Please don't get distracted by too many voices shouting out in the dark right now.

As many of the smart people above have already stated, a "Necessities first" approach would be good. So, yes, the additioal performance boost in the next update will already be a minor breakthrough when adding to the current one.

Then it's pretty easy to get a logical order based on severity:

I personally don't need the EBE, but finishing it now instead of letting it rot half-baked seems like a good idea. It would have had low priority for me personally before, but now it's something you should nail down so it won't re-appear in the future.
AI has to be tackled asap, as everyone is struggeling with that one most. Having a decent (not glorious) AI script for enemies, allies and neutral that really can navigate buildings, go upstairs, downstairs, take cover e.t.c. is simply a must-have. No need for fancy "break windows and jump out" stunts right now, but believable idle movement & combat action must be possible without opening the LUA files.
Flashlight casting shadows - a good one, especially if this can be used to add additional, moving, shadow-casting lights in general, no matter if the level was baked or is running in realtime.
Finishing FBX import - yeah, this is actually more a bugfix, as an FBX importer that can't import animated FBX models with all their materials properly isn't really 100% functional

This alone would be enough to create any Fear / FarCry styled game for now, and with clever LUA scripting by the developer even more.

AI ... Even under big trees they can not navigate right at the moment.
Sometimes they not move at all...

Performance, performance ... DX11... Visuals... Anti Aliasing...

I think I tend to agree with the community. Once things are started they need to completed fully. I did not vote for the EBE either but it will be a welcome addition that I am sure I and others will find useful. And to not stay the course would be a total waste of Lee's time, as well as those of us in the community who voted differently. Supplementary to the EBE there needs to be some basic improvements to AI at least enough so that they can navigate different heights. DX11 needs to be finished off too, it was started and left on the back burner. Personally I would do away with a voting board or at least as Lee suggested have a refresh timer for voting. I would put an even shorter timer instead of 90, more like 30, this would ensure that those who are truly serious about their vote will be checking back on a regular basis and keeping themselves up to date with progress. Maybe Lee could add a 'percentage complete' for each feature he is working on so that the community can see an estimated completion time? Performance is also a big thing for me too what's the point in having such a large map if we can't utilise it properly etc. Sometime to me it feels like the 'basic' game maker not the 'easy' game maker, it's ok to mess about in, but at the moment it's not quite there to do anything serious. Lee always says you can make game in 'minutes' and he's right in away because at the moment you can't really do much else. I love Game Guru and I want it to go far, but I find myself being able to do more in old FPSC classic, since it went open source...

Just going to say this this then I am done, not going to argue on it and certainly not going to waste my time on this throwing around opinions on such trivial 'features'.

If your going to consider fbx import for animated models that is fine, but when you exclusively refer to Fuse models import (actually third party character generator software) then I think your going off the rails....a lot. You sure don't need a character creator then (unfinished anyhow), so you need to make your mind up one way or the other before wasting more time on this. I don't care for it, this is a game engine and import is important but don't go confusing things further by concentrating on fbx import for a third party software. I have no issues with .x I don't see why others do, I sure don't need a half dozen programs to create a working .x for rigged or vertex animated models when one program does the job, got no idea why others do. But apparently they must as it has been a common complaint throughout development.

I don't care much either for individual needs being thrown into the mix now by users that weren't a requirement a month ago, scripters want this and artists want that, only something of use to the community as a whole should be considered. If you feel the EBE needs more then fine say so, but to expect more from this than a basic method to brush create interiors then I think it becomes a modeling app, In fact it is beginning to look like features not even in a modeling app are being requested now. Far as I am concerned it is done, apart from save and load for EBE builds, and anything else is just fluff. If you want to add detail to indoor levels then that is what entities are for.
This is a game engine for creating games if you want outstanding features then go to the modeling app forums and ask on there.

Radar? is this a joke? .
Flashlight? Give me a break.
Add screen grabbing for save/load...I am lost for words.

Really...you should cancel all votes on the voting list right now and then start afresh with your 90 days idea, as currently most of those votes probably come from users who dropped off long ago. Just look around and you will see how many actually follow development, you got around twenty maybe thirty users who regularly post here with their views on things and that's it. I could count new users who post about development on one hand at any given time. But I would need a calculator to count the whiners.


