Hi All,

Thanks to everyone who attended my live broadcast this week, and here is a recording if you missed the 4 PM BST session, this time covering the improved grass rendering:


You can also find all my answers in spell corrected glory below:

Q> ​Will there be any updated ai and will there be a in-game cinematic creator?
A> There are no plans to substantially add to the AI scripts and no plans to add an in-game cinematic creator module.

Q> Will we have deferred decal rendering at some point?
A> There are no plans to add referred decal rendering (that I know of). If you can elaborate below, it might blend with some other stuff that we are doing with the engine

Q> Will the tab settings improve, like global ambience and surface lighting?
A> The in-game TAB settings are subject to lots of change, I think we are early days on deciding which features should be front and center, and which can be hidden for more expert settings.

Q> Will the next build include bug fixes that were reported in the forum (transparency issues, etc..)?
A> The next build is not likely to contain any fixes reported thus far, but we have transferred them to our internal task lists with all the details you have provided. We will update on specific fixes as part of your update log, watch that space!

Q> Can we add dialogue in the game?
A> Yes you can do that by using the LUA scripting system to great effect, but there is no 'out of the box' conversation engine at the moment, you would need to learn scripting to chain complex conversations together.

Q> ​What about the voice dialogue?
A> You can set a character to speak using your own voice via a recorder, using Text To Speech or selecting a WAV file that contains voice. In all three scenarios, the engine will generate lipsync data for the character (if you are using a character created with the built-in character creator).

Q> Will the snow weather system cause snow to stick to the grass and trees. as well as rain causing the trees and grass getting wet?
A> There are no plans to have the snow accumilate in the scene or rain to wet the surfaces within the scene. You might be able to do this with your own 3D imported models and scripts. Another option may be available through the new particle system but we will have to see the power and extent of that system during development.

Q> Also it's a frozen lake a possibility. snow map with the water but the water freezes on top and if the player shoots the ice they can fall through?
A> No plans to add frozen water mode out of the box, but I imagine you could do something clever with an imported 3D model, some good visual settings and player control script for the slidy part, shooting it and falling through.

Q> Estimate on next build to play with?
A> I think the next build will be to test the new auto update system. Alas I am taking my first holiday of 2020 next week so I think you will not see a build until early November, but by then my helpers will have done many cool things and should be a good build.

Q> What will be done to improve water?
A> The water you see now is not final. We have some additional scenarios to cover such a standing water, slow moving water and water you might see in a small stream as opposed to the sea and ocean water you see now. When we start this, feel free to chizel away at our efforts until we hit the perfect water recreation for MAX, in both visuals and functionality.

A lot less questions than last week^^

Good stream, looking forward to the next improvements!

Alpha blending decal textures on top of the textures it is being placed on, another name it would go by or also fall under is screen space decals. In other words the decals that can be "sprayed" onto surfaces.

The thing is you already have the grass spraying, shaders and code and is essentially decals you are spraying onto a terrain, it is quite a minor step up using the code you already have to spray decals onto static geometry for screen space decals.

The bigger issue is you CAN'T have a updated rendering engine and graphics upgrade and not have a decal improvement over the ancient system we have been using since FPSC classic ?

We sort of already have decals that can be placed onto surfaces with the particles system, making them wrap onto or blend with the surface texture would probably only require a shader to be written to handle the rendering I would imagine.



Example video to show what I mean.

Grass painting system is actually ideal to be adapted for static geometry most of the code is already there. Don't think it is too hard a task to get done. I don't think the old decal system is going to cut it in max without some tinkering and tweaking from lee.

So no bug fixes, but focusing on the UI and a partial vegetation system? I'm out and will be requesting a full refund.

I always liked the the simplicity of the old decal system working with hide and show scripts .

So my question is will the new particle system work the same way as decals with simple hide and show global scripts ?

