The more I work with this and the more I continue to crave more features, more scripting, more control, etc., the more I think that FPSCR should have been built on top of another engine like Unity 3D. The Dark AI, the prefabs, the waypoint system, etc. These could all have been made as add-ons to Unity 3D and sold in the asset store. You already have a AAA engine in Unity 3D, a world-class editor, multi-language scripting flexibility, dozens and dozens of awesome plugins and model assets, etc.



I mean, what makes FPSCR unique? Take those elements and make them a plug-in to Unity3D. So, instead of spending endless hours trying to get normal maps working right, occlusion culling, shadows, multi-model format imports, etc. you could be focusing on what makes FPSCR unique and easy to use from a game design perspective.



And if you ask me if I'd rather have you scrap what you've done so far and do this I'll actually say yes this time. Because I truly believe that you'd have a better product faster when it's all said and done.



But what about cost you say? There is a free Unity3D and you can make your add-ons work with the free version. Those that can afford a license can upgrade to pro for $1,500. Anyway, who needs to upgrade unless you have a game that you can sell? And if you have a game that is worthy of selling then you can probably raise $1,500 on Kickstarter or Indiegogo with what you've developed already.



Anyone else agree?

That being the case...I had just as well go to Unity now and forget FPSC..

I can do all of that with unity as it stands if I learn like everyone else.







It just isn't that simple....I have seen awesome kickstarters fail...Reloaded did for starters...Im not sure many would be willing to wait a couple more years yet again for another FPS Creator .. and that's not what I signed up for..



Just my thoughts

I'm not trying to get people to jump ship. I really think FPSCR could be awesome if done right, but they seem to be stuck on getting the fundamentals right. And when I say scrap everything, I don't really mean start from scratch. Code can be ported and wouldn't be lost. It would just end up as plug-ins in another engine.



I love the idea of FPSCR and I wish it would finally mature and be what it can be, but after all these years we're still stuck with the worst editor I've ever seen and focus is on making stuff that is already way better in other engines.



Now, you can't just make an FPS game in Unity as quickly as FPSCR and so that's where the focus should go. Into making a great engine like Unity into an awesome FPS Creator like FPSCR.

But that's kind of the point. We are waiting that long now for something that currently has a substandard editor and severely lacking in core functionality. My point is that they could build the unique features of FPSCR onto an engine like Unity3D (or something similar) and do it in LESS time, even starting from this point forward. From day one, you'd have a better engine. You could probably integrate Dark AI into Unity 3D in a very short period of time.



Anyway, there's something about FPSC that keeps me coming back and hoping they'll get it right, but so far it is falling short.

I can agree with many of your points. After all, the better portion of these past 18 months has been spent reinventing wheels at the lowest level just to properly render and light scenes while striving for adequate performance.



Personally, with the understanding that FPSC:R is essentially a near total rewrite from scratch in DBPro already, I would have gone the route of redeveloping the engine in AGK rather than the obsolete and unsupported DBP (assuming TGC would still want to stick to internal ground-up development and not build upon an existing third party FPS engine). By developing in AGK rather than DBP, they would have a fast OpenGL/OpenGL ES engine with easy portability to all platforms. At the same time AGK would progress substantially, thus solidifying both of TGCs current flagship products and the only ones for which they are still supporting. Instead, as far as I know FPSC:R will always exist only as a Windows product via DirectX 9.

Hi,



You raise an interesting topic and there's always more ways to skin a cat. Yes it's taken us a lot longer to get where we are and there's still lots more we want to do. We're in this for the long term and we've focused most of our business on this one product.



TGC prefer to control the whole engine and not rely on third parties. By owning the engine we can offer our users the ability to save their game standalone with no other license fees.



We feel we have dealt with many of the core engine issues. You will see in V1.007 the LUA system in place for the first time and this will provide lots of power to you.



We also want to speed the development forward even faster and have some plans to help do that. Some times though it's best to get the core right before adding more and more features. We feel it's best we keep fine tuning what we're doing so you get the best results from Reloaded.



A project of this size is no easy trip and it takes time. We are of course thankful to all who have backed us and we're doing all we can to move it forward in a constructive and positive way.



We do realise there are other engines out there but we're focusing on what we believe will be the easiest and most powerful FPS Creator ever.



In summary, we hear your frustrations and just ask you to be a bit more patient with us.