Personally I am going drop this engine for a while as it is a frustration to me going round in circles and seeing new ones added all the time. Fix the performance issues, fix the graphic quality, fix the lack of scripting control and most then fix the damage done with poor implementation of half finished features which doesn't satisfy users needs at all in an attempt at appeasing the voting board


Wish you all luck...rolfy.

@rolfy Sit back enjoy the song I feel the same way.

I'm also dropping GameGuru temporarily and will be back maybe this time next year as I will be on contract for the next year partly abroad and here in the UK. So I'm not going to be doing much with GameGuru during that time, not that I've actually achieved anything much with it anyway.
I say get rid of the dreaded voting board, concentrate on important mechanics of the engine that will actually add gameplay, but that's just my thought.
Add bells/whistles later such as DX11.
[edited for clarity- Have to say I prefer .X format from a programmer/programming point of view and in terms of what I've been working on over the last year or so.]

i agree with you here, although the flickering torchlight shadow is a good one. fbx why use it if fixing character creator? maybe a total switch at some point but for now x works, and there are a million more important things needed before fbx, and also the entire back catalogur of models needing switching a nightmare alone, x11 before a format change. just hurry with ebe i never paid a for waiting a year for something that was an idea later on.



and DEFINATELY reset the vote sytem after 90 days this will ride out all the tourists and the half measured attempts at voting. starting from next week

Wait what? Seriously, Do you understand how limited .X format is, actual polygon limits and vertices limits, and list as long as my arm, it was introduced in DirectX version 2.0, it is so out of date, new directX versions only offer legacy support, it doesn't even actively update the format any more.But you want a dead format, that most model editors don't actively try and support any more, over a cross platform format, okay then sure, whatever. The only reason why we are still using it, was due to darkbasic code, and how quickly in general directx deals with meshes and such.All things considered I have had more issue with the format, that I care to list, the list of cuss words would make people blush......Seriously.
It's about time the format is dragged to a dark back alley, turn upside down, and it's pockets searched for loose polygons, beaten and left pants and face down in a gutter........That said I would have preferred COLLADA over FBX, and the actual voting description said lots of formats like .obj ect, so even that is a half implemented feature.....

This is why I feel rolfy's pain, some requests being entirely backwards.

FBX is not only industry-standard (yes, it is, and in most AAA productions the only format accepted in the pipeline), it is also Indie standard now, thanks to Unity & Unreal supporting and pushing it.

I think the vast majority of those who are active voices on the forums have voted differently to the voting board. Relatively speaking I am a new comer, but I see the wisdom in these voices and they make more sense than what the 'voting board' says. I have firmly left my vote in the 'performance' category and there it will sit until I feel Game Guru has the enough power to even make something that can run a decent framerate before adding all the 'bells and whistles'. A lot of complaints I see with games made in Game Guru is that the games run at poor framerates, even on relatively high end machines. I see complaint after complaint about 'why does the game run so slow with graphics that look 10 years old?' A voting board over hall is something that needs to be looked at is something I agree with.

EDIT:
Wow - this is taking a bad turn. when you have the likes of Rolfy jumping ship, it seams the voting board has really ruffled some feathers.



Reliquia..

I agree that what has been started needs to be finished, but a voting reset after a number of days would be welcome. If only to get rid of those who 'vote and forget' or those who don't visit the site that often, this way it would encourage the community to be more engaged and active with development rather than just be completely passive. I could also encourage more people to the forums to 'vent their anger' (just kidding) lol

Love the list, although there are some features might be added, ie: player water intereaction, the ability to change texture in testmode/game, etc.

Anyway you should complete EBE task, firts because non more unfinished features, second because you are pretty closest to complete it, and also you need to provide the ability to save when done.

That list is quite important to get rid of the bad reputation, that stigmatize software as unfinished features.
Just my thoughts.

3com

@ Lee. I wasn't implying you were lazy, just too busy trying to flit from one feature to the next. If you put a hold on the EBE and started on something else that would only solidify the point I was trying to make. Get it finished. To a point people will be (mostly) happy with. I was actually pointing out mistakes from the past here and not really trying to push for anything in particular.