Talk about going to the extreme end of things. Lee did not say there would never be any bug fixes ever. He said:



So, yes, there WILL be bug fixes (duh!) as part of the ongoing work on MAX. It's just that the next build may not have the bugs fixed that have been reported thus far on the forum. They've been noted and transferred to their internal lists to be worked on when they complete other tasks. I would think that someone with your experience (as reported in another post) would appreciate the fact that some things take priority when developing software.

Not a question, just an observation, it would be nice if painting a second grass didn't overwrite and replace the first grass. It strikes me as less intuitive to have to select multiple textures for a single brush and have one set of parameters control all the textures on that brush. Like in your example, what if I only want the white flowers to be tall? I should be able to paint the grass, then paint over the same area with just the flowers.

Your commitment to deforming grass with player interaction is admirable, but probably a P2 or P3 in the grand scale of things. Crysis 1 had little touches like this but they quickly vanished in the sequels due to optimisation. I guess the GPU cost wasn't worth it ultimately. A better investment of time would be in a top-notch vegetation shader; something that will simulate the sub-surface scattering that occurs when the sun shines through grass and leaves. Here's an example of what I mean:


Wicked already has a fur shader that gives a similar effect, not sure if it supports sub-surface scattering though.

AE

I must understand that the decal system is going to change in GGMax, and animated decals aren't handled via shaders, such as GG does.


So, the GGMax LUA system is not so friendly atm, to do so, I ha have to re-wrote almost all the module_character.lua to get my conversation system in GGMax_beta3 working, as I did in GG.
This means, in the next update/files check, that workaround will be destroyed.
Lee will have to make the system more flexible to do things easier on this issue.


Another solution might be if you back the alt_texture feature to GGMax, then we can get items snowed and getting wet, or NPC blooding the clothes, and many other things. A particle system to do so might be too expensive.

I know that this is not going to sound like the most desired by everyone, but many times it is smarter to leave the fixing of the errors until last, or you will end up fixing the same error many times, in programming one thing can affect many others Since they are related to each other, if you plan to add a function that will surely affect some of the parts of the code that now give an error, why not wait until then to fix the error? imho.

Hi Argent_Arts,
"Talk about going to the extreme end of things. Lee did not say there would never be any bug fixes ever."

Neither did I. I said bug fixes should take priority.

"I would think that someone with your experience (as reported in another post) would appreciate the fact that some things take priority when developing software."

Like getting the functionality working before starting on the UI? Yes, I am well aware of what should take priority, hence my annoyance.

Actually, what you said was:





You do realize that there are more than one person working on MAX, correct? So, someone can work on the UI without hampering what the others are doing. They are aware of the bugs and have a plan to work through them. I don't attend their development meetings (and neither do you), but it could well be that certain things need to be fixed before others can. It may well be that some things are currently set to a priority, that if they get those things right, fixed, and working as they intend, that it will be easier to fix the other bugs (the ones we've reported).

So you're saying the UI needs to be pretty for the terrain to not tear or textures be lost?

And Lee answered: "The next build is not likely to contain any fixes reported thus far, but we have transferred them to our internal task lists with all the details you have provided."

Being on a list does not equal being worked on. And it is obviously hampering bug fixes, or they would be some in the next release, rather than pretty vegetation that falls beneath terrain if it is raised after their placement.

This is how software projects fail and it's a shame.

Did I say that? Can't see where I said that. What I said was there are more than one person working on MAX. So, while one person is working on the GUI, another can be working on other things, such as terrain tearing. Lee had said that the bugs reported by users would not be fixed in the next release, that does not mean they won't be for the release following. You do realize he is talking about the next BETA release, right? Not an official, final release? So, we shouldn't expect everything to be fixed for the next release in any case.

The UI is pretty important. And, as pointed out, work on it does not mean other things are on hold.



Thank you, Captain Obvious. But it DOES mean that they are aware of the bugs and have a plan to tackle them. Why is this a problem? Is it just that they are not meeting YOUR particular schedule? When you purchased MAX, it was with the understanding that releases (up until the official final release) would be pre-releases (alphas and betas). As such, there will most definitely be bugs.