Rick

Whats being asked for here is and engine like Unity but like Reloaded at the same time.



Agreed - indie users want everything at their finger tips and they want it now so they can make an advanced game that such a non existant engine would provide so as to make their advanced game now without having to wait. Its not going to happen I am afraid in this world currently.



What is asked for is an all singing all dancing answer to the indie game makers dream and that's just what it is for he moment.



Ideally Yes we want - advanced - all platform. Easy to use at the click of a button. Easy access to all media and content we need so we can just get on and make our game - now as always. No bugs, no issues, no restrictions. We want a magic solution to each and every individuals game making idea and above all we want it Cheap and don't want any problems at all. We don't want to pay royalties either as we are not likely to sell many games.



Its a little contradictory reasoning that you can have everything to suit everyone all in one thing and have it now and cheap. Good things take a lot of many kinds of resources to achieve.



You can have an advanced engine like Unity - by the nature of that it makes it hard to use overall requiring may skills to make a game and get the best out of it. A lot of effort and everything else is required to make a great game with engines like it despite the fact that they yes have a level of maturity, stability and efficiency.



Reloaded is the only engine you can make a game with in a day. It is not comparable with anything else for that reason. It still has a long way to go to become mature offering a wider range of features and that will and would be the case with any engine development no matter how it was developed. It will never be easy to make such a piece of software as the majority of indie users need and want as they want well - everything in its capabilities and easy to use and cheap. No easy task especially for a small company like TGC.



Reloaded is already a serious advance on previous versions. V1.07 will be here shortly and that is one more milestone. TGC are looking after the core engine and good progress is well under way now. AI is now the focus of attention whilst maintaining and improving continually if possible performance. The right approach.



1.7 you should find will reach or pass another milestone and so development will move to more of what you look for. Long job - one thing at a time. No magic wand I am afraid.



It is progressing and patience is required as it cant be done any faster than it is.



Personally I am relatively happy with Reloaded and have to say it is better than I expected it to be and offers more than I had hoped for with still a lot more to come yet. I had not expected Reloaded to get where it is today so take my hat off to TGC and everyone else here who has supported it.



Its not a Unity and mot intended to be though I have no doubt we will see some great games made with it.

I also purchased Leadwerks Game engine.. ( Mainly because I thought I could export the maps and import them into Reloaded like Leadwerks 3D Studio ) however it advertises " Easily make your own 3D Games etc "



1..Very complex and not easy at all to make 3D Games

2..The Promotional Video you see is about it....One enemy..one Gun...Hardly any assets supplied ..The community are supposed to make their own.

3..It has worse issues than reloaded ( Sluggish etc ) and updates have been almost non existent over the last 6 months.

4..Creating mobile and android games have been dropped so that cheesed a lot of customers off.



Basicly my point is...Other engines may look good but are not so user friendly. Most here could make a level in 20 mins that would take months with Leadwerks and that's why I bought it....At most all I need to do is create my own models to make my game personal and Reloaded is getting better with every release and future incorporations are looking good..



One final thing...Reloaded does exactly what it says on the tin !!

Unlike others that make you belive you can create easy games out of the box..



If in the future Lee decided to create an enhanced edition alongside Reloaded then I would be first to go for Gold again.

I agree with synchromesh about Leadwerks! and you wont find anything like reloaded its easy to work with dont get me wrong the

performance could be alot better but i believe this will come with time as its being developed faster rather than later i hope

I love reloaded for its ease of use, the fact that code knowledge needed is minimum and it has an asset store for models. what I don't like is unity3d. way to much coding involved. so please tgc continue onwards towards the goals you have and try not to end up like unity3d!!. yeah reloaded has issues, issues that will hopefully get resolved sooner than later, and im more than happy to wait for those future fixes to the issues.



I have spent long hours looking around for finished engines and tbh not many out there that are like this 1, leadwerks looks good but it comes with nothing in it really, and others charge a lot or have a high share of finished games revenue. all in all I think this 1 is suitable for my needs the most and I for 1 would not wish to rush them making it because that just spoils the end product.



yes the editor needs some tlc, and a new view from the side, hierarchy management of assets and some other features for editing the scenes.. but it is early in its beta release still and I think the community will see this in later editions of the reloaded engine, give the guys a chance to work out the performance and add the lua/ai improvements though as this is better finished and done than stepping off and going to other areas just because some view it as taking to long.. why add pressure on them to finish quicker and ruin a good thing.