@Rolfy. I am sure you have no issues using 3DS max to make your characters. However, most of us can't afford that luxury and also are not 3D artists as you are. Importing fuse models is one way for us non artists to get more custom characters in. Being a one man team always means you have to do things you aren't as good at. I refuse to have mutant blob men in my game and that is pretty much what they would be if I had to use Blender and model them myself. Tools like fuse are a big help and in my opinion the way the industry is going (I imagine for games such as GTA this way of making lot's of characters quickly and easily is a must). I am merely stating what would make GG more useful to me. FBX import has been in progress for as long as the EBE as such and could do with completing as well.

Lastly, no-one can prefer .x to FBX, not if the're being logical. FBX is the standard these days, .x is old and pretty much unsupported now. Why is it that virtually no program like Fuse can be used with GG? Because they do not support .x. Meaning you have to find some way to convert between different formats to actually get it into GG. If GG was ever to go a different route to Direct X which I doubt, but you never know, I imagine .x would be a fairly useless format. Converting model formats is never a great option and generally can cause problems.

I agree and disagree with something things being said here but this is how the voting broad got here in the first place. you all wanted it so you got it now you all complain about it and don't want it. I can tell you I seen this coming and already knew who would vote for things like the EBE\segment system lol. I am at point I am done with asking for some things as it is clear to me it will not get done no time soon. All I really wanted was a finished 3rd person with complete control over projectile system. not really asking for a new feature or something crazy. I just wanted more game play mechanics so I can show off what guru can do better than graphics. now days things like graphics don't matter that much if you look around at what type games are being made. As a indie developer I am just about making something fun and that can hold it's own. the performance in guru is good for me and I have clear understanding how to utilize it. also I feel Platformer Games would have been nice to have now sense it can add to some game making creativity for different type of game play. I am not asking for this anymore or want it as bad as I use to because I learn how to work with what I got in guru and it is clear to me no one wants to make fun games here. The way see it EBE is just easy to use level development tool and is not about game play or add any fun to it. plus it is one of those feature that will take longer than expected. it will not challenge the gamer like a good Ai system would. A strong Ai is a must because it to can add to the game play and keep the gamer on his or her toes when trying to challenge the Ai. the less limited the Ai is the higher the game fun factor is. guru is at the point it needs small update like this and not long draw out updates like the EBE. plus another thing about the EBE it will eat up more draw calls than a normal building would made by a modeller from the store. which will lead to performance problems. now I'm trying to talk anyone out of the EBE but more of giving a sense of an idea of what should be voted for and what can bring more interest to this game engine. Half of things on the voting broad can be done by scripters and opening up Lua more. there are also things we should not be allow to vote for on the voting broad and should be left up to Lee when he feels it is time the bring those things to the engine.

Honestly if I were Lee I'd have made the EBE an add-on product and sold it for another 15-20 dollars for exactly the reason that Rolfy said - it's becoming more like a model editor.

I mean realistically I'm used to bare-bones and making it work. With Acknex you bought varying degrees of product ranging from very cheap (Free, even) to 'premium, professional' at 800 dollars (including support). Thing is though - the bare bones were COMPLETE. They had updated function.

I'm constantly hearing about how Lee is a one man team and that's probably because he can't afford to hire another dev.
Well, he probably could if he delegated all these extra components (character creator premium! EBE premium!) to their own modular pieces which could be spun off and managed separately.

It would streamline the engine, while allowing people to focus their budgets on what they want and need. I mean if Rolfy doesn't need FBX support but others do - if some can make do with just a basic importer while others want more advanced high end features - why shouldn't that be broken off? I mean I get that FBX is an industry standard, I do. I'm just using it for sake of example.

What I want mirrors what a lot of other users want:
Core game engine functionality - Lighting resembling something from this decade. Shaders of reasonable quality. Decals, *BASIC* particle effects. Things that you EXPECT from a game engine. Functional AI. Event-driven game design. I am deeply disappointed those are not available currently. I wouldn't be opposed to those being broken out to various 'enhanced' portions to purchase as well.