Is it obvious that bug fixes are being hampered? All that is obvious is that Lee and company have a plan and are executing it. They are being very open about that plan. But it seems that you are not happy with what they've revealed about that plan. It doesn't fit your preconceived schedule, and so you have determined doom and gloom. That's a shame, actually.



Since you're a prophet, let's see if MAX fails or actually gets released as a good, stable product.

agreed, there should just be an option to erase vegetation or a check box to select "overwrite" or not perhaps
also when you add a new grass / terrain type to the list it would be nice if it auto selects it

@amen awesome video

Definitely. I've requested this in a previous thread. I'd love to lay down some basic grass between particular heights and then add some touch up with taller grasses added in (not replacing) or sprinkle a few flowers here and there (again, without erasing). A check box to add or replace would be grand, imo.

I wasn't sure what you meant, as it looks like no bugs are being worked on, so wondered if you were referring to the current focus hence the question mark.

It is obvious bugs are not being worked on because there is not a date for the next beta release and we've already been told no bugs will be in it.

You said: "They've been noted and transferred to their internal lists to be worked on when they complete other tasks.", so maybe not so obvious to you. And my original point is that the bugs should be the priority.

It is not about my own schedule, being a prophet or doom and gloom: it's about decades of software development experience and bugs that wouldn't be fit for unit testing making it as far as beta. Terrain tearing was visible in the very early youtube posts. I would like this software to succeed, this community deserves it.

I appreciate your help (thank you again) with Blender exporting, but you're obviously getting emotional and are not worth engaging with further.

I do get a bit narked when I see people running down GG's particles system and to a lesser extent the decals (which in reality are the same thing just less flexible) as if Lee can somehow do better in Wicked. Decals are decals, always have been and always will be, there are no 'better' decal systems, they all work in the same way.

Decals or particles in addition to suitable shaders are all you need for AAA effects, but like any system it all depends on the quality of the images you use. If you go out of your way (including risking burning your house down) you can make your own particle sheets from actual reality (as AE has done) and they will always be superior to any computer generated version blending blobs using math.

Referencing the footprints example I posted, that is a single image, you could use an actual photograph of you own footprint if you like, and the particles system can handle thousands of them on screen at once, you can't get more realistic than a real image of a real thing!

Hopefully, and I am not privy to the implementation of the new particles system, if the MAX particles system is as flexible as the GG one then you could have millions of footprints (I somehow doubt that it is though).

I agree with those statements about grass.

Hey, Amen, you've got, nice one.

Nope. Not emotional. Rational. For example:



Nope. It's not. That's an extreme and faulty position. It's not obvious that bugs are NOT being worked on. They are on the internal list to BE worked on. That's what's obvious. You just need to have some patience (which you seem to be lacking). So, who is emotional here?



You are quite welcome.



Actually, no. There are differing decal systems. I've been working with parallax occlusion mapped decals to add details to meshes in another engine. These are handled a bit differently than your standard decals. If MAX does not support parallax occlusion mapping (which I don't believe it will), then I won't be able to use these kinds of decals in MAX. And even if "decals are decals", there are some nice features that can be added to improve them, especially within a PBR-based system.

At the end of the day the bugs will be worked on probably when they get to each stage of that particular section and although its not being released in December Im thinking in 2 months Max beta could be looking good.
No bug fixes in the next build mean nothing at this point IMHO as they are concentrating on one thing at a time which we have always complained they never did.

Thank you for the non-emotional reply synchromesh. And it looks like you're saying bugs are not being worked on currently...?

My point has been about priorities, for the record, I am still asset building and am in no rush, I just want a stable product when the time comes. The current approach leads to, and has already led to, poor quality across all functionality and is not best practice, not even close. Terrain creation is a fundamental part of GGMax and yet has basic errors and should be perfected before moving to the next item.

And while my own project is urban based, so flat, and would fit in one tile, for other users, the added bonus of stable terrain would enable map/landscape building, that could be later textured once that functionality is perfected and so on.

