Product Chat / GameGuru Max Beta Suggestions and Improvements

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wizard of id
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Posted: 1st Oct 2020 11:36 Edited at: 1st Oct 2020 11:36
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This isn't a request thread, but a suggestion and improvement thread of features already in max.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 1st Oct 2020 11:37 Edited at: 1st Oct 2020 11:45
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I noticed a couple of things
1.Should be able to set water transparency, currently one fit all water plane.

2.Entity extraction is a real pain, when extracted to the cursor, there really should be an option to extract the entity in place.For example click the extract icon on the panel and then select the entity you want to extract.

3. I have an 128gig SSD, it will fill up quickly if the default editing folder is in my documents. I want to be able to select and edit the path where I am able to place entities.Considering my entity library in classic is well over 34 gigs, It is a real problem. I understand that gameguru needs to conform to windows 10 writable area requirements. This should be the default by also allow users to install to a different drive for entities as their libraries increase, should be possible to add several directories. This is a real issue for me.

4.In classic when selecting an object it would show up red, which allows you to select the correct entity, in max it only show a selection box, with large single object with overlapping entities it makes it really hard to detect and select the correct entity. Really should have the red or less abrasive color back for selecting entities, with the current selection box
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OldFlak
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Posted: 1st Oct 2020 15:05
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Quote: "I want to be able to select and edit the path where I am able to place entities."

+100
Yeah, I keep all my media on a second and third drive - my C: drive is an SSD and I like it used for programs only. This is an important thing.

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OldFlak
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2020 16:10
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The entity panel is cumbersome to use having to scroll through a myriad of thumbnails for all the models.
It would be far more user friendly to have the good old treeview list that has the names of your folders, and you can just expand the one you want to use.

GG Classic approach was much better. Can we have that back, or at least make the titles for the current method collapsible?

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Posted: 2nd Oct 2020 18:58 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2020 19:00
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I agree with what is mentioned above.

How do we enlarge the terrain? Is terrain streaming coming?

How would we set underwater so that when we are below the water plane, it shows things like reflection, refraction, etc? Like asked above, we need transparency to see above the water. It is 100% opaque right now. A transparency slider would be staellar.

Right now, painting is a bit broken. Importing a terrain texture does not guarantee you will be able to paint with it. I imported a cracked terrain, wood and one other and when pressing on wood, cracked terrain would paint.

Water waves - seems to do absolutely nothing. There is no way to really make stormy seas.

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Posted: 2nd Oct 2020 22:42
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Need a way to clear the list of previous maps on the File Menu. Max is still recording maps that no longer exist (previous alpha tests) which have been completely removed.

The list should also display the last opened map first (like classic dose).

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Posted: 3rd Oct 2020 12:45 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2020 13:34
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The double up of the file structure is , well, just weird

If we have to have it that way, it would be better to have Project Folders, where all media used by the game is stored. So duplicate the exact file structure used in Program Files in the Project Folder, and copy all media used by your game there.

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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 17:30 Edited at: 4th Oct 2020 17:31
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Existing feature: EBE/Structure editor.
Proposed improvement: Bring back CSG mesh punches like we had in FPSC so we can punch irregular shapes through walls to create doorways, windows, and damaged walls with ease.

Existing feature: Tab-Tab bars.
Proposed improvement: Tell the user how much memory in kilobytes a level is currently using, preferably splitting this out per category (drawcalls, AI, collisions etc.).

Existing feature: Entity extraction
Proposed improvement: Allow us to group select a series of entities and save them as a prefab. The prefab remembers the location of entities relative to each other, as well as any scripts they have been assigned. In the entity library, a new 'prefabs' tab would be added to allow the importing of these groups of entities in one click. For example, you make a weapons table with a series of weapons and ammunition on it, group select it all, save as a prefab, give it a name. Now in level 2, you go to prefabs and click on your newly created prefab and a table with weapons on appears.

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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 18:46
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Quote: "Existing feature: Entity extraction
Proposed improvement: Allow us to group select a series of entities and save them as a prefab. The prefab remembers the location of entities relative to each other, as well as any scripts they have been assigned. In the entity library, a new 'prefabs' tab would be added to allow the importing of these groups of entities in one click. For example, you make a weapons table with a series of weapons and ammunition on it, group select it all, save as a prefab, give it a name. Now in level 2, you go to prefabs and click on your newly created prefab and a table with weapons on appears."