I really couldn't care less about EBE, Character Creator, etc. I realize, however, those are important features for many people. I'm no artist myself; my limited works on the store are about the extent of what I can manage. Even then, I find myself grossly disappointed with the end results because of the renderer's output and modification of my terrains/skies. Putting it on 'highest' just makes me shake my head and throw my keyboard in disgust.

Anyways I applaud Lee for managing to get this far as a one man show and more so even for taking the criticism standing up. I know it's not easy to have people hitting your ideas with a hammer, but sometimes it helps really expose to weaknesses in the metal, so to speak. So kudos to you for being willing to thrust yourself upon the anvil of ideas.

And Rolfy - if you are truly out for good, that's a crying shame - you are a formidable force around here.

I've got to agree here, poor Lee is running around like a headless chicken trying to implement everything everyone wants, making them "just acceptable" before being ushered onto the next thing.

Personally I think there should be a "Game Guru Suite" of programs like the EBE, Character Creator, GG LUA editor, etc, that way everything doesn't have to be built in and could possibly be farmed out to other developers.

Agreed lets finish EBE and AI then re assess the situation ....
Arguing now waiting around is more time wasting and more unfinished items ...

Looks like I need to clarify a couple of things.

I never said I I was satisfied with .x, I said I have no problems using it, at least for now. It might surprise some to know that 3dsMax has no proprietary .x exporter. It has a third party plug in exporter, just like most other modeling apps. I would be happy to have fbx import but where I get frustrated is when a third party software is mentioned as the standard for import, there are several fbx import variations, mostly changes every year and this is why Lee hasn't been able to drop it into GG in any sense that will make it work out of the box. If you get specific with fbx import like this you might find it only of use for Fuse models and not much else, it is a hit and miss affair which to me will be wasting more development time around here for the majority of users.

I fail to see the argument against .x being about poly or vertex limitations for a game engine which shouldn't and doesn't handle excessively high poly models, if your model is under 30,000 faces it will go into GG but won't lightmap properly, how many poly's do you wan't? The argument seems to be about the .x export pipeline yet I see many users who use Milkshape and Fragmotion but not heard any complain that these don't work in GG so without any detailed explanation as to why some have issues with exporting .x I can't say whether they are having problem with settings or not, if you export/import through several programs you will find data gets lost somewhere or translated into mush.

My real problem here is with Lee, yes Lee.....you have been back on board around here for a couple of weeks after a four week absence which was understandable given you have other products, I can understand the reasons. But now instead of informing users of any further progress on the EBE or any kind of development on GG whatever, you are asking if they would like this or that feature dealt with in such and such a way. You are here asking how best to improve mundane and pointless features and how to improve a mundane pointless voting system. Yes, it is pointless as it seems to me that finishing up things rather than just stirring up yet another debate on past unfinished work comes across as a smokescreen for inactivity.

No point in coming out now and saying..."I have done this or that", you should have done this instead of stirring the pot over arguments that heave been raging on these forums for a long time now. Do I come across as pissed? Well that's because I am, I am fed up with twiddling my thumbs waiting for things to happen and when they do I am disappointed in results because they are far from complete.

Lets be straight here, I have always made the most of your software and always supported you by proving many nay sayers wrong just like many others around here. But it's become increasingly frustrating and tedious, not so much because of unfinished features but because of missing core functionality any game engine requires. Many of the long term users have said again and again what is needed but it seems to be lost in the clamor to make GG 'easy to use' . Yes make it easy to use but remember the core comes first then the 'ease of use', otherwise you got a toy with a game engine underlying instead of a game engine with a friendly user interface.

I agree with a lot of things here,mainly stick to One thing at a time and finish it.But I have learned over the years (I have been around the community since 2002) this is not going to happen.i can wait a little longer .

Dave

Of course we are forgetting one thing as well ...
This is no longer our little community ... things have changed since fspc
There are now thousands of unforgiving steam users that have expectations

I guess that shuts me up P.S. I will post again when I have something new to report.

Well the forum traffics increased ..... That's a good thing
Ummm ok

Honestly it's better for it to burn bright and hot at this point than to dim and fade quietly into the night, so yeah.

Cor. Anyone want a beer? I'll buy (first round

for all.

for those who dont drink.

