Product Chat (Early Access) / GameGuru MAX Live - Broadcast #50 Answers

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 30th Jun 2021 16:39
Hi All,

Here is the recording from today's broadcast:


And here are the answers I could not reach in the live chat:

Q> Any possibility of Steam API integration for achievements? (The Steam API should be 100% optional so our games could be deployed anywhere)
A> There are no plans for specific Steam API support in the first version of GameGuru MAX as we want it to be free of dependencies initially, but we may look at Steam functionality after that.

Q> Menu Editor for the standalones planned?
A> Yes there will be something called the GAme Storyboard which allows you to edit your title and in-game screens for your standalone game without the need to script or create art.

Q> Already did my own Light_attached, but is there some chance to have one in GGMax Lights set?
A> We are looking at the best methods to attach both lights and particles to objects to save time when placing certain objects down. More on this when we have a solution we are happy with.

Q> ​Do we have to download gameguru Max on steam?
A> GameGuru Max will be available on steam or downloadable.

Q> Any chance to make the "Convert model" window modal and top-most please?
A> There is no convert model feature in GameGuru MAX. We do have a Model Importer which can import different model formats and prepare them for use in GameGuru MAX, and there are currently no plans to change the way it works except by expanding its functionality to allow more model variations to be handled.

Q> ​Is VR still going to be a priority before multiplayer?
A> Yes VR takes priority over Multiplayer for GameGuru MAX, and we will be supporting OpenXR as the technology.

Q> Where is game guru max? I've been waiting for almost a year and nothing?
A> Still an open release date but you can pre-order and get the weekly builds. The aim is to deliver a great product. Sorry that you have had to wait so long but we needed more time to develop the vision we have for MAX.

Q> Can I use the latest build to create as well as publish a game or is the publishing part still coming due to the release date having been pushed back so far?
A> No. If you are looking to make games right now, best to find a game maker that is finished and has a history of producing finished stable games. You will not be able to create and publish your own games with GameGuru MAX until we have finished the product and released it officially to the general public.

Thanks for all your questions, see you all next week!
GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported with bug fixes and functionality additions.

3com
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Posted: 30th Jun 2021 17:20
@ Lee
Quote: "Q> Any chance to make the "Convert model" window modal and top-most please?
A> There is no convert model feature in GameGuru MAX. We do have a Model Importer which can import different model formats and prepare them for use in GameGuru MAX, and there are currently no plans to change the way it works except by expanding its functionality to allow more model variations to be handled"

Maybe I didn't realize the question as needed, perhaps because the chat doesn't allow me to post the whole question, so the question is:

@ Lee [Question
Any chance to make the "Convert model" window modal and topmost please? so the user can do anything till the process is done.
This will prevent GGMax from crashing, especially clueless ones like me. LOL

And I'm referring to this one, (please, refer to the pic below)



Sometimes I had tried to open a map involving certain stuff, while GGMax is generating their dbo, so GGMax threw an error about bad dbo, I close the error window, and GGMax close.

Quote: "Q> Already did my own Light_attached, but is there some chance to have one in GGMax Lights set?
A> We are looking at the best methods to attach both lights and particles to objects to save time when placing certain objects down. More on this when we have a solution we are happy with."

Cool!
Thanks for the replies.
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Casigus
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Posted: 30th Jun 2021 18:07
Just catching up on todays show and once again super impressed, the addons previously with the sound zones and so on, great!!! and now the new asset organization is fantastic! Im excited.
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 30th Jun 2021 19:38
@Lee; "We will be doing combat, so long hair won't work for that!" -- Oooph!

Hu? Says who?! Did you know that for some people that feels like a ~= solicitous response. < NO PLANS for any combat in any forthcoming games on this front. (Haha!) If there is combat it will NOT be against humans, and NOT First Person! So Whhooo will be doing combat? Everybody else who doesn't really want to make a game I suppose. The mistake made in GG Classic is that the developers where trying to build everyone's game for them via the engine. They continued on with the First Person Shooter template. Unless you can show me otherwise, that bombed. If it's just a First Person Shooter Engine- or the Character Creator is going to only supply "Combat Ready" Characters, then that should be made apparent on all pages of the literature that promotes the product. I wouldn't call the female "wavy" or "punk" styles those found on real combat scenario soldiers. It's alright to instead admit if long hair is difficult to make look natural with physics, etc as mentioned- and we'll keep it at that. Looking forward to news on GG MAX Beta development!
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wizard of id
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Posted: 1st Jul 2021 06:23 Edited at: 1st Jul 2021 06:23
Quote: "It's alright to instead admit if long hair is difficult to make look natural with physics, etc as mentioned- and we'll keep it at that."
In the old days there was a cheap trick of using a grass shader from hair and fur, worked pretty well.

