Product Chat / GGMAX - GUI - GIZMO Discussion

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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2020 14:33
Now that GameGuru MAX is beginning development with a rendering engine selected, I'd like to talk about the GUI for just a bit. For this thread, I'd like to keep discussion to the gizmo that allows us to interact with entities in the 3D editor as well as how we currently interact with them. My intention is to generate ideas, see what people think, and, hopefully, see GameGuru MAX develop into a 3D game creation tool that is even easier to use, while still being feature rich. Let's start by looking at a screen shot of the current GameGuru MAX alpha with a single entity loaded and selected:



As with Classic, when you select an entity, you get a gizmo for moving the entity about and a menu for things like Position, Rotation, Scale, Properties, and more. I'd first like to talk about the menu you get with the gizmo.

Personally, I think that this menu could largely be done away with. I see no real reason to keep this in the 3D editor. Firstly, first three items (Position, Rotate, and Scale) could be removed from this menu and accessed in a few ways - 1) by including an icon at the top that would allow the end-user to select which type of gizmo they needed and 2) via standard 3D modeling keyboard shortcuts to quickly switch to which gizmo is needed. Secondly, instead of having Properties as an option, why not have the items properties instantly available on the right-side panel simply by selecting the item? In other words, the moment you click on an item, you have instant access to the entity's properties. This should be the case, in my opinion, for anything selected, like lights. Click it, and the properties panel appears on the right. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it makes the properties instantly available. And if this is done this way, then the rest of the items on this "gizmo menu" (Extract, Delete, and Lock) could simply be incorporated into the entity property panel on the right. This would also take care of one of my biggest annoyances with GameGuru Classic - when you click Properties, the camera zooms in on the entity. Personally, I don't like this. Often I have my camera set exactly where I want it to be and that is the view I want while editing the entity's properties. So, if we could get rid of this "feature" or at least make it an option that could be toggled on/off.


The above image simply shows an entity selected with the properties panel open on the right. I think this should be the default any time an entity is selected, giving instant access to the item's properties.

Now let's talk about the actual gizmo itself. I think it could be improved in a few ways. One way is cosmetically. Compare the GameGuru gizmo to the one in Blender, for example:







Blender's is much cleaner and less obtrusive. It's not about the size, it's about things like anti-aliasing and overall design. I also like that Blender, as well as many other 3D applications, offer an universal gizmo that allows the end-user to move, scale, and rotate without having to switch between gizmos. I am not suggesting that this universal gizmo be the ONLY gizmo that MAX would have, but that it be an option, as it is in other 3D packages.

When things get complex in a 3D environment, there is a lot to look at and a lot that can visually get in the way, making it possibly difficult to do your work. The last thing we need is a gizmo, which is essential to doing the work needed to put together a game level, getting in the way, too. Visually, GameGuru's gizmo could be much better and could be made to work well with minimal intrusion in the 3D view.

Thoughts?
GubbyBlips
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2020 16:00
I don't know @above, I can't see any of the pics- sorry. (I can try to imagine.)

What would be nice (going along with your suggestions) Argent_Arts,
is if with your entity inventory (I hope it works like a game inventory)
IE -- a full screen pop-up, so with that could be in the box, some of
the properties as you mention (and that's not taking away from your
suggestions) which are great. But in the inventory grid, in the box,
certain data points such as the script assigned physical X,Y,Z location,
name etc could appear.
The properties pop-up would present editing with more details.
Great idea.

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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2020 23:14
Quote: "This would also take care of one of my biggest annoyances with GameGuru Classic - when you click Properties, the camera zooms in on the entity. Personally, I don't like this."


Yes this is very annoying for me too. You kinda have to wait 3 seconds for the camera move to finish before you can accurately position, rotate and scale an entity. Either that or the camera flies off hundreds of metres away for some unknown reason.

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Mav3r1ck1981
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2020 23:46
I agree with you pretty much 100%, the widget as it stands, while offering some useful tools, they could be implemented in a much more user friendly manner. as I was reading your post, I was thinking about the blender gizmo. The only real alteration I would mention, is that in blender, the widget automatically pops up at the middle of the object you are manipulating, what I do like about the GG version, is that it appears wherever you click on the enitity. when dealing with large or complex models, this can be a godsend
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OldFlak
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 01:18
Yeah agree 100% with OP.

A properties panel is the standard method of interaction with an object - it is used in all types of dev tools: programming, 2D\3D. The reason it is the standard is because it makes sense.