I want to add 100000K polygons, I want to be able to to do, yes which game has a 100k polygon model, it's the principle that there is imposed limits, constantly have to adjust do this or do that to save here and save there I am TIRED off it, period.

What about gameguru, and model editors flipping the textures, I have a massive problem in that every model I export directly to X format needs the uvs flipped and adjusted, rechecked and export, when I export to .obj format, I need to manually import make sure the textures are assigned and export to X file. X file results in And, and, and, and, and, and I AM TIRED OFF IT.

I AM TIRED of having to keep 100's of scene files on hand just in case I need to make changes, as 99% of the time you can't import a X file without serious issues especially when animated, I AM TIRED of having to keep several tools on hand to do it.

I have been forced to do the whole obj file assign textures export to X for 10 odd years, I AM TIRED of it, just once I want export and import hassle free no questions asked.Instead I am being sheepishly indirectly attacked for mentioning that there is vertex and polygon limits, when there are far more serious issues with the format, a DEAD format at that.

You are frustrated no doubt, but don't take it out on me, I am not a fly by night, I have as much right to complain about some thing silly as polygon limits and vertex limits as you have the right to complain about core features missing, whether or not objective or otherwise.

FBX in general has far more benefits then drawbacks, so what if the file format gets updated regularly, it's the dead formats that halts progress.You are aware you can actually in most decent software select the FBX format you want to export to.It's really a none issue at best, even if lee doesn't manage to get to update it all that often.

Otherwise I have to agree, lee is running around like a headless chicken only half implementing features and leaving it at that, I am not even going to mention EBE as that turned into an entirely new mess, and properly disappointed lee didn't use the octree route, while half implementing the idea of octree, EBE in it self is a completely and utterly waste of good development time , I am done head butting with lee on that topic it is what it is, the end.

The only thing lee did to the isometric feature was fix the camera issue, and while lee did this to enable the sale of isometric content which I am grateful for, why was it signed off as a done job on the feature board, fixing the camera doesn't justify as being a completed feature.

The format import had a lot more to it then just static mesh imports, but also job done.

Same thing is going to happen with EBE, first version and then hopefully a revision 2 years later, by which point is will be useless.With EBE making it's way to the software, lee has spoken about the composite entity, which is perfect for EBE, and shouldn't have been implemented with EBE as they go hand in hand to ultimately reduce draw calls.

Gameguru is marred by seriously bad decisions in general, launching on steam and then taking it out of beta stage was probably the worst .

So have a couple of cold ones, take a week or a month, perhaps you will feel slightly better then.....if not good luck with what ever venture you choose in the meantime.

I think most long time users are tired of having to constantly bicker, moan, and fight to get any thing useful done we shouldn't have to, but here we are, I have asked lee on a couple of occasions, we can't keep on butting heads, it isn't healthy....and again butting heads, wholly unneeded some thing needs to give.....what I don't know, but this trend is unproductive.....

It,s always only a matter of time before the " you know what " eventually hits
the fan. I personally think it should have hit it a long time ago, and maybe
the majority of us early backers think a similar way ?.



I've got mine thanks, you can buy the second round.

Ok enoughs enough ....
Despite the fact we all have our own opinions I'm not letting this turn into a " Lets have a go at Lee fest "
If its not constructive to GameGuru ... Do Not Post !!

Have to agree here
(Constructive) is what we need.

Dave

I've got one too (burps) @ rolfy nah m8 you carnt ditch us your too good i do agree and always have agreed that the core comes first, the fuse thing well ive used fuse a lot lately and converted them over to GG, But as and when the CC becomes better i'll happily use that.
I do buy a lot of models you guys make also. Personally from my own experience making games with GG has been up and down partially because i maybe set my targets too high and me like alot of you are 1 man bands and my scripting is crap :/ so i have to beg help with that. But i do understand that Lee also does a lot of this on his own and I'm sure ends up looking for a long rope a lot of the time (I know i do) but the new day brings new things i do agree with you guys on the voting board = pants as some features get pushed before they are actually ready and so cause mayhem i really think Lee should just say right ok "NO" I'm going to get the engine into place and sod you lot (i would).
Im also greatful that he and others have taken the time to release a pack of assets for "free" also Moshroom has been hard at work trying to bring his scripts inline with GG to make sure they work and tbh god knows why everyone charges next to nothing for this (so thanks m8 for that) I just think as I've said before @ Lee concentrate on your engine m8 scripters do what you do best, Modellers ditto i dont mind buying your stuff. Ignore the div's winging about this and that get a decent core in place. Well thats my 5 pence worth i actually like GG and want to see it grow and get better

Agree with that one for sure.