For AMD you now have tressFx and for nvidia you have hairworks, and it does a pretty good job at hair/fur/grass simulations, however the costs of that ain't cheap as both offload work entirely to the GPU, with the system requirements of max in mind, wasting precious resources on some thing like hair alone isnt going to work well with the system requirements in mind.

Besides you could technically fake hair simulation with animation of the character much cheaper to do, but with character creator using model parts to create the final model could result in issues with ragdoll and other parts of the character creator which could be undesirable.

Flat hair and such shouldn't detract from the game experience at all.

Now simulation of grass, plants, leaves and cloth is some thing as far as I am aware supported to some extended by the wicked engine would much rather "waste" resources on that lol.

I think it is a nice to have rather then a need to have.
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DVader
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Posted: 1st Jul 2021 17:32
Different hair styles are fairly important to make characters who mostly look the same, look a bit different. It is a bit of a cop out about the hair in honesty. Not having long hair on females especially seems silly as most tend to have long hair. It's not an army maker, it's supposed to be a character maker. But I suppose we will basically have to ignore it as we do GG's now mainly.

It's no use having lovely scenery if the characters look out of place. When it comes down to it that's the main thing you will be looking at, not inspecting grass to see if its moves with the wind etc.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 1st Jul 2021 19:13 Edited at: 1st Jul 2021 19:18
Sure static hair types is a must.However it should be noted while I made it sound easy, it is far from, the complexity surrounding simulating hair isn't as straight forward as it main seem. If you going to do hair Simulation you need to have a rendering engine that can make use of it.Subsurface light scattering as an example is needed, to really sell it , additionally different skin tones, coupled with the hair is going to have different amount of bouncing and absorbing light.

Hair is really a hard thing to do, which why game developers have opted to use bald characters or with wearing a cap, helmet or short hair.Even with big studio games shying away from using lots of hair unless they can help it, what are the odds gameguru will do any better.
Pretty much a zero as mentioned you could use joints on the hair, but even then the hair may end up doing some thing it isnt suppose to be doing.

Hair is an extremely complex and time consuming thing to get right. With what I have tested in max is ''off'' the one hair style just isn't thick enough to sell it well nor does the hair cast any shadows on the skin either, it is too costly to render.If you look at the game tomb raider that uses amd's tressfx the hair often does things it isn't suppose to be doing in many instances. Think this is what Lee wants to avoid the body parts of the character creator doing things it isn't suppose to be doing. In a controlled one use environment it will be fine, using it for 10000s of scenarios will likely end up with complaints and issues, which is less then ideal.

Definitely not a problem unique to gameguru either, I agree we could definitely do with more styles, just that long hair isn't going to be possible, a static pony style hair should likely be fine, any thing that works as a static mesh really.It has been mentioned by some developer that ray tracing could help, but that has issues it self as it really struggles with any thing smaller then a pixel.

Next gen consoles and future GPUs are working towards making short work of it, maybe the next version of gameguru in 10 years lol

Sadly hair simulation or animation via joints is out of the question, but I don't think it is the end of the world we have been doing okay without it and I don't expect tgc to get it right the first time, the technology is getting there for realtime rendering, for now we can enjoy awesome hair animation in the latest Pixar movies.
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science boy
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2021 00:17
Quote: "It's no use having lovely scenery if the characters look out of place. When it comes down to it that's the main thing you will be looking at, not inspecting grass to see if its moves with the wind etc."