+1000 for this.

Perfabs are virtually necessary and a huge time saver. You can create a door that consists of a door frame, an animation, triggers (for automatic doors), a button to open it (for non-automatic doors) and more, then save the entire thing as one prefab, reusing it as you please throughout the level by simply dragging it into place. You could create an entire room and reuse it as you please. I've been in game levels that have, for example, men's and women's public bathrooms in them. They are all the same on each level. Why re-create this space over and over again when it can be created once, saved as a prefab, and reused where needed?
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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 20:04
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1- I want my imported meshes to save as X files, rather than just as dbo.

Quote: "If we have to have it that way, it would be better to have Project Folders, where all media used by the game is stored. So duplicate the exact file structure used in Program Files in the Project Folder, and copy all media used by your game there."


I've suggested something like that here, and yes it is really nice to have, anyway, take into a count you are duplicating meshes on your entitybank folders, this step should be doing it by GGMax when building a standalone file process.

1- You start a standalone process (via files>save as standalone)
2- GGMax creates a Project folder with all the involved files there.
3- GGMax add its own default internal files.
4- GGMax creates the folder structure and creates the exe file.
5- GGMax store all these folders within MyDocuments\Game Guru MAX Files\MyGames\YourGame folder

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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 20:44 Edited at: 4th Oct 2020 20:44
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Quote: "1- I want my imported meshes to save as X files, rather than just as dbo."


Why? What reason would you want your imported files saved as X, which is a very old and very obsolete 3D format? DBO is the internal file format that GameGuru Classic and MAX uses, so it makes sense that it would convert imported files to DBO.
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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 20:58
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@ Argent_Arts
I must admit that this is for a personal reason, I have coded my application to work with files in the .X format, and this would make things easier for me, save me time and work.
Anyway, GGMax usually generates dbo files automatically from X files, as GG does as well.
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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 21:36
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Yes, Excellent.
Highly favored suggestions Avenging Eagle.
+2000 for this.

To be honest the prefabs would be obtainable if only spawning any
object was featured via scripting... basically, that is how it would happen
I imagine (ie the engine spawns the entities on location specified).
In editor and/ or in-game.

Both methods would be very handy- for creating the map, and for
other flexible uses via spawning entities.
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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 4th Oct 2020 21:54
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Quote: "To be honest the prefabs would be obtainable if only spawning any
object was featured via scripting... basically, that is how it would happen
I imagine (ie the engine spawns the entities on location specified).
In editor and/ or in-game."


Not really. Prefabs are mainly for the editor. They're a means to make it easier on the level designer so that they can design once and use multiple times. So, I create a particular thing, like a working door (frame, two sliding doors, and a script) then save as a prefab. Now I can place this door as many times as I like throughout my level without having to recreate it each and every time.
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Posted: 5th Oct 2020 02:24
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Right! Very good thing to have.
If you had both tools at your disposable- even better.
Could script- spawn pre-fabs also! Unity scoot over!
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Posted: 5th Oct 2020 22:47 Edited at: 8th Oct 2020 12:32
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Two features I use a lot in Classic via the FPE:
1) effect = effectbank\reloaded\effect_scroll.fx
- This is a simple and effective way to give animation life to a level.

2) effect = effectbank\reloaded\decal_animate4_slow.fx
- Used extensively for animating computer screens and portal textures

Can we please have these back.

For Example:
Naelurec heavily utilizes HSLS FX for things like monitors and force-fields.

My force-fields use a simple texture scroll effect to animate them, as do many parts that use it for flowing substances.
Some models use a decal such as teleporters. And of course monitor screens use animated decals.

These things are crucial part of the any project.

Will these things be doable in the near future, or perhaps you have better methods in mind.

