Hey gang,

I am not trying to be a malcontent for the sake of it but have you seen some of the recent GG tutorials on YT?

They seem to teach how to use the editor which I suppose they do a decent enough job at but are also showing some really ghastly approaches to level design. I am talking mismatched props, very 90s looking stretched terrain and just bad optimization.

This video, where the author is working on some cave is a prime example for that.
Not only is sticking rocks together to make a cavernous hallway extremely bad practice for optimization and simple aesthetic reasons, the way its done here in combination with terrain walls is just wrong.

(I did chuckle at the moment where he points out that he does not like the straight bottom line of the asset he awkwardly stuck into the terrain, mentions how it sticks out, yet does not seem all too much concerned with how its an entirely different rock coloration than anything in the surroundings.)

Now the above example could be perceived as nit picking but I just can't shake the feeling watching these videos that its precisely how NOT to use Game Guru. All these example levels he creates look precisely like the kind of game a very young first time user would create to then receive pointers from this community on how to improve. In fact, I find it odd if the official tutorials produce maps of such sub-standard quality, that they look exactly like the types of maps you find in the steam cash-grab releases we seem to regularly be weary of.

I might be out of touch here but I do believe that the official tutorials should adhere to a certain "average" quality, as they represent the product and kind of also show what is to be achieved once you learned the ropes. Isn't it a bit dire when they just look like games this community would harshly criticize? Its certainly not casting a good light on the product as a whole, if I where to look up tutorials on this software, to get a feel for it as a new customer and see that one of the official tutorials shows a castle level that looks like a molten playmobil set from the 90s, I think I'd pass long before I ever got to the wip section of this community.

Its certainly commendable that there are beginner videos out there, teaching the interface and the short cuts, but I honestly feel like GG is such a straight forward software that this can be done, in depth, in a single 20 to 30 minutes video.

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Now, by contrast, Duchenkuke has created a few tutorials going into standard features of Game Guru that look exactly like I feel these official ones SHOULD look.

DK Terrain Tutorial
DK Lighting Tutorial
DK Weapon Sound quick fix
and more on his channel for those interested.



-Wolf

holy words

Its not a secret that the tuts from tgc are directed to beginners, newbies that never used FPSC and softwares like this.
We "advanced" users (as far as I can modestly call myself that), we make our own tutorials as the example of DK shows.I Learned with this kind of tutorials fps creator, so yea they fulfill their purpose.But generaly i know what u mean, theres a lack of good tutorials that show how to make a game looking good, many users just throw some models toghether without thinking about details, without making the terrain looking natural, using mountains as "walls" 4 the level...

To be fair though, the tutorials just started and meant to demonstrate the tools available in GG and not meant to teach level design practices yet.
The DK videos you linked for example, looks nice indeed but not that interesting to watch and not very informative. Looks nice, quality of level is good indeed but you just have no idea what is he doing unless you are already familiar with the tools and how they work, and this is exactly what the tutorials cover right now.

I'm sure TGC could and will release some level design tutorials too if there will be enough interest and they can find someone with the experience who willing to shoot the videos. They covered the basics now. Next week they cover Blender basics. After some scripting basics and then depends on the demand, Evan mentioned to be interested to cover more advanced Blender content and more advanced scripting and after or before could be even level design practices I guess.

@Zigi: I touched on that in my initial post and am aware that these are not level design tutorials per se. As I said, teaching GG's interface functions and short cuts could be done in a short, concise 20 to 30 minutes video. I'm in no way implying that these tutorials should be amazing visually, just that I find they should adhere to an "average" standard as they do represent the product and they do show levels being made, yet quite poorly. Whenever something structural is being built I feel like its done quite unwell... that cave I linked is a prime example as using plenty of relatively high poly props to create a cavern is just bad practice.

As I said, I can be wrong and if these really do teach people how to operate the software better, then fine, yet I found it too noticeable to not bring it up.

This is my point, these tutorials are meant to teach complete beginners how to get started with the tools and not how to use them better. I understand they teach some bad practices which is a shame, I don't argue that but that is not the focus right now but to teach the basics and have fun with GG in the process.
I'm sure if there will be demand and they can find someone with the experience to make tutorials to teach people how to use the tools better and teach some level design practices. All we need to do is ask actually, they constantly ask in the video what we would like to see and most people was asking for Blender so that's coming next. But it could be also level design I guess if we ask for it.

The shame! im a YORKSHIRE LAD and the tutorial guy sounds yorkshire or lancastrian north of england.

Not me.

Shocking tutorial he should of just maximised a boulder to its largest and flattened it a bit then used it to do a botched tunnel. This guy is making a botched tunnel poly heavy and more contrasted and iffy

Hes literally made crap ideas worse..