No i just said Bugs will Probably be worked on as they get to area of focus. For example no doubt whilst Lee is working on Terrain and grass he will look at the issues posted and probably find new ones as well he will have to deal with.

In other words no big bug hunt just to clear that list for the next build ( That's the old mistake ) but work with the list as an when its relevant to do so. Even Lee will probably find he has fixed half a dozen of the reported terrain issues without even realising it.

But the current focus is not bug fixing...

The old mistake? I've lost all faith in this development and the approach being taken. My refund request is already submitted.

This is what I mean in my previous post.

I myself sometimes have to re-write a code block because of a bug, after that, I've changed my POV and I realize I have to re-write again the code, and finally, I don't need the previous code, why I lose my time fixing something that ends up on the trash bin.
After many years I realize that I need to re-done my code workflow.
Bugs should be categorized by priorities, but those priorities are done because of the impact them has over the whole code, the code you have right now written, and the code you are going to write, especially if some code block has something to do with.

For example, I have two errors, one is a system error, and the other shows me a prompt with the wrong font size, it is obvious which error I should give priority to, and perhaps I want to change the way a prompt is displayed on the screen, with which said the error will no longer exist.

Lee is the first person interested in this ship coming to fruition, for that reason I know that he will do everything possible and more, to make this happen.

Of course that's your choice. If your not happy that's the way to go.

This was a nice latest video-- the model for the grass looks 1000 times better
than that GG jr comparison. Wasn't that 90% of the fix?!
But yes I agree@ separation of the grasses-- varying length are key to 3D-
doesn't have to be felt as segregation! There are the other texture types
that can paint sandy paths to treasures like in Sea of Thieves.
https://www.gamereactor.eu/images/?textid=543223&id=2118363

And also- a lot of discussion going on about timeline. With the open phase
announcement, I kinda wrote off MAXimus for a spell.
When it comes, so be it, whether that's 02-01 2021 or 04-01.

Decals aren't "just" right now we don't even have alpha blending, or the ability to "spray" paint decals. Which if you have screen space decals with alpha blending it would open a whole new level, you don't even need parallax occlusion deferred rendered decals with the PBR surface shading with alpha blending with get the job done.

The good news is that lee confirmed that he will look at the decals, especially bullet holes and other decal "damage" types at least the alpha blending and screen space decals in future once every thing else is working as it should.

Have a look at CSGO as an example, you throw a molly and it scorches the surrounding textures with a alpha blended screen space decal, and the system allows for a couple of thousand bullet holes, knife damage ect.

Additionally with screen space alpha blended decals you can spray damage or weathering to bricks, concrete ect without having to physically have several different texture types, with the alpha blending part, it would actual follow the contour of what every you are spraying on as well as both the normal of the decal and the normal of the object you are spraying on.

With the new engine, lighting system and shading, the decal system won't cut it visually, no question

Look how leadwerks improved their decals, even the super simple, godot engine implemented screen space decals.



The huge difference screen space decals can make !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.slideshare.net/blindrenderer/screen-space-decals-in-warhammer-40000-space-marine-14699854


Unless you decal is completely flat with the current system you going to end up with decal flashing issues, additionally you can add debris, but you really can't take it that extra step of blending it with the rest of the scene, so that you don't have that stark difference between the debris and concrete., while you could try and add a alpha part to the actual texture and mesh you are causing more issues then fixing, which is why you have screen space decals, you simply have the flat decal scale the size and spray.

Might actually be a good idea to have an eraser tool with a alpha noise for erasing parts of the decal you may not need or want.

Very impressive looking grass, can't wait to see it moving. As for bugs Lee is obviously trying to get all the stuff we had in classic in and then fixing any bugs after. As the UI, I must admit to only using Max a bit but so far the UI is OK, but the improvements will certainly make things easier to see and navigate. Great work from Lee and the team..

Guys, one thing to think about when you don't "see" a bug being fixed ...

Terrain for example, people keep mentioning the issues with terrain in the last beta, terrain tearing, collision not right, slow painting etc. maybe the fact that only half the terrain system is actually implemented yet could be something to do with it?