Edit
By the way watched a couple of tutorials on working with CryEngine at work yesterday (it gets boring at the Arts Centre sometimes) and all I can say is @Lee Bamber, you definitely have something special here. Just keep plugging away at it.


Reliquia....

Obviously Lee does have that power .... But tends to worry more about what others want than what needs to be done.
He cant keep everyone happy despite his best efforts .... I tend to agree ... a more aggressive " This is whats next " maybe the answer .

I'm one of them, bought two copies including the content available.
The limitations were apparent quite fast although some decent scripts were available at the store, in particular the interactive starter pack from Rolfy, the puzzlebooks, scripts from Acid and some scripts from Moshroom.

This should help me a lot to get somewhere despite the other shortfall such as light and water interaction.
What i have not tried yet is to make and insert other levels that will be part of the game.

Considering the amount of content that is available in the unlimited package, €132 is not very expensive, in fact cheap.
Not only that, it is also very accessible for people with limited knowledge on programming, that in my view is a very strong point compared to other game engines.
Hence i do not regret buying two copies of GG but would love some decent ai and to have more possibilities than shooting games.

Overall GG is something i would recommend because it offers much despite it being an unfinished product.

Without trying to be clever,....perhaps the frustrations that are coming out in this thread in "straight
talking ways " may just be the most constructive things Lee will ever hear,...for the benefit of the
community and GG as well ?.
Just a thought.

Not a good one .... Lee posted his response ..... Its over as far as that goes ..

I think this whole thread has been good for Lee to read,with all opinions put forward .He can take a lot from this as to what people really want (as long as it stays sensible)

Dave

Well I,m sorry you don't think so,....but no hard feelings at my end.
Time will tell,.....as always.

Ok time to hit the sarcasm button ..... You just wont drop it ...

For goodness sake syncro,...no one is being sarcastic here,...we are just expressing
our own individual feelings after three years with GG.
Yes, frustrations are coming out in this thread, and rightly so,...but this is no disrespect
to Lee,...he does his best as a " one man show " so to speak.
This is not about " Lee bashing " it is about getting priorities right,..without the core/ essential
game engine basics in place first, the bells and whistles on the voting board have no
meaning,...I think that is all people are trying to say here.

As a product, perhaps GameGuru needs more than just one person developing it.

One recurring theme of many of the threads on this board is the fact that GameGuru is effectively a one man show. Lee has done a great job in bringing the product this far, but maybe for TGC now would be a good time to take stock of where they want this product to go. At the current rate of development, it will be many more years before we have a robust feature set that most other engines already take for granted. For the hobbyist, perhaps this is not an issue, but for those who want to realise their visions anytime soon, it is frustrating. Perhaps it is time for TGC to decide whether they want to make GameGuru a visionary development system, or, whether we stay on this course and meander down the slow running backwater I feel that this product has become. Does GameGuru need more funding to achieve its promise?

I remember not that long ago GG had 3 coders working on it. It went down to 2 after work on the construction kit was dropped. Now it seems we are back to 1, with Ravey on some other task. I can understand this, eggs in one basket and all.

Now AGK, is pretty decent and seems fairly solid. I'm sure regular AGK users may disagree of course If Ravey and Mike? Been awhile so not 100% sure. If they were both to spend a month or 2 helping Lee with GG, as he has done with AGK, perhaps we may get a decent little boost in the core of GG.

Really, GG is getting better all the time. It is close to becoming a brilliant tool for making games. We just need some of those little things finishing properly. More speed with high poly counts. Better AI. 3rd Person control to be improved. Better importing models and characters. Faster loading times. More lua commands. Lighting. More shaders and the ability to change them on the fly.