Using a properties panel would also allow for finer control of position and rotation of an object by use of numeric input fields.

With regard to the 'zoom in on a selected object' - it is simply not needed, it is more an annoyance than a feature imo.

OldFlak....
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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 12:14
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees these areas could be improved. I like GameGuru and, frankly, am pretty excited about the possibilities that MAX will bring to us. Even so, I'd love to have a smoother end-user experience when developing within MAX's GUI.

Now, while I definitely do not like what happens when you click Properties (flying in to focus on the entity), there is something we do need in the 3D view port - the ability to focus on a selection and, via mouse+keyboard shortcut, orbit around the selection. Moving about via WASD keys is nice for navigating a map/level, but you really need to orbit around a selection for various things, like precise placement. I realize that, currently, when you click Properties the default is that you can orbit the item, but you can't do anything to the item itself (scale, translate, or rotate). So, if TGC could add a means of orbiting around a selection, that would rock.
bluemeenie195
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 12:55
I think Teabone mentioned a while ago and I agree, that in the properties page it should also list the FPE files for the entity highlighted for real time value adjustment.
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Mrs Baird
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 13:22
1. I liked the menu, since there was no manual. It helps beginners understand what is possible with the object. Maybe the tutorial-system makes this obsolete in GGMax.

2. I totally agree on the rest of your post. The "Zoom-In" when an object is selected, should be optional. I would suggest a menu entry to adjust the users favourite behaviours, like pressing "y" in Samplitude brings up "System" and there you can click a lot of things on / off and make it personal. We need this in GGMax and it doesn´t cluster the now overall very clean GUI.
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Mrs Baird
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 13:31
PLEASE not a another rough push towards editing another ".ini"-File. This would contradict the philosophy of a WYSWYG-editor that is designed to give beginners an easy "entrance" into 3D Game development... Editing .ini-Files is cool, but it makes beginners stay away from fine-tuneing things ... It´s definetly a "Pro"-thing. I´d love to have the power to polish things right out of the main program, this is a pure, logical and direct way.

If that would be my babe I would even integrate the SHADER-ini into the main program and include a menu-set in GGMAX under "options" or make it:

OPTIONS -> MY GUI
OPTIONS -> POLISHING -> SHADER / GAME MENU / WHATHAVEYOU





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Monkey Frog
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 13:58
Quote: "1. I liked the menu, since there was no manual. It helps beginners understand what is possible with the object. Maybe the tutorial-system makes this obsolete in GGMax."


If there is always a Property Panel that opens when an entity is selected, then you remove the extra step of having to click the Properties button, thus eliminating the need for that button. And if there is a Property Panel that opens whenever an entity is selected, then you can instantly see what is possible with the entity/object. It would actually be more intuitive, both for newbies and old-hats alike.

Quote: "PLEASE not a another rough push towards editing another ".ini"-File. This would contradict the philosophy of a WYSWYG-editor that is designed to give beginners an easy "entrance" into 3D Game development... Editing .ini-Files is cool, but it makes beginners stay away from fine-tuneing things ... It´s definetly a "Pro"-thing. I´d love to have the power to polish things right out of the main program, this is a pure, logical and direct way."


I agree. Instead of showing where the FPE files are (or any of the .ini files), it would be pretty awesome if the features of these were in a property panel that the end-user could just access from within the MAX GUI. Some could be simple toggle switches to turn on/off features and others could be text or numeric entry fields to set things that previously would be found in "hidden" FPE and .ini files.
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DVader
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Posted: 24th Apr 2020 17:39 Edited at: 24th Apr 2020 17:42
Contrary to the rumours, Gizmo is not included with GGMax ;p
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Mrs Baird
GameGuru TGC Backer
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Posted: 28th Apr 2020 03:20
Quote: "Now, while I definitely do not like what happens when you click Properties (flying in to focus on the entity), there is something we do need in the 3D view port - the ability to focus on a selection and, via mouse+keyboard shortcut, orbit around the selection. Moving about via WASD keys is nice for navigating a map/level, but you really need to orbit around a selection for various things, like precise placement. I realize that, currently, when you click Properties the default is that you can orbit the item, but you can't do anything to the item itself (scale, translate, or rotate). So, if TGC could add a means of orbiting around a selection, that would rock."


YES, PLEASE!! THIS! BRING IT HERE! THE VERY IT! Excellent idea! /.-)
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