Lee has a good chunk of the terrain system disengaged while it's being worked on (mainly the node system), maybe that being unhooked is what is causing these issues and when they hook them back up it will sort itself out.

The line "bugs should be priority" is very subjective and it's not all that black and white, don't expect things to be fixed immediately because they're bugs and important, there's more behind the scenes than we know, for example they could be working on something else that directly affects the bug we report, making it pointless to fix the bug until that is finished, or even meaning the bug doesn't exist when they add the part they're still working on.

What we need to do is relax a little, yes report issues you come across, but don't obsess over them because they might already be working perfectly, just not in the build we have access to, test it, report it, move on to the next part, keep a note of what you report, and if it isn't fixed when a proper release comes out then push it further.

Yep the old way would be Fix all the bugs for the next build and little else would get done.
No more half finished features this time we hope.
The current beta is all connected and functions .. Right now is the best time to go back and get everything so far spot on beginning with the UI then working through each section releasing Beta's as you go and it looks like TGC are taking this route.

Im afraid i disagree with Mungkeh_Man Bug fix priority thing whether he has 10 or 20 years development experience or not. The area's in question are not even yet complete. As i said come December Max will hopefully be looking be much more stable and solid.

What I think is if you feel so strongly about the order you would make things for the engine, then go make a game engine your self. Then you have complete control over what you deem the priority.

Other then that, report the bugs, and keep your opinions to your self. Don't distract the team as in the past with all the nonsense.

I suggest that this be followed or maybe some post moderation's may be put into effect.

Grass looks nice, i like the painting approach to putting grass down.

Id like to see less about gfx and more about gameplay and music and sfx and such, gfx arent everything. Feels like users are having to approach GG Max as a level editor and not an engine. Reminds me of the graphical mods for Morrowind that didnt address gameplay.

Looking nice though, keep up the good work!

The engine is Wicked ... Max is the UI.
By all means try Wicked without any UI.
https://wickedengine.net/

I didnt pay for wicked and am not in the market for it. Haha
The point is many want GG to be a strong option for gamemakers and we hope it doesnt end up too unstable for game developers to use, like last time.

Hmmm .. you realise GameGuru Max uses the Wicked engine right ?

The wicked gfx engine, yup, I dont know why you keep pointing out that.

Also, GG is not advertised as a UI addon for wicked. There is more going on and it is priced accordingly. Users are going to get nervous if you keep downplaying what theyre to expect from GG Max.
GG is more than a UI mod for wicked.

Thats whats being discussed here between us and Lee. Holding TGC to their promise of what GG Max is supposed to be matters. Cheers!

Hi Pirate Myke,

I feel strongly about not spending thousands of hours working in a flawed product I would have paid money for. But yeah, continue as you are, after all Gameguru 'classic' has such a good reputation.

Maybe try some basic testing yourself before demanding your customer base do it for free, but then if best practice software development is "nonsense": don't.

And no worries about me distracting the developer team, I won't be back.

Oh you edited your post completely differently ( Crafty ) making it seem like im blabbering
No , No ,No I was responding to this one ... Before you edited it


My point was if your not happy with the editor part try wicked without it in raw format.

Yup i did edit, youre replying very quick. Im not being sneaky, youre not calling me out, we are allowed to edit after we post. I wasnt intending to bother you. My initial post was whiny and i honestly am looking forward to GG so i edited out the whinging. But then you replied so i had to add the whinging back in Hahah

Anyways, my point was that devs are unsure what kind of engine will exist once GG Max is done. I said I was worried itll end up being more of a level editor, like GG Classic. Thats it.

Of course you can , Just clarifying what i replied to before edited both your posts.

@ Mungkeh_Man: See you when you get back (they always come back)!

@ Cobbs: I think what Synchro is trying to illustrate, is that when you substantively change your post; it may make follow-on/reply posts not make much sense to anyone perusing the page.