We've been waiting years. Much of that time seems to have been spent on features we don't have (remember the time spent on quad support, only for it to be dropped as it yielded no performance benefits?) I know that is the nature of dev work, but it seems a shame that these things weren't completed. Why is it a 3rd party dev could add quad support in DB, which worked a treat and TGC seem to have issues with the same beast? Sometimes reinventing the wheel is not the best idea, and finding people who have spent lots of time already in that area might be a better option. I spent a period of time talking to the dev who made the quad support addon while working on a 3D physics game using his physics addon. He seemed a nice chap, very helpful and I am quite sure he would have been happy to help TGC out here for pennies in comparison to the usual rate (I could be wrong of course!).

I can complain a lot here. I only do it to try to improve GG in the long run. I'd be quite happy for GG to sell several million units and make Lee a fortune. As long as he doesn't drop it and go live on a tropical island afterwards!

perhaps lee could make a statement to what he intends to do from this point.
and what plans he will make now regarding GG.
and what direction he would like to go regarding development and the voting board.
does lee have any ideas as to what new plans he has in mind.
now the community has ruffled his feathers , i hope lee will make an announcement
that is logical and informative. we all know the games creators has been most of his life
and a long work in progress. we all want GG to be a success as many of us have been
following tgc for a long time, it is sad that some members are thinking of leaving.
after all the time they have held the community together and supported the products
for years. i hope lee can help hold the community together, with some sort of announcement
hopefully a positive direction in development that the community are looking for.

I don't actually agree, at least for myself. I was perfectly fine back in the day when Lee was running his development blog, with the direction he was going with the product. I've also trusted Lee and only Lee when it came to good decisions. But it seemed over time he was being influenced or perhaps even told to work on other things which distracted from the overall purpose of Reloaded. I remember times where it seemed we were even being purposely kept in the dark and the blog was shifted to the website with certain development progress screenshots being removed -- by someone else's request and advice in TGC. I was very comfortable with the progress of FPSC Reloaded... then everything changed when it became GG overnight. I think the voting board than served as a way for getting new comers what they wanted as GG was getting enough sustainable funding. But I don't see many of these people around today. So for all of us who have been in it for the long haul its been a waiting game.

When the voting board was introduced i had my concerns but also felt maybe this is what will actually get GG back on track. But instead many features were being voted for which didn't tackle the under-lining issues that GG still has. I thought the idea of some of those things listed being called features were quite humorous.

@Teabone well I am not going to fight Lee on this or try to talk him out of what he is working now. I am just going to accept the voting broad for what it is. but my ideal was for Lee to just do what's on the top then pick what he feel should be next or easy to work on that will take less time for him to code. that way he is still in control of what goes in the engine. I personally voted for one thing but now I have no need for it anymore. yes most things are either done by lua or can be done by lua. look at the radar feature it is use from lua. the compass are almost like the same thing the compass can be done by lua if all the command are there to do it. I think we all can make this a better engine by help out. this is a really good game engine and don't need any parts from other engine to make it complete. just need that TLC.lol

@ Lee I love what you done so far with guru but hate to see it go down hill because of what other people compare it to. it's game guru and that all it needs to be. get the EBE and performance done and keep on sneaking in those lua commands.

Well for comparison with Unity & Unreal engines I believe Game guru is about, "ease of use"
before quality of graphics.

With a game engine based on "ease of use", you will have more hobbyists & tinkerers than developers
using it.

All other "ease of use" game engines that i have researched are just promises & 2D, only Game Guru
delivers a 3D "ease of use" game engine.

It would be fantastic to have more but for that to happen in a time frame to keep developers happy would require
more coders working on the produce which would require people to put $$$ into it.

Anyway I've been buying Lee's stuff since the original game engine before FPSC and it's taken quite a while to
get to now where I am a happy little pig in a mud bath tinkering with Game Guru.

I completely agree with that approach.

I don't know why but the "easy game maker" tagline has never sit well with me. I recently started using Unreal and to be quite honest... its easy to use. It even comes with templates for FPS or 3rd person. You can drop in assets easily. Even drop a texture on them. Assign shaders and see real-time physical, skydome scrolls and particles (birth and deaths) within the editor. all this time I was overly intimidated but it truly is an easy to use game maker so far. You get an assets tree too so its easy to find everything you have put within your level. GG doesn't seem to have an easy or user-friendly way of doing this, presently.

