I hope the zombies will walk again soon.
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granada
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 14:03
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From Lee

Quote: "I have checked out the level and can confirm the Zombies all seem to lose brains after so many are killed. Thanks for helping me reproduce this issue!"

I think that your problem might be fixed for the next release (it works better for bug fixes if you zip them up and send directly to lee I have found )

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MooKai
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 14:07
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I've sent him a mail with the link, but I couldn't attach the .fpm.... My iPad don't want to download it
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Gtox
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 14:52
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@Lee - if you play 'The big escape' (I do it often for fps testing), you can see a few obvious ai issues - they tend to slide around a lot, many of them fail to spawn (not on every playthrough, probably every third playthrough), and some just go wandering off over the hills and far away.
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 22:43 Edited at: 14th Sep 2017 22:44
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@Lee
still the big one for me is they keep on falling thru most of the entities, when they are not on the ground level.
And they mostly keep on running into entities when they are supposed to avoid them , when the must a tact you.


And then i still believe the old ai_soldier script works better than this last upgrade, take any two groups of soldiers and give one group the old script and one group the new script, when it comes to responding when you shoot at them the old script reacts faster than the new script , they just look better when you test them, just the old ai_soldiers do not run well when they need to run from one place to another.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 14th Sep 2017 22:52
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The 50 Zombies freeze bug is now fixed in the beta. Any other AI issues ideally need to be as an FPM using stock assets with a step by step. General comments using words like 'better' and 'fail to spawn sometimes' is just too vague for me to work on the AI with purpose. I would spend more time trying to guesstimate and find the issue than simply fixing it. I would also hold off on AI feature requests or suggest a restoration of previous behaviors until after the major update so I can focus. I do plan, however, to do some AI work in this area to improve the Big Escape gameplay so you might find improvements from this, but generally, I want to eliminate hard bugs from the AI system initially, so everyone can at least get what is supposed to work, working.
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 00:59
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I can confirm that the zombie AI bug is fixed for the test map.
But if I use my map... the zombies not move after a while (or lets say after I killed the first 4-5 of them)

I've deleted the old zombies from the map. Saved the map, restarted GG, added new zombies... same effect.
Tried to set them "always active" nothing. Used spawn points, nope...
Well, I don't know if it's my map(s) or the AI from the characters.
The chicken NPC from dagored is working fine, I can add 200 chicken, no problem they all move.
Same for the spider character from dagored, they move, attack, no problem, even I have a lot of them in the scene...
He use his own script, if I would know how, I would modify his spider/chicken script for the zombies
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 10:35
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Quote: "The chicken NPC from dagored is working fine, I can add 200 chicken, no problem they all move."

That's obviously because the new AI scripts are at fault. The chicken script is a lot simpler than the AI ones, that is if it's like the pig one, which I own. There would be little point trying to convert the script either really, they are nothing alike and also I imagine the chickens don't have advanced path finding AI so they can chase you...

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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 11:40
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I can't wait for DirectX 11 and PBR, I have already started to create my new models with other maps ready for when this is available.

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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 12:35
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@MooKai : Do you want to zip up your level and assets and send them to me, that way I can debug the engine directly against your map and see the issue you are experiencing, thanks. My direct email address is: lee@thegamecreators.com
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 13:11
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@dvader... Yes yes but the spiders chase you.


Lee, ok I will try to zip everything tonight... Will be a large zip/rar
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 15:53
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@ Mookai. I only own the pig lol, so couldn't say about other assets, although I have an insect that does that, thinking about it. The pig refuses to face you and runs away
Lets hope the AI is improved for the next release. It sounds as if some issues have already been fixed by the dev log.
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MooKai
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 18:14
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Yes, the test map I've created before (for this bug check) is working now. The zombie move on that map.
But even 18-20 zombies not move on my project map I'm working on... So the project is on hold since 3 months
Don't know what's wrong with my map
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 18:57 Edited at: 15th Sep 2017 18:57
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Once I can reproduce it, I can probably fix it without 30 minutes. The power of good bug reports
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 21:47
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what does PBR stand for?
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 21:59 Edited at: 15th Sep 2017 22:03
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Physical Based Rendering
Welcome to the real world!
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 22:01
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https://3dcoat.com/pbr/

This will give you some idea

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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 22:18
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Lee, I've sent you a mail with the buggy level...
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Posted: 15th Sep 2017 22:19 Edited at: 15th Sep 2017 22:21
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Posted: 18th Sep 2017 22:26
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Good news on your latest progress Lee,Ime happy to see features being added along the way .This will be a big step forward for GG I hope,and with it more sales for the company .

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Posted: 18th Sep 2017 22:46
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If PBR visuals, faster performance, quicker load times and continual additions won't do it, I am not sure what will As you might have guessed I am saving PBR metals and reflective surfaces to last, as that's the stuff most people associate with a PBR render. It will be a relief having just one 'correct' lighting model to work from.
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Posted: 19th Sep 2017 00:27
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GIve me dynamic lights casting shadows, too, and I will purchase another 5 GG packs on Steam in order to preach its glory to all generations of aspiring game devs to come
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Posted: 19th Sep 2017 08:06
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Lua Shader variables!!! Brilliant - thanks Lee. Some spectacular effects can soon be put in via post process, alt textures etc.