@almightyhood :



Some great points there...Reloaded is in a league of its own and its still early days...Minimum scripting Knowledge required...Fast 3D game creation ....With the end result intending to be almost 100% customisable...A bigger store tha

There is definitely something to be said for what TGC has done over the years with FPSC. I agree with a lot of points made here in favor of FPSCR, but what keeps getting missed is the fact that after so many years we still have a substandard editor and missing core features. We keep hearing that it's in the early stages and those things will come eventually, but this product has been developed for many years now and the editor has never seen any significant improvement. Other game engines already had better editors when the first FPSC came out. And while some may complain about Leadwerks not being all it's cracked up to be, they have an editor that is light years ahead of FPSCR and that engine is written by a single guy. So, let's stop making excuses for a poor editor and get that part of the product up to the standards people expect and need.



And another thing. We all talk about how fast you can make a game in FPSCR, but I know from personal experience that all the time I spend trying to just get a single object in the right place on the map is wasted effort. It takes a very, very long time to get entities placed even close to right. Don't exaggerate how easy this product is. It is frustrating at best to build a level. In other products it is sheer joy to create terrain and place entities. Please, please give us a real editor.

Yea a "quick" game means a shiet quick level and a key and locked door with a win zone I guess. I was tempted to buy leadworks but I read that it comes with nothing and that is not what I wanted. If we continue to get updates each month I can really see us maturing at a pretty fast rate. Think about where we are going to be by December... I am excited to say the least.

I believe you can only judge when the final build is upon us as you nor i know what will happen down the line.

We can but ask for features and i agree there could be more being done just to give us the simple things like for example this thread.



http://fpscrforum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=207297&b=5



The community is begging for something to fix this for sometime and it would seem no one looks in this thread.

But this being said i understand they are trying to sort out performance and for me this is the no1 thing.







I don't believe this to be the case both programs have there good points but Leadwerks don't have a good "community" a store where you get great models from artists and tgc for a great price.



You are in-titled to you opinion as is everyone but i believe you should give it a little time

I have and continue to give it time. It's been something like 5 years I think since I first got FPS Creator the original version, then X10 which was discontinued and now reloaded. My thought when I saw reloaded was that it was going to be better than X10 from day one and that we'd finally get a real world editor and powerful scripting. But it's something like day 540 and not only don't have a decent editor, but we don't even have core features that were in FPS Creator the original version.



I will continue to stick by this and see it through, but I seriously think the priorities and focus are in reverse. I personally don't care if it has one line of A.I. code at this stage. I'd rather have a world-class editor to build levels with precision and a scripting language that gives me full control over every aspect of the engine. Then and only then would I care about A.I.

i dont know about any1 else but the placing is generally speak quite easy for most things, of course without 3d editing or some other view in the editor it can be a pain for smaller items i agree, and i do agree with you we do need a side view or something better, and away to pick up entities when they have been placed inside a building or on top of another asset. but i dont agree things are quite as dire as your making things sound. just look at various competition entries and you CAN see amazing levels made with this engine and all done with the same editor as yourself and in quick time aswell, and im not counting my demo entry in this statement here but they are AMAZINGLY well done for such short time as this competition has allowed to work on them!! and thats just the ones we can view in the comp section wip's.

but on the down side of the engine you are right, top down is difficult at times, for me making small hills prove most troublesome but then i have no talent at this time, i only hope i improve over time with being able to change the terrain landscape and dont view it as solely the editors fault. i only hope there is aday when it gets a fully functional 3d editing mode aswell as another view point in standard editing mode.



my advice to every1 is not to post in the feature creep threads on this addition though, and go straight to the tgc voting page somewhere (features i think it was i forget ) and have your feature put on the list of those to vote for, for the next vote around perhaps instead?!. as for me the feature creep section is mainly ignored by tgc posting wise... not even mods seem to post inside it, not even with a small comment of "this is to be a standard feature in future" or yes this feature will be added to be voted for at the next vote session" and alike... kinda lame but i guess their busy with alot of things?!



i know its a stuck record "have to just wait and see" but there we are stuck record or not, thats exactly what we do have to do. hope prey fingers crossed and all that aswell .