I agree with this statement cc is meant to fill towns and cities and villages of the world be interactive and variety is needed
Im sure with optimism many styles for many genres will happen. This will be where wiz of id and other modelling wizards could really coin some cash
Once the templates are able to be modified or added to etc. There will be a Multitude of options
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2021 04:38
"we have been doing okay without it"
Where did this opinion derive from? And what do you have to back that up with?
Oh yeah- GG Classic is full of zombies, male soldiers or monsters -- and these entail the epitome of the highest sought after character types in all game play. Proven because GG is the most popular game engine on earth-- piling up the best rated reviews of games in the industry!
Let's look at it: The Fantasy pack and medieval fantasy folders contain one female character each (both with hoods.) Score ( 0 / 10 )
There is essentially one female zombie with 7 versions of clothing but the same hair; Score (1/39). Please clarify, but in all the folders included in GG so far- and I've included my ( 12 ) DLC;
Score = ( 1 / 999? ) female (the Zombie!) with a long hair style in all of my GG folders +DLC.

Now GGC CC = 2 very similar hair styles below the ears. Cute.

"we have been doing okay without it"
No- we have been doing POORLY without it. Why all the sudden interest in ladies with long hair? N/A ; Not applicable. Rather perceived disinformation or bland excuses on product is subject to analytical review.

"ray tracing could help"
?! Are we detecting hair collision with trees or bushes so as not to get tangled?
In the end I am NOT suggesting spending much time trying to get long hair put into the MAX CC as the above responses indicate it's an over-burden to perfect. Not looking for perfect, I just prefer honest and legitimized feedback. Thanks.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2021 06:31 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2021 09:56
@GubbyBlips

May you kindly point out and list all of the commericial games with all characters having either animated hair via joints or by simulation ?

Reason I am asking as most games use static hair or very limited animation, even fewer use actual hair simulation.

This sums it up a bit.

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2021/06/why-video-game-hair-is-so-hard-to-do-well/

I will add that wicked engine supports hair/grass physics, additionally it does support subsurface scattering so really no excuse not to have working hair. Definitely didn't want to come across as we don't need it, rather that it is a complex issue and not that straight forward and easy.

A good guess is most of these things have been either been stripped out of the engine or made inactive.So yeah they are probably messing up the hair quite badly here, in the same breath, it isn't TGG or the artists fault you do need an expert artist for getting good looking hair.
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shivers
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2021 16:10
Hello
I just looked at a July update video and the hair that is in the video looks really good ,but I don't think it looks that good yet in the demo they give us . at least not for me but I'm still waiting to get the next update so it might look like the video now.:} not sure about long hair as a have to have, but I admit it would be cool if Game Guru Max could have at least some long hair as options but I really don't know what limitations lee and the team have. I feel we should see what the team will come up with and then maybe ask if different things could be done. Personally I would like to see us be able to maybe have the option to import Unreal 4 meta humans in to Game Guru Max. But at the same time I don't want to add to the work load that the team already has.
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2021 17:13
"Point out great sophisticated game hair systems."
No, that's not my point. Complexity is not my point. Combat physics is not my point.

"But at the same time I don't want to add to the work load that the team already has. "
Exactly. As seeing progress In the ENGINE would be nice actually- not just more assets- those should be handed out to viewers as you exit the movie theater.

I'm not saying we need complex hair algorithms. In fact I'm saying nearly the opposite. Sure short hair is easier when quick movement is the name of the game. But that's only ONE scenario. Why can't we have some simplified albeit long hair styles? IE ; instead of running around in hysterical combat mode, we might just want to have some characters sitting there, or standing there talking to us-- the whole point of MAX CC's new speech system. We may want to take advantage of that- and not be inhibited by gender type. LOL sound political? Whatever, we're simply talking only about game character hair length here- and basically more static than dynamic- and not demandingly, but for the benefit of the entire community- per usual.
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DVader
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2021 02:26 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2021 02:29
While the technical aspects may be tough, the tech has been around for years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kwaz5w_Xx8
2 mins or so in and the 3rd party character has hair whipping about all over, and not even that long really. That's down to quality media mainly, but it is also in engine and very impressive (at least to me).

Now sure, we can't expect Unreal in GG max by any means, but hell, hairstyles should not be an issue for any modern game engine. If we are already worried about game speed because of hair types we are in trouble...
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Supe
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Posted: 6th Jul 2021 19:07
more building models with interior and exterior would be great.
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science boy
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Posted: 6th Jul 2021 19:32
Anyone noticed the new trees are frame heavy only 8 new trees and it dropped the frames by 30fps
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