Product Chat / No terrain + stock polys

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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 03:12
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Looking for a way to remove the terrain, but came upon this old thread;

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/208193

What Lee said at the last post was a little confusing. Any relevance there?
So my poly count on a empty map was round 272,000
Then I used the //superflatterrain=1// suggestion, and terrain ground was
still there, but the polys reduced drastically.

I'm curious how to remove the terrain completely, and why stock map poly's
where so extreme? The draw count was much lower though... Noob question.
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benjiboy
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 06:59
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May not be pertinent but if your talking about the empty map that is opened when you first go into GG, I don't think it's flat - just not very bumpy.
Which begs another question.

Why does GG open an empty map whenever you start it?
Why not just open to an empty editor so you can choose to either generate a new map or open an existing one?

It's a real time-waster.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 07:43 Edited at: 18th Feb 2020 07:46
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The ‘superflatterrain’ option replaces the usual terrain object system with one large flat plane object - this geometry can’t be deformed but is of course very low poly to render. It can be hidden as well so doesn’t have to be rendered - thought it is still present in game for physics purposes - if it wasn’t any objects placed with physics enabled would fall down endlessly. You can’t remove this terrain plane completely for this reason.

It’s probably the best option for games that do not for any level use anything other than indoor or absolutely flat terrain.

As to why it loads a new empty map - perhaps so it’s just real easy to start plonking assets down for new users ?

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OldFlak
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 11:59
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Would be good if we could have that as an editor option, so you can have space station maps and planets side maps in the same game.

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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 15:52
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One of the 'beauties' of GG is the ready to plonk stuff down aspect-- I'll agree.
But I also agree with the other guys- options would be nice, especially to eliminate
any ground when desired. So there's no way to do so?

@cybernescence you said
"It can be hidden as well so doesn’t have to be rendered..."
How to do this? How to access it via script? Turn off collision in lua?

Perhaps a good choice would be when GG starts up, a quick little
menu pops up (would take 3 seconds to choose), which would allow
you to enter the terrain type. Standard would already be selected,
so just hit enter to continue on.

For example-

Select terrain;
=> Standard (maybe a sub-menu for the veg/ texture type.)
=> Random (a slider for random height aggression would be a possible bonus.)
=> Superflat
=> None

When the user selects none-- they would have to bear this in mind that there
would be no Objects to land on. Perhaps gravity is automatically turned off.
But of course everything could then be custom scripts in that scenario.
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smallg
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 20:25
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i think the terrain is always on to keep the AI stuff from breaking, you need some sort of navigation mesh even if it's just the superflat terrain or hidden terrain... while i agree it's useful for certain games to not have any terrain or collision or even path finding (space games etc) it's much more common to need it - even indoor games will need path finding and so you need the terrain unless you want to code your own.

and yes, just use HideTerrain() to make the terrain not render (there's a default script called goindoors.lua which hides the terrain and the water)
lua guide for GG
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=398177770
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synchromesh
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 20:30
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Quote: "even indoor games will need path finding and so you need the terrain unless you want to code your own."

Very true ..
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wizard of id
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 20:47 Edited at: 18th Feb 2020 20:49
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While hide terrian would work, easy way to get around that, would be to use a transparent texture, not sure how gameguru will react to a 100% transparent texture.But techinically it should work.Would not need to turn off terrain shadows in the setup file.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 21:12
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No transparent terrain texture won’t work - it’s coded not to respect alpha. Need engine changes to do that.

Cheers.

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Belidos
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 21:45
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Terrain can't be transparent because it uses the alpha channel of the texture as the specular map.

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DVader
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 22:07
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Hideterrain gives a great fps boost. Not sure if combining the flat terrain option is faster, you would imagine so.
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OldFlak
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Posted: 18th Feb 2020 23:24 Edited at: 18th Feb 2020 23:41
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Quote: ""It can be hidden as well so doesn’t have to be rendered..."
How to do this? How to access it via script? Turn off collision in lua?"


goindoors lua will hide water and terrain.....

MAX will have option to have No Terrain at all.
- Hopefully it will be level specific and not binding on the whole game....

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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 19th Feb 2020 00:41
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"MAX will have option to have No Terrain at all."

News to me... cool.
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3com
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Posted: 19th Feb 2020 10:42
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Maybe GGMax may to have different types of default maps, such as:

Superflat terrain map - plane terrain
Random map - like GG does
Space map - no water - no terrain, just space, full of planets sky.
water map - not terrain, just water
Apocaliyse map - apo terrain with building debris, holes, and so on.

And something others.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 03:31
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@OldFlak : I have had a lot of requests for switching terrain off from the editor, and per level, so I suspect some kind of tickbox in the right panel for terrain editing. Knowing this before I start the new terrain system will help a lot. I am also thinking it would make sense to cut holes in the terrain too if we decide not to go with Voxels, so you can cut through into underground scenes without a lot of fussing and hacks. Some good ideas coming in how on the research for the terrain, should be great fun applying all the lessons from the last five years to a complete rewrite!
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OldFlak
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 07:47
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Sounds great Lee - thanks for the info

Naelurec has both space and planet-side levels.
The space levels have more polys - simply because there are more models needed - so it would be good to remove as many unused polys as possible.