As with anything well done, the work and time put into it is not seen in the final product. As one who has spent many, many hours crafting a level in this engine I can attest to the dire situation. I'm sure those people who made those amazing levels would also agree that the editor is sorely lacking and difficult to work with. Some things are flat out broken and make it impossible to do some things.

Hi,



Thanks for all your comments. We are aware of all the issues and we continue to improve the product as we move forward.



This is not a finished title and we've made that very clear. By backing it you get early access to it.



We have also added in some LUA features into V1.007 for rotate and scale (that we know you wanted to see us add tomjscott).



So we are listening and doing what our community want us to do.



Rick

Thanks, Rick. Those commands are sorely needed. I am determined to stick with this and see it through to the final product so I hope that TGC will at some point focus attention on a world-class editor and full-fledged low-level scripting. I truly believe that will make all the difference in whether this product can deliver AAA games.

I am not privy to the internal Reloaded plan for development though I am aware that Reloaded is not anything like any previous version in terms of its basic aspirations nor is the vision for it.



Reloaded is getting a much greater investment than any previous product and Yes that is being concentrated on those things which are basic core pre-requistes for an fps product. Its a game make essentially and not a game engine and that's where the core priorities lie. Providing an out of the box solution by and large initially for a wide range of users.



Due to the concentration of effort fewer features can be added at once one has to wait I am afraid. However those major features that are added one at a time by and large are being taken to greater extremes than anything previously in the product line and to a level you wont find in any other product at this level and price and even at higher levels - out of the box.



At this time apart/including the core you have - open world outdoors - a considerable achievement for this product and not seen in any previous version. All that entails is and has been a major undertaking whilst maintaining performance for a wide range of users. This will all be improved further no doubt.



Next in line is AI without which you don't have an fps game at all. This is receiving a major investment in effort and will again be I would suggest a serious upgrade to what has been available before. Such an achievement is no mean feat to say the least and not for the faint hearted amongst game engine developers at any level/price ratio. Its notoriously difficult to build a good AI system for any technological product of any kind. I doubt you will get better out of the box anywhere else currently. That again no doubt will be improved as and when if possible.



A lot more to come.



Level Editor usability is clearly not a priority and quite rightly so in a development that has a long way to go yet to update the core and add features that the editor itself may be called upon to interact with. Editors/interfaces to some extent are a personal thing and one mans meat another mans poison. They wont do a great deal to help you make a better game - that will take hard work with any engine or game maker but agreed they can help along the way.



Whatever don't expect AAA title engine or features here its not that and only exceptional users will get the very best out of it as with any engine. For those that have the skills and resources to invest Reloaded will serve you well and almost anyone can make a good playable game with it with some little effort. No other product will come close to that. That in itself sets it apart.



If you want to make a large game with world level sizes that Reloaded provides for well that's another matter and as with any engine will take a considerable amount of everything on the part of the game maker and in that instance its no different than any other game product making tool. Its not magic but almost.



The Voting page is considered by TGC as are all the posts of users though at the end of the day TGC themselves have the final decision on all matters of course.



They do and are listening to what users say and ask for and are accommodating what they can when they can. With thousands of requests someone may be dissapointed as the majority of needs overall prevail.



I am sure improvements can and will be made to the editor though it wont stop me making a good or bad game either way though a good one may help and not hinder. Sometimes more is less and vice versa when it comes to interfaces which are difficult to get right like most other things. How well anything is done is what matters. Quality in interface as with quality of any other feature. Less of quality is better than more of poor quality in all things.



I am sure TGC have some plans for improving the editor and user game interface too no doubt when the time is available and it meets with priorities.



Right now I am waiting on V1.07 as is everyone as it is a considerable improvement with a lot of small improvements to general game level making for more users and the major addition of much improved AI and some LUA updates.



Con Kit further development I guess will follow soon after as that's the next essential feature I guess.



10 years waiting and more time yet to wait. You get used to it as an indie game maker.



The bottom line is that Reloaded is an engine/game maker designed to help a wide range of users so has to be suitable for all. Those that want to code. model and so on and those that do not. If you are at either end or in the middle of that range you should be OK but in all cases it is not designed for any one of us in particular. As with all things compromise is necessary and so we cant all quite have exactly what we want.