Keep making MAX Great

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Kitakazi
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Posted: 5th Oct 2020 23:42 Edited at: 5th Oct 2020 23:42
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And
effectbank\reloaded\effect_wave.fx
please!
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Posted: 6th Oct 2020 00:33
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I'm afraid the effect system in GGMax is going to change, now is named "shaders" and work with cso files, Lee says something about the chance to edit/modify those files via Visual Studio.
I would like some GG fx system support in GGMax, however, I'm not so sure about it, if not GGMax support, then many GG maps may no work as expected, in GGMax.
Anyway, GGMax is giving some support to fx shaders currently, ie: apbr_basic.fx is being use in cellar entities.
I tried to use in GGMax beta2 effect = effectbank\reloaded\decal_animate4.fx with a decal, with not to avail.
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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 6th Oct 2020 07:33
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I know not many people used it but, is the cartoon shader in Max or going to be implemented?
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Posted: 6th Oct 2020 17:27
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@wizard of id
@OldFlak
I suggest you redirect your Documents folder to a different drive. It is so easy through the properties panel of the folder.
WBR
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wizard of id
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Posted: 6th Oct 2020 17:54
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Quote: "I suggest you redirect your Documents folder to a different drive. It is so easy through the properties panel of the folder.
WBR"

Why should I change the documents folder to a different drive for ONE piece of software to be compatible, that is a little unfair uproot windows folder structure for a single piece of software. I shouldn't have to change and accommodate it when it can easily be fixed and accommodated in future. It will also help any other less tech savvy people from running into issues regarding space for assets of their main drive, the influx of complaints and flack will likely be the end result.

Considering NO other tool like unity or unreal ect forces fixed directories especially for most content added to projects , max should be no different.It is almost a given that lee with so many things on his plate didn't take into consideration the space might be an issue for users.
It isn't particularly difficult issue to resolve and solves a problem that many users may experience, because I can tell you I am not the only one that has a small drive for the OS and a standard HDD for storage, there is no need to shell out more cash for a larger SSD as well as things have worked perfectly with software since the original windows. This is really a no brainer adding additional index folders for large libraries.


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OldFlak
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Posted: 6th Oct 2020 23:20
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@Burgos thanks for the input there.
However as wid says above that is not something you would want to do system wide for one piece of software.

Given that you can have such huge stockpile of assets it is really an expectation to be able to point the software itself to a another drive. This more like a where is the function to do this, rather than a can we please have it.

I recently stopped using Dropbox desktop app because it high-jacks the documents folder and backs up everything in it to the cloud (with no easy fix to stop it doing so).

In any case adjusting system settings for one piece of software is not an option - imo

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 14:20
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@OldFlak : Do you have a suggestion on how we can bring back this functionality for MAX? Naturally we cannot use the old FX shaders, they are utterly incompatible with the entirely new graphics engine. Would you be up for modifying the new wicked engine shaders to achieve the results you need?
GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported with bug fixes and functionality additions.

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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 17:04
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@ Lee
1- Are we able to edit those cso shaders? if so, how to? usually, cso is a compressed iso image.
2- How we are going to reflect those cso shaders in the fpe file, or it does not necessarily do it?
3- The only way I see is making compatible all those legacy shaders with GGMax, and yes, a big job here.

I wonder how we are going to use shader animations, such as decals (4x4, 6x6, 20x20, etc)
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 22:16
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@Lee : Currently in vanilla GG to get a torch flame effect I use an additive shader attached to a particle emitter, several particles are spawned at the location of the torch and are rotated and scaled in real time to match the movements of the torch, the frame rates of the particles are different and are controlled by script. 4 different emitters are used to allow the torch to burn down over time.

I assume none of this will work in MAX btw.

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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 03:03 Edited at: 9th Oct 2020 03:05
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@Lee
For myself personally, it is pretty crucial animated decals make it into Max. They are simple, can look great, and can give your level a unique touch. Having 2d animated decals can be used for so much, my game uses them for... Monitor screens, tv screens, screens for all sorts of scifi equipment, lockpads, numberpads, general signs, force fields, teleporter fields, save points, level end points, etc.

I'm not the best of artists, but if I make a steel door and then have the button that opens the door be a cool animated decal and maybe throw some animated decals on the floor as well helping lead the player through that door. Well that is a lot more interesting than having just a steel door and "press e to open door" prompt.