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Posted: 19th Sep 2017 08:31
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thanks very very much Lee for the Shader Variable control.....this will be extremely beneficial to GameGuru and my converter tool
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Posted: 20th Sep 2017 20:53
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This new rendering engine and PBR is going to be a huge step forward, i'm very impressed.
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2017 23:45 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2017 23:46
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Lee, while you're doing the DX11 upgrades, any chance you can look into the differences between static and dynamic when light maps are baked, I can understand there will always be a bit of a difference between a baked static object and an unbaked dynamic object, but at the moment the difference is huge and it's stopping me doing what I want to do with my current project (I want some piled up furniture to collapse, which I can do easily with scripts, but when you have similar items some static and some dynamic they look really odd), here's some pictures of the difference, as you can see it's like night and day, and ideally you shouldn't be able to tell the difference without looking real hard....



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Belidos
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Posted: 24th Sep 2017 00:49
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Quote: "The 50 Zombies freeze bug is now fixed in the beta. Any other AI issues ideally need to be as an FPM using stock assets with a step by step. General comments using words like 'better' and 'fail to spawn sometimes' is just too vague for me to work on the AI with purpose. I would spend more time trying to guesstimate and find the issue than simply fixing it. I would also hold off on AI feature requests or suggest a restoration of previous behaviours until after the major update so I can focus. I do plan, however, to do some AI work in this area to improve the Big Escape gameplay so you might find improvements from this, but generally, I want to eliminate hard bugs from the AI system initially, so everyone can at least get what is supposed to work, working."


Here's a video showing the main issues I am having with AI at the moment, it's more obvious with melee range characters like the zombies, as you can see the pathing is just not right, at some points it goes off on a tangent and tried to enter a side room to path to me when i'm around a corner, other times it just gets stuck and loops sound and animation on the spot, it also sometimes just stops for no apparent reason until I take a few steps forward, and finally at the end it completely freeze up and stop working.



When I get time tomorrow i'll zip up all of my entities used in that video and email you them with an FPM file so you can check it out for yourself (it's gonna be a big zip though lol)

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Belidos
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Posted: 25th Sep 2017 08:19
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Quote: "I am aiming to support iClone 7 amongst others and they use much more than 60 bones so I will be looking at that (besides, DX11 gives me MANY more constants). The textures so far are Albedo, Normal, Specular, Gloss (inverse of roughness), AO but I will be looking at Height for parallax shading and anything else that some of the FBX sources conjure up. It seems the specular approach is more common than the metallic approach, but I will likely end up supporting both. Right now I am playing on the specular side of things."


Lee, can you please let us now what extensions you are using for these as there are multiple standards used in multiple programs...

ie: _AO _N _S _G etc.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 25th Sep 2017 10:00
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I am also finding it a little crazy with all the various PBR texture naming conventions being used. I have currently settled on spelling out the texture types for now, so my standard (which can be converted to from other ways) is to use _color, _normal, _gloss, _specular, _ao, _height, _detail as at least we can read what the textures are supposed to be. In regards to lightmapping, the PBR way of rendering actually reduces the things you can tweak and delivers a standard that 'should not' be broken, so in theory, the lightmapped PBR should be identical to the dynamic rendered objects. Not tried this yet as not got that far, but in theory, your issue should not surface in the final update. I have your AI issue email, thanks, I will get right on it!
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Belidos
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Posted: 25th Sep 2017 10:19
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Thanks Lee, much appreciated, i hope what i linked you is enough for you to work with on the AI issues.

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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 25th Sep 2017 12:56
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Thank you Lee.
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Belidos
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Posted: 25th Sep 2017 21:46
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Quote: "I have your AI issue email, thanks, I will get right on it!"


I can confirm that most of the AI issues in my video are fixed in beta, they still hang up on some geometry, but overall it's a thousand percent better.

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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 26th Sep 2017 23:00
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Knowledge makes a big difference. Looking good Lee.

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GraPhiX
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Posted: 26th Sep 2017 23:39
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niceeeee ..........
Welcome to the real world!
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Earthling45
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Posted: 27th Sep 2017 10:00
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Almost five months in the major rendering engine overhaul with also a large list of numerous fixes and FBX support.

It seems a long time, but i think Lee's fingertips are worn out now, no fingerprint possible anymore due to the wear out.

I think any compliment is well deserved, although it seems like a long time, i doubt that many coders will be able to accomplish the same in such a short time whilst also fixing any bugs and PBR support and FBX.

2017 is a year in which Game Guru is elevated to a whole new level.

EBE
Third person
New terrain texture system
Full control of game and AI overhaul
extra DLC content such as the golden ally and assets for mission to mars.
DX11
PBR support
FBX support
Bug fixes

Did i forget something?

Lee, a deep bow to you.

Does anyone know a good software package to create PBR textures? does 3Dcoat do that or is the software of Oldpman sufficient?
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OldFlak
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Posted: 27th Sep 2017 10:57
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Quote: "Does anyone know a good software package to create PBR textures? does 3Dcoat do that or is the software of Oldpman sufficient?"

Substance
Quixel

Reliquia....
aka OldFlak
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