Having said all that I am not aware of any other game making tool where users have such a say in how the product gets developed - this is also something now which has set Reloaded apart from any other product. TGC are listening to users and doing their very best to give them what they ask for so keep asking is fine. TGC are listening and will I am sure continue to do so and implement any clearly useful and helpful suggestions which will actually make the product better as that's in everyones' best interests - as long as it is commercially viable and is within the range of their vision and aspiration for the product which is to deliver a world class product for a wide range of users.



Its an fps game maker for windows platform only initially and that is the aim. I believe it will achieve that. Anything else will have to be for another time and or perhaps another engine.



I know its frustrating waiting. TGC have a big job to do and cant work any faster. Development is going at a pace and may pick up further who knows, so hang on in there and the rewards should come.



This never was going to be anything but a major undertaking which to be fair has grown in aspiration partly due to users requests and suggestions which TGC are doing their best to meet. Can't fault them at all for that and users cant have it all ways - the more we want the linger it will be.



There are things I would like to see added too which are not even in the thoughts of TGC at the moment and have a low order of priority for them though I see them as of vital importance (for me) I just have to wait maybe for a very long time yet until the product is almost at the end of any prioritisation and most other major features have been completed.



A lot of major features yet to come and requested by a majority of users will make no mistake also be a considerable amount of work for TGC and difficult to integrate if they are agin to been done well with some quality so waiting is something yet that we will just have to accept.



Hard to do this game making tool stuff is.



Stay happy all and thanks for your support.

Despite my praise for Reloaded I cannot deny you are correct in the above statement...However I also know that sometimes to fix one thing you may need to disable another and then when you get that all perfect a new addition to the editor can effect other features.. it can be a vicious circle but hopefully it starts to all come together in time



Reloaded is far from perfect as it stands but also further from being bad....What we do have here is one of the best communities I have ever been involved with who are always willing to help each other with advice on any aspect of reloaded. We are all treated as equals here...Also a developer that integrates exceptionally well with our community, listening to our ideas and sometimes even asking our opinions before adding features..



Lee probably has an endless list of features we and he wants implemented but sometimes to enable one feature we consider important to be added then a few not so important need to go on first or it can mess up the whole procedure hence the questions " Why are you messing about with that when we want this " There usually is a reason ....Im confident we are getting there.....Or im gonna feel a right Plank !!

Personally I would never have backed reloaded had it not been in-house. I'd rather know the limitations of a product, than have a bunch of add-on's I don't know if I've broken, the internet has broken, or the host (e.g. Unity) has broken (or been updated to the latest version dropping support for the plugins)



This is my main fault with AGK (I bought v1, and backed v2) - the Code::blocks IDE its plugged into. It doesn't help my university requires me to use code blocks for C and this causes a complete mess if I try and install both.



I also trust TGC a great deal, I know they aren't going to do a policy U-Turn and charge a massive cut of my game, should I ever release it. If it were a plugin for some other engine, this could change.



I know its been said a lot, but we did all sign on for the alpha/beta and I don't know what I personally was expecting by this point, but it wasn't as advanced as we currently have. This could be because I find very little time to actually use it, though.



That being said: with segments gone (a good move) there is essentially very little to do design-wise at the moment, hence I was a bit dismayed at the pausing of the Con Kit for this reason, so I do understand people's concerns for progress.



On a side note if someone could please tell me how I adjust the height of a placed entity irrespective of ground level, that would be great. I suspect I'm being thick, but if I want something to hover or be sunk into the ground, is there a button? I can't seem to get that to work.

page up and page down for entity height in top down view hope this helps

Thanks for the tip, that would explain why I couldn't do it... I have a apple wired keyboard, and in their infinite wisdom it has no delete, page up, page down, insert, delete, home or numpad keys. I can deal with that all save the delete key, the lack of which frequently drives me nuts :/



Any way to remap the keys, or will I have to request an addition to cater for this? Regards

@tomjscott : I am keen to pin-down what you mean when you say 'world-class editor and full-fledged low-level scripting'. We are loading up LUA with a bunch of essential commands and will continue to flood them in as the game logic demands a wide range of

Lee, can you please add alternative key mapping to page up / down? Or a way I can customise this. Being apple my keyboard doesn't have: Pg up, Pg Down, home, end, delete, insert. (Or num pad).

@Sparrowhawk : What back-up keys to you recommend (as a Mac user)?