I think he meant well tbh. And if he is on these boards and reads this i will actually say drop me a pm and i will help you to do a better one with some assets i make for him to restore faith in northern england game making

Even as a beginner I realize that the tutorials don't show the best ways of designing a level.
I'm sure he could do even better and just wants to show some rough work so that the videos would not get too long.
I wasn't even thinking about copying his methods into my own work because I'm very ambitious about my project and know what it should look like.
Everyone who really wants to put serious effort in his project should know by himself, that you can't just throw some assets together.
You are right that the basic functions could be explained in 20-30 minutes, but for a complete beginner it is not always that easy.
A lot of things you guys know inside out are not that obvious for beginners because the lack of current documentation.
I read all the manuals in the GG folder and it often turned out that some things have already changed years ago.
So in terms of tutorials that are not years old, as a GG user you have to take what you can, even though I understand your views that some things could have done better in the videos to show GG stand in good light but then someone really has to do something about it.
I really enjoy his video tutorials because of the way he teaches and explains everything well through examples.

I'm going to give my personal opinion about, but I advise it just work for me, cause: my "Oxford english" is not enought fine to understand what's the author is talking about, and usually the author of these videos speak and speak almost the 70% of the video I miss that part since I don't understand what he said.
So, for me and just for me, the ideal video tuto is a tuto without audio or maybe a sweet music, do the things slowly. make zoom when neede, if you hit a button, please let me know wich button is, just do it zoom to the scene; if you use a shortcut please let me know, po up some prompt, ie: CTRL + RMB. If you are modeling, please let know what measure unity are you using for, metric, units?
And so on.
Anyway I prefer pdf file instead of video tuto, for obvious reasons.

I'm less concerned about the level design aspect than i am the informational content. There are a few mistakes in there that can be seen as misinformation.

For example: in one of the videos he basically mentions that (i forget the exact words he said right now) using the "snap" mode is like "grid" mode but in smaller increments, when that is not the case at all, "snap" mode acts how it sounds, it snaps the model to similar faces on other models.

Level design is something you learn as you go along, and while ultimately may effect how your project's viewed, won't be a disaster for the user starting off, but bad information like that will confuse new users and make them think something is broken and frustrate them.

I can only confirm that.
I tried to follow a [video=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnzN5jW-uL4]tutorial[/video] today.
It was very difficult to follow the individual steps. And since you never get an overview of the script as a whole, I certainly overlooked something. Or misunderstood. Anyway, it was a torture and unsuccessful.
My door does everything, but not what it should...

@fumar
2 post a yt video paste only the part after watch?v=
in r case its "lnzN5jW-uL4"

@osiem80, thank you for the hint. I've been wondering...

"the way its done here in combination with terrain walls is just wrong."

There is no right or wrong when it comes to art. I wourldnt use this method Myself in GG and the look of the result courld be discussed,
but thats up to the eye of the beholder. (This technique is often used in UE, some People are great with this technique)...

A lot of interesting replies so far and I also like to see that some of you have use out of these tutorial videos, so they seem not to be as expendable as I assumed. I stand corrected in that regard but I am also glad not to be the only one a bit taken aback by the visual quality of these.



-Wolf

For me it's the audio quality on those tutorials I cannot stand. The constant high frequency buzz in the background is just obnoxious. Sometimes it sounds like a dog or something is snoring in the background? You can buy a cheap 25$ condenser mic that will sound 1000x better and it will increase production value. Maybe put the audio through a low pass filter and filter out the crazy buzz.

I do respect that TGC is at the very least got something on-going that is supportive to newcomers. Respect for Evan for taking that on.

Though I think the way GG is in general and from the beginning has been very much this large sandbox level of just going to plopping down whatever you want doing whatever you want, stretching meshes in angles without maintaining their aspect ratio scales and etc. A sort of for fun level maker. But for anyone actually looking to make a game with GG there is a LOT of consideration involved. Optimization is #1 and then the connective flow of level design. Asset theme and quality consistency and other factors. Funny enough what is often not concerned in the very detailed aspects of level design is some trees are not even in the same country as other trees that are often used together. I've been guilty of this when doing quick mock ups.

So from an artistic and professional approach, there is so much to consider. For a basic intro in, i think the videos are passable however I think there are some fundamental level design and optimization techniques missing here.

Again great work Evan for taking on such a task in creating these videos. As i believe its a much-needed component for the engine. Though indie game dev world is a weird realm where you have people new to the engine who may be either completely new to game design or people who are actually already in the industry looking for a simpler more affordable tool (mainly the assets) to make their own personal game without controlling overhead. So you'll have a wide range of expectations to fill.