I think to really make the "easy game maker" tagline shine, is to present the user with template options whenever they open GG. The 3rd person template would simply load a blank map with a character linked to the start marker. FPS would be a standard blank map. Make it visual and simple.



Just an idea.

yes udk and unity both are not hard to use for me. I just hate their map editor and set up. even if I could get over that ideal of them I would have to learn them and start over again on getting use to a new game engine and by the time I reach the point I feel comfortable using one of them guru will be where it should be. just like right I had two projects for fpsc. I now decide to cancel them for guru and other reason of discovering some outdated issues. all in all I love the guru editor system and it did not stray far from fpsc set up which is a good thing for me. I'm use to guru and have a complete understand how it works and how to work around some bugs and issues.

but the problem is not the fact guru is not easy to use. it is that it lacks what all other engines have already have in them but this is not Lee fault as we need to consider that game guru is build from the ground up like all engine was at one point at the beginning of their time. unity and udk have been around for a decade. so like everything in the world that has gain experience with a time line like this. they will have more of advantage over guru because they are year in the making. this is guru disadvantage but in time and commitment it will be close or just as good of a game engine like them. but guru have to be in it's own league for right now because it is just starting out. three years is nothing compare to the time the other engines have been out. Lee made his mistakes by going by what we wanted first keeping the engine in DX9 because of windows XP and fpsc x10 vista. the DX11 upgrade will delay things even more because it will be another re-write like the c++. the direction guru should have been straight forward from the beginning DX11 and C++ no matter what OS anyone is using . they try that with fpscX10 and it failed. but they should not have been afraid to take that chance this time around as everyone knows windows 7 is way better then vista and XP put together. but the understanding of this should have been you can't please everyone those you may have lost in the beginning will come back around again when the engine is mature and strong. Lee needs to throw out the chatter and stop stumbling on new ideas for the community. guru needs to be it own engine and fits where it belongs as that. the voting should just be an idea of what this engine will have in the future and the forum community should be about supporting no matter what.

I'm not jumping ship or leaving this engine and I can not compare it to other engines knowing this engine is still at the beginning of it life span. the only thing I don't like is the delays and being pulled from this engine to work on AGK. this is another reason why I felt this engine is too cheap while AGK is $80 to $100 so I can see why they would support their bread butter. people complain about price tags but don't understand the time it takes and bills the creator have to pay. you can't be on a payroll if there is no money coming in. the same will go for us if someone feel our game is not worth the price tag but don't consider that the developer took out time and money to creator a good game. people complain all the time they don't want to pay $60 for a game the took waaaaaaay more money to make. this is AAA games I'm talking about. video games and software has came a long way since the beginning. Consider this next time you buy a game or watch a movie that it took a lot of time and money develop something for you to enjoy. the same goes for guru this is not a billion dollar company with 100s of workers. this TGC that is giving us a choice of what we want and $20 dollars only add up to the nickle and dimes you save up in a piggy bank. all goes towards development and keeps Lee in the hot seat of adding features. I am happy gold member and glad I payed more for this engine from the beginning. so a lot needs to be consider here before jumping ship and thinking the grass is greener on the other side when it is not. think about it if we all did not need this game engine then why did we ask for it in the first place. I personally will forget why and know what I don't want to use my developing time on. so i willing to give this time as i consider the fact that fpsc took five years to develop and guru is in other ways far ahead than fpsc was in the first version. it is just the useless things that is holding this development back.

I have stuck with GameGuru, despite the insanity of some of the things on the voting board, even the EBE taking priority over decent AI hasn't yet broke me. But Menu-Editing? what is that about.

@Teabone: Its an illusion buddy. I've been there back in UDK days. Setting up a character was easy, making good looking maps was time consuming but also surprisingly easy... but then: Setting up animated objects and getting basic gameplay to work took me ages!! This is where I believe GG really shines.


...and then you have an entitled 18 year old in front of you, who was on his phone half the movie yell "suuuucks" on the top of his lungs in the theater.
But you are right of course



-Wolf