I'm not really sure - any which are a pair I suppose, I've just been looking at the assigned keys in the F1 help. Maybe +/- (as its entity mode) or a pair such as "O/P". I've attached a photo of the standard apple keyboard I use (the wireless one is the same layout).



I didn't expect such a rapid response, thanks!



Edit 1: It would also be handy to have a key alternative for RMB (e.g. Alt Left Button) as the Magic Mouse I use only has one physical click and uses multi-touch to detect my finger placement for the other. It's not always accurate - so if there was ALT-LMB and ALT-RMB added to also perform the function of RMB I could ensure I always get a correct click. Not really essential that one, but it may be a handy trick for single button (multi-touch) ultrabook users - just a thought



Generally I just plug in a two button mouse for gaming anyway.



Edit 2: I really don't get this forum attachment thing any more, it used to be simple to upload images to embed...

Easy, but I could name a lot more than three. But for your 3, here you go:



1. Scene hierarchy that automatically displays an entity's properties for editing when you click on the item in the hierarchy, which includes properties such as position, rotation, and scale that you can even adjust by entering values directly. A hierarchy would also allow you to drag items to children of other items so they can be edited as a group.

2. Transform gizmos that allow you to click on an entity and translate, rotate, and scale an entity with the gizmo.

3. Full editing in perspective mode that allows you to do the traditional rotate and move about the scene freely with mouse buttons.



For a couple more items needed:



4. Object Layers that allow you to put objects into categories and then set their visibility in the editor

5. Direct access to scripts within the editor itself or at least a way to launch a preferred script editor of our choice and then update the scene when the script is saved.

You don't have to do those things to make it world-class. As it sits right now, it is anything but easy and intuitive. It can be easy and intuitive if you implement the suggestions I've outline here. Most every 3D engine and animation package has what I've suggested. So there is obviously something to it.

Does using pgup/pgdn, shift+1, shift+2, shift+3, shift+4, shift+5, shift+6, and r seem more intuitive to you than clicking on a transform gizmo and just dragging in the direction you want to rotate? If it does then we are hopelessly doomed to never having a decent editor.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'gizmo' but if you mean a panel you have to manually click and drag on to do stuff, give me key commands any day...



Its probably just me, but I can't stand interfaces with loads of sidepanels - yes they make it more visually obvious how to do things, but especially for laptop users, click and drag anything is always a bad idea.



In my option everything else just takes up screen space. If the Quick keys relevant to the edit mode being used would appear in the editor status bar though, that could be handy.

Hasn't anyone here ever used a real game engine editor before? No, I don't mean a panel you click and drag on to do stuff. Just download the free trial of CopperCube and you'll see what I mean by a good editor with gizmos or widgets for adjusting objects in a scene.



http://www.ambiera.com/coppercube/



In the screenshot on their main page you can see a gizmo/widget which looks like 3 colored arrows (one on each axis).

@tomjscott you have to remember you have joined to be part of the beta and beta it is i feel you are trying to bring reloaded down for some reason yes it has its flaws but so do engines that aren't in beta we are all hear to be part of something and have

Beta in software land means pretty much feature complete. This is not beta. Second, I am not trying to drag it down. I'm trying to make sure it is the best it can be and that it lives up to the vision statement as follows:



Our vision is to produce The Ultimate FPS Game Creator for the PC - the defacto standard by which all other game making products will be compared. A solution that is easier, more powerful, affordable and flexible than any of its competitors. A product grounded and shaped by the community that gives it life.



If we just take a "good enough" mentality then this will never be a great product. Now, FPSC has been around in some form for at least 6 years and yet we still have the same clunky keyboard editing commands and lack of basic editor features.



As far as copper cube goes, I never even heard of it until I first mentioned it the other day. I was looking for something on google that was an open source 3D world editor that could possible be used as a basis for a new FPSCR editor. I happened to find the irrEdit page and subsequently Copper Cube which was built on it. Since irrEdit is open source, it could be used as a basis for building a more robust editor than what we have without starting from scratch.



I am in this beta to help TGC make the best product they can and if I sit silent and don't speak my mind then they aren't going to be pushed to get important features into the engine. I am all for this product and hope it can be the engine we all hope for.

beta software is a pre-release version of the final application, it may be unstable or lack features that will be be included in the final release.