And if animated decals wont be backwards compatible, and I wont be able to simply "load in your old levels and carry on where you left off" what do you suggest people use for things like Monitors, TV's, or any other modern day screen? Or should I plan to make any modern day/futuristic device have a static screen?
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 03:24 Edited at: 9th Oct 2020 09:11
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Suggestions @Lee (From my humble producer perspective, trying to put myself in TGCs shoes):

1. Fix the freezes first, because currently you are locking out many users from actually testing properly and finding out about issues that might turn out crucial further down the road

2. Get the terrain actually working (with collision etc) right next after that, because that harbours the same potential for overlooked or yet unseen issues.
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 04:22
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Quote: "I assume none of this will work in MAX btw."

Bad news.
This makes my horror pack noncompatible with GGMax since meshes rely on shaders most of them.
My cascades, rivers, oceans, lava, fire, waterfalls, decals, etc no going to work in GGMax, therefore the GG maps either.

I understand this of course:
Quote: "Naturally we cannot use the old FX shaders, they are utterly incompatible with the entirely new graphics engine"

Anyway, we will need to run meshes as pointed above in any way compatible with GGMax.
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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 14:00
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Quote: "I assume none of this will work in MAX btw."


This was - sadly - the conclusion I came to as well.

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OldFlak
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Posted: 12th Oct 2020 23:10
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Would be nice to have Editor Fog check box so we can turn fog off in editor - same thing as Editor Light
Mockup:


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Posted: 13th Oct 2020 19:53
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How large will we be able to make maps? Its not clear what GG Max is supposed to excel at since nothing is working yet, and it's still very unclear how a finished game is to be made without certain game polishing features (ie multiplayer level select, true multi-level support, etc).
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Posted: 14th Oct 2020 14:58 Edited at: 14th Oct 2020 15:00
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I think get the world environment sorted before intricacies of the editor select tools. great idea batch etc but i think an actual engine priorities over extra snazzy features on the gui,
But all good if its a quick job.
I jus want to see a good character creator and an actual game world that you become immersed in. That's the sky the land the weather, the day and night, water that has swimming and under water diving, grasses and trees and particles that help add efx. with lighting that makes you go wow. The world is important to any game you make. If its not to be an outdoor world game maker then dont create it as one. So yes tgc are close on this one but get that right and the rest will flow well
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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 16th Oct 2020 23:09
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Suggestion for Grass Height/Width:

From what I can see, currently in MAX when you adjust the height/width or the amount of grass, it changes the height/width and amount for the grass that is currently already painted onto the terrain. I would like to have the ability to be able to only affect the height/width and amount of grass about to be painted (perhaps a checkbox to enable this?). That way I could paint grass at one height and then, by changing the height, paint grass at another height to be able to have grasses that are not all the same height.

Of course, that would require another fundamental change to how we paint grass currently. Right now, if you paint one grass type, change grass types and paint over the previous grass, it replaces the old grass with the new. I would like to see an option (again, perhaps a checkbox for [ ] Add Grass) where I can change grass and paint over the old without replacing it, but adding more grass. If the brush is random enough in its placement, then this should work fine.
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Posted: 17th Oct 2020 16:39
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I would say you got a good point.
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OldFlak
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Posted: 18th Oct 2020 14:22 Edited at: 18th Oct 2020 14:24
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Quote: "@OldFlak : Do you have a suggestion on how we can bring back this functionality for MAX? Naturally we cannot use the old FX shaders, they are utterly incompatible with the entirely new graphics engine. Would you be up for modifying the new wicked engine shaders to achieve the results you need?"


@LeeBamber
Sorry missed that post.
Yeah I wish I had that know-how! Hopefully your team can come up with a solution. When I do a walkthrough of one of my levels in CLASSIC the models look lacklustre compared to the awesome rendering in Max, but it is alive with movement because of the textured scrolling and animated screens.

A similar test level in MAX has beautiful rendering of the models, but is just so static and lifeless.
If we could get equivalent options to those shaders in MAX, the results would be fantastic!

OldFlak....
aka Reliquia
i7-4790 @ 3.2GHz. 8GB Ram. NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB. M1: Acer 31.5" @1920x1080 M2: Samsung 31.5" @ 1920 x 1080. M3: Acer 24" @ 1920 x 1080. OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Insider.
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