I'm not exactly sure where all hostility is coming from, on a product that hasn't even left the shipyard yet? TGC/Lee has put up various builds of an (very much) early Alpha build of MAX. It's not done yet guys; and it wasn't claimed to be. You can feel free to participate as much (or as little) as you like, in the development of this new product of TGC. You can feel free to leave as much constructive criticism, wish lists, feedback, hopes and dreams, etc; as you want. You are also free to get a refund. It's just going to cost you a bit more when you decide MAX is what you want it to be.

But, as it has been for well over a decade; what isn't allowed is constant badgering of the developers, other users, moderators, etc. That's not at all to say that you can't voice your dissatisfaction with the product, or the development path. Just do it in a constructive and productive manner. We don't really like to be too heavy-handed with moderation here; but there is always a point where it is necessary. If anyone has any question as to what is right, wrong, or in doubt; there is always the A.U.P. to refer to...24 hours a day.

Have a great day everyone!

@ Mungkeh_Man:
I test what is available for the build daily. I just dont whine about what is not there.
I work in other AAA engines also and test daily there also.

Development takes time, and TGC is under no obligation to provide public testing, but are kind enough to.
So i will be more then happy to test the product for them for 10000 hours if needed.

Lee promised no AAA enginge with GG Max. But is putting in the effort to make the core strong out of the box. Still with a team that is a small fraction of the big engines.

See you when you get back.

this thread just proves why Max was nowhere near ready for release and Lee has said as much so stop asking for a finished product..

it doesn't really matter what gets worked on right now... you shouldn't use Max for anything other than bug testing and messing around right now and for the foreseeable future - if you are trying to use it for anything else you are in for a bad time.

Yep, in fact, I'm missing someone (in a good way), he does not come often lately, but is so odd he doesn't come back. now that GGMax is on the cook.

Exactly, no point in whining. There's not much for users to help work on to help GG Max come out earlier, so it's understandable if people feel a little antsy. All we can do is play with the broken alpha tools and get to work on the concept stage of development. Anything more is putting the cart before the horse.

Maybe we should keep ourselves busy with our own development projects while GG Max is in these stages, so we can stay busy and productive and not feel like we need GG Max right nao.

Exactly. I think that type of thinking should only be allied to 2021. Its far too soon.

yes guys my 2 pence worth

ITS NOT READY YET
don't try as one said badger to get your own way, be patient learn to build and create stuff
i think the grass looks amazing, im very impressed 10/10 Lee well done.
the world should always be worked on first, why have a world that looks iffy? get it all done section by section. their way, im very impressed with how lee is developing this time..... last time he tried to please all the whinging whining moaning selfish little studio wannabes who mostly have gone. its a bit like brexit, you dont give the vote to someone who has no idea about how a country runs probably 80 to 90 percent who voted. uk now in iffy status but back on track
anyone who comes here either cant build an engine or have tried and realised they are not good at it why else are you here? so i will say this once button it, be patient and look at the improvements already on gg. cant wait to get my hands on the level creator as you guys put it.
the real mechanics behind the world creator will be lua scripts. buy ask or create them there are some amazing logic math heads here. if you have an amazing world out the bag as in can jump skip hop swim in a totally immersive world where anything physics and living is possible.
i can see
driving games - gta
tomb raider games
kind of oblivion games
croc and platform games
swimming and sports games
its a knock out
tenchu
fighting games
doom

Heads Up Lee how about

LUA game packs DLCs

where you buy a pack with all needed scripts to make a unique type of genre and all linked they would sell like no tomorrow
i prob buy them all

@science boy: I thought I read somewhere that's going to be the new direction for MAX DLC packs going forward; moving away from just model packs to more complete "game design kits" with associated scripts to match. Sounds exciting!

AE

Yeah that sounds like templates. Lee just said, however, that FPS is the main focus. They're trying to make it polished around that, with new game types coming after the tool works like it should. I think he said down the road, sure why not, but not until it's natural to expand GG outside of FPS territory. And all of this is available to do on our own with scripting, it's just tough (which is why we are asking the dev team to make it, isn't it?). So yeah