Being able to cut holes in the terrain would be cool too - be great solution for tunnels etc.

MAX is sounding better and better....

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benjiboy
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 12:19 Edited at: 20th Feb 2020 12:30
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How would you do the 'cut holes' thing without voxels? Two terrain arrays - allowing floor and ceiling height?
Nope - I don't think that works - how do you handle having a texture on the underside of the ceiling and on the top side of the floor, and the point where ceiling turns into wall turns into floor.

Hmm.
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granada
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 13:34
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Quote: "How would you do the 'cut holes' thing without voxels? Two terrain arrays - allowing floor and ceiling height?
Nope - I don't think that works - how do you handle having a texture on the underside of the ceiling and on the top side of the floor, and the point where ceiling turns into wall turns into floor."


You could cut a hole into the terrain and fit your underground model or cave using the terrain hole as a entrance


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benjiboy
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 14:38
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With shift+enter to make it sit under the floor?
Any dynamic entity is gonna fall forever n'est ce pas?
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 16:12
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If there was any kind of horizontal drilling, that would be IMMENSE!
Only there's still the need to find "ground @ 'X,'Z'- and now 'Y'"
So if Lee has a plan- awesome!
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cybernescence
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 17:32
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It can be done:

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/213870?page=7#msg2619936

https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/213870?page=7#msg2620178

Takes a lot of engine wrangling though (at the moment - assume max will be much better).

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Earthling45
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 18:59
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This is also done in the far cry editor i believe by removing a terrain polygon and hence have an opening for a bunker or so beneath the terrain.
It does however have to be a closed bunker because if not, and you look up, you'll be seeing all the entities which are placed on the terrain.
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3com
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 19:50
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You can dig the tunnel just as it would in the snow.
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DVader
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 20:00
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Quote: "Any dynamic entity is gonna fall forever n'est ce pas?"

Not if you turn off it's gravity, or just sit it on a model.

@ Lee. I've seen there are no plans to change the terrain size. I would suggest, as it is being wrote from scratch, you should really think about at least the option. As you say, better to plan ahead and what better time than when starting from scratch. I'm not saying promise it as definite, but at least try to future proof it so it will be easy to add in and not mean another re-write or worse stay the same. I'm sure people would love to see a terrain size option in the UI. Even Matedit back in DB days had the option
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benjiboy
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 20:37 Edited at: 20th Feb 2020 20:43
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It's gotta be as simple as raising a hill or it's just going to be a turn off to all the people who aren't into engine wrangling.

+1 for selectable terrain size. - 256,512, 1024 would cover most needs and avoid the need for chasms and mountains to constrain the player.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 22:10
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It depends what sort of game, if you have flying or driveable vehicles run out of terrain real fast, so needs another method. If starting from scratch, procedural and paging segments that can be swapped in and out based on player position perhaps.

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benjiboy
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 22:55
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@cybernescence Which kind of begs for auto load of next world N,S,E and W. I can't think of an engine that gives that flexibility, or are you just suggesting more sizes upward? I think we're 1024x1024 at the moment?
It certainly could be a possibility, based upon user setting - reach max x -> shift to map e, max y-> shift to map s, etc. But don't you want, generally, to be directing the player along the storyline, rather than just exploring, (I know some games do but is that GG's focus)?
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Earthling45
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 23:07
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It's about having the possibility to have larger maps, or smaller of course.
For my fortified town, the current map size is to small.
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DVader
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 23:25 Edited at: 20th Feb 2020 23:28
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Yes, the option would be nice. For fast paced shooters you can use a smaller map and for more RPG like games a bigger map is King. Not to mention the fact on a fair sized hill or mountain you can generally see the edge of the map, even the water. Although i haven't done much in GG of late so maybe that has been addressed.
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smallg
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 23:30
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Quote: "Which kind of begs for auto load of next world N,S,E and W. I can't think of an engine that gives that flexibility"

async loading is in the big engines for sure, it's how they made this

it's not really terrain but has thousands (maybe millions) of entities being seamlessly loaded and removed as the player moves around - it's very much capable of doing the same with terrain

would be nice to get the option to add new neighbor terrains (in a grid) to expand the existing terrain

Quote: "I think we're 1024x1024 at the moment?"

1024 what? the current terrain is 51k units in GG, but yes a basic scale would be nice too (even if fixed to 25% increments as you suggest)
lua guide for GG
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DVader
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 23:35
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That looks pretty impressive
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benjiboy
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Posted: 20th Feb 2020 23:43
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Is that 51k units per side?
I was basing my numbers on the current GG heightmap - which, looking in the file, seemed to be 1024x1024, and that is what I think BOTR is using in HM2GG.

Entity placement is on a much more granular scale, to be sure.

The fundametal thing is that map size should be selectable.
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GubbyBlips
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Posted: 21st Feb 2020 00:44
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The topics are seeming incoherent and jumbled about.
Approx 50,000 total units x or z = GG ground size for scripting entity positions.
If they keep designing GG and GGMAX to such a basic precept that a two year
old can do it, progress on the engine will always remain highly constrained.

The developers goal in GGMAX I think should be for a higher level of flexibility
and a lower level of constrainment.
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