I know where you are coming from and i know you wish speak your mind but my point of view is a new person coming to the forum and thinking of backing reloaded may be put of by stuff like this i am in no way telling you how to express yourself its just my opinion

Yep, that's the definition of beta. It lacking features generally means a few things here and there, not a year's worth of work. I know I may be coming off a bit strong and I don't intend to push anyone away. That's why I continue to say I am standing by the product and support it 100%. But As long as I'm involved in testing this early version and having a chance to provide feedback then I'm going to tell it like it is and not pull any punches. If I do then the product will be out the door before any of these things are even considered.



My background is 24 years of software engineering, including game engine programming and some game design. I've played around with at least 2 dozen engines over the years as well as probably another 2 dozen 3D animation packages as well. I'm no expert in game engines or 3D Animation, but I know what's out there and I know what is pretty much the minimum standard for any decent game engine and editor.



I own both previous versions of FPSC and I was really hoping this one would finally be the dream tool. And I think it still can be if TGC incorporates a lot of the things I and others have been asking for.

yes I have, and I know what your on about, gizmo would be good have mentioned them somewhere awhile back. also why be rude like that... what you think YOUR the only 1 here to try something different... I doubt you are m8. and what do you mean REAL?!, also abit rude tbh..



reloaded is and will be a real engine your just impatient or don't seem to understand the whole early access deal. this is far from finished software we talking about not some ready to use feature packed wonder machine...yet.

frankly, there are finished softwares if your in such a rush you have already mentioned unity and using that for your competition demo, 1 would think you be busy doing that over there rather than putting down members and the engine here?!.



this is the best engine I ever used for a fps game, and its not even finished yet.. infact I might just have to send that as my recommendation for the product! kinda catchy don't ya think

Sorry if I sounded rude. A lot of that can be attributed to how someone reads my posts. Text is very hard to discern a person's emotions are whatnot. When I say "real" I don't mean to be rude. I simply mean an editor that is not in a state that is barely functional. And I don't buy the idea that it's early in development and it'll get better. After all, the same editors were shipped with the finished FPSC and FPSC X10 and they weren't alpha or beta. Based on those shipped products, what they consider to be finished editor-wise is what I would call substandard. And I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but it's just true. If I don't say it and no one else is going to say it then they are just going to accept the fact that no one wants a fully functional editor and is willing to settle for what we have. And judging by some reactions here, I think a lot of testers "are" willing to accept it as is.



Please forgive me if I sound rude or complaining. I simply want this to be all that it can be. And I am behind it 100%. I also don't think I ever put anyone down. If it sounded like I was putting anyone down then I apologize again.



I still stick by my assessment of the editor. It needs serious upgrading. And again, don't say it's early because as I've just reminded everyone, TGC shipped full products with the same base functionality editor in the past. It isn't because it is beta, it's because that's what Lee thinks works and what he thinks is simple as he recently stated.

I believe a mod should close this thread now and possibly remove it as its no help to anyone and any further requests/ideas go in the Feature Creep.

I didn't think you were being rude



I personally stand by my opinion also, I dislike mice modding all the details around, if that's how this gizmo thing operates (I haven't used many other packes with that concept, other than blender, which I hate - no idea where to start...). I find right clicking to see the entity in 3d and using keys is enough, no point in over complicating it. I would reiterate that it would be have a handy of the status bar highlight the relevant keyboard buttons for the selected mode, though.



Regards, S.

Most editors also have keyboard shortcuts for features like this and so they would remain and you would be happy with the shortcuts. I am not suggesting we remove the shortcuts. But for me, and a lot of other people, it is far easier and far more intuitive to move objects around using gizmos and also being able to enter precise coordinates in a property panel.

I don't mind gizmo's their handy sometimes for some things, if we could turn them on and off at will it be great.

I agree



I agree



It's a fairly basic function of any 3d editor and not exactly world class. I think the new F9 level edit would benefit greatly from this. Though I would be surprised if the ConKit didn't deal with it all



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMlUJgm0py8

Skip the first three minutes. Forget the panels if they don't interest you its the simple gizmo toolset that counts. Although the video shows use of prims (primitives) the same functions apply to mesh and although scaling is a little limited with mesh its still easier than using keys to move,rotate and align etc. Note the rotation gizmo even has it's own degree indicator which will snap to 45 and 90 degree angles.



All the same I am used to both methods and don't mind too much, but sometimes I wish I had more control over placing things.



I disagree



Your good points are lost in the way you present your argument.

I won't close this yet as everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I will ask that everyone keeps it polite and would remind all users that we have a feature creep board for these kinds of comments.



Many thanks,



SC

Thanks for the feedback. This is what I have:



[1A] A new IDE panel containing a tree-list view of all entities in the level, with functionality to allow the user to drag an entity into another entity and create a parent-child relationship. That is, moving the parent will also move the child based on it's relative orientation.



[1B] Add POSITION, ROTATION and SCALE fields into the entity properties so you can adjust the entity placement in the world using numerical entry as well as the current mouse & keyboard methods.



[2] A new 'View Gizmo' item in VIEW menu, which activates a graphical gizmo graphic over every entity, allowing you to position, rotate and scale using just the mouse. This feature does not require the user to click the entity to select it into the current entity, allowing management of assets in place.



[3] An additional IDE editor mode which supplements the top-down perspective with a free-form perspective camera. Left click moves camera when not selecting entities, Right click rotates camera, mouse wheel moves up and down, WASD keys supplement camera movement. Able to toggle between top-down and last known perspective camera location.



[4] Add new field to entity properties called GROUP NAME which allows the user to enter a name into this field and create associations between entities. Then add a new LUA command called HideGroup("name") and ShowGroup("name") for in-game control. For the IDE, the group names would be pre-filled with a 'common category name' such as 'items', 'buildings', 'foliage', e.t.c but can be changed by the user. Add a New Panel to the IDE which lists out all the groups currently specified, and a toggle button to the right of each allowing the visibility of those groups to be controlled for editing purposes.



[5] A new IDE panel or item which launches a LUA script editor, allowing new or existing LUA scripts to be edited directly from the editor. Entity property panel to link to the IDE when selecting LUA scripts for the AI MAIN field. Saved changes are reflected in the game when Test Level is clicked.



Do we all agree this is the top five items required in the IDE editor? I can add a new item in the voting board and if it scores high, we can set aside the required time to work on adding these.

That's pretty much my dream list for fpscr at the moment especially the mods to the current way the editor lists entities and multiple views would be fantastic. Only thing I would add and maybe it was implied and I just didn't notice would be a box select tool to select and move/copy or delete all selected by the the box select tool.

I would go with that Lee.

@Lee yes that list is very nice...





@all

So before this thread gets shutdown I URGE everyone to watch some (or like me all) of this video.



http://youtu.be/4REVpxB9MeQ





It is the a level designer on H1Z1 editing a level.



He h

Before this gets closed, lets look at all the posts and actually summarise what has happened here.



Yes, I agree that some of the posts were heated and appeared to be either putting the engine or other members down. (not just from tomjscott), however, a lot of good points were raised.







Could have been worded slightly better, but, meh. Yes, I have used a number of different engines, Unity, UDK, Cryengine, S2, just to name a few, and must admit, that the most common feature among all of them is the manipulator widget.







Most 3D modelling software uses this as well. I would happily welcome the addition of this in the editor. Also, maybe with the feature of, while moving an object with the widget, you could press and hold 'shift' and it would halve the speed in which you move, increasing the ability to accurately place things.



Being a long time user of Blender (and a graphics tablet user) I love using short cut keys over using sliders and boxes to press. To me, it increases workflow and keeps your attention on the task in hand, rather than looking for that little button to press.



I can see where tomjscott is coming from when he says that the editor is outdated and admittedly, it is a carbon copy (aside from the terrain features) of the editors for FPSC X9 and X10, so, a change is needed. The idea of having a hierarchy and a small panel that shows you the entities properties once selected is a nice idea. I understand we can do that with 'right click', but, again, this detracts from what you were doing and could be accomplished much easier without going into 3D view.



We all need to be speaking our minds (politely, while respecting others opinions) for this engine to grow the way that we want it to. Yes, it is the property of TGC and Lee is the lead developer and he has big plans for the editor, but, we are the end user.



So, lets all shake hands and take away the positives from this thread.



Cheers



Jay.



PS, a little off topic, but, just to lighten the mood, here is a link to how animals would look, if they didn't have necks.



EDIT - I didn't realise that there was another page to this thread (I only read page 1). So, all the points that I mentioned have already been covered........umm.....at least the link is good.