I think maybe at some point TGC might want to consider a video dedicated just to optimization techniques and one around level design. Of course, any community member can do videos of their own which has and is already happening but from TGC directly it might be wise. As showing that you care about the actual end process of making a finished quality optimized game.. it shows a lot of honesty to the integrity of the product, in itself.

(not a rant, just agreeing here). Still think its great that there is regular tutorials being pumped out.

May be one of you professional level designers could do a series of videos showing the correct way to create a fully-fledged game?

We had some good responses in YouTube comments with respect to Series 1 which is why we greenlit a Series 2 to go more in-depth. From this post, however, it sounds like there is enough wrong with the videos to perhaps cut Series 2 short and go back to the drawing board using your feedback to come up with a new plan for the videos we post on our YouTube channel, especially if you feel it is damaging GameGuru.

I rather liked the fact the videos are doing the kind of things a new user might do (including amateur level design and year-one rookie mistakes), it feels more like taking the journey with the narrator, less authoritative, more relatable. Alas, it appears I am in the minority.

Feel free to post some "+1's" to keep Series 2 going to the end (it's about 14 videos over 7 weeks at present), and in the mean-time, I will send Evan here to pick up some tips on what he can do better (aside from changing his accent). If the community want them scrapped in favor of something more professional, we will need to come up with a revised plan. On that score, if anyone fancies the job of making professional GameGuru YouTube videos, please do get in touch directly to: lee@thegamecreators.com

Personally, i think it should carry on, in my opinion level design isn't what's being taught, just the basics of how to use GameGuru, which he is doing fairly well. However, someone really needs to look through them carefully before they're uploaded because there have been a couple of items he has explained, and his explanation has actually been wrong, for example as i mentioned above he tried to explain the snap/grid modes without actually knowing what they did (he basically said that snap mode was the same as grid but in smaller increments, which as you know is very wrong). So, as i said, in my opinion keep them as they are but have someone make sure any technical information given is correct before releasing them.

Not disagreeing with the overall feeling but in this case Layman's terms perhaps for those not versed in the mechanics ?

Please let Evan continue his tutorials. I'm really looking forward to the Blender things he wanted to show.
I check Youtube every day and the first thing I do after work is getting a coffeee and see if he released a new video.
Btw I grew up in Germany and have no problem understanding his accent.

Hi Folks! Just thought it might be a good idea to step in a little here...

When I first started the tutorial series, my idea was to offer a more relaxed introduction to GameGuru and the things it can do. There are lots of tutorials already out there that show breakdowns of tools and their functions and I wanted to try something different.

In doing what I do, I wanted to allow anyone, no matter their age or skill level to see that it is not an impossible dream to make a game, and by doing it in real-time it can allow people to follow along if they so choose.

I`m aware I made a few poor design choices... I actually went back and removed the sandstone cave roof in a later 'mop-up' video. The entire cave was actually inspired by a comment from a viewer and I thought it was a pretty cool idea, so I ran with it

Reading through this thread, it seems the audio quality is a concern. I`ll definitely look into that, but I`m originally from the wilderness of Northern England, so I`m afraid I can do nothing about my accent!

If anyone has any concerns or comments or feedback, please feel free to email me directly at gameguruevangelist@gmail.com. I`m always happy to receive constructive criticism. It is the best way to learn

Also, @KRivva, thanks for your comments I`ll be uploading the Blender to GameGuru section very soon!

I haven't seen the videos, but in fairness to whoever made them (lol, just noticed the author is above my post), if you are doing a tutorial (or several) with a specific purpose in mind, the last thing you want to do is spend even more time making it look pretty! It would take a lot longer and really is just fluff. Of course if the tutorial is about level design then obviously you would want it to look reasonable.

Non audio can avoid the issue.
I had seen many video tutos zero audio and you can understand all he does. Making zoom when needed, prompting when using hotkeys, ie: ctrl+z, step by step; and you'll end with a video-tuto for everybody, does not matter if the user is english speaker or does not.

I wouldn't get at all upset by criticism from long termers here, they will tell new users the same things, which is why they will criticise anything that appears to negate any good advice. All the same I watched the video and couldn't understand why you wouldn't scale those rocks up to use less of 'em and since they are seen from a distance texture quality due to scaling wouldn't have been a problem, nor would they have required any collision. It's little things like that will make all the difference to optimisation and keeping a decent frame rate, after all you did mention the negligible impact which would arise from using skyscroll, so it's kind of daft to mention that but build a rock roof using tons of small rocks.
This was done in the same way several years ago by Lee in one of his videos so you probably picked up on that. But I would try to be aware of the fact that GameGuru assets are really not optimised very well out of the box and it takes a fair bit of work and awareness to keep a decent framerate when building levels in it. That way the tutorials will be of more value to new users and maybe cut down a little on the "my comp can run blah,blah.blah at full settings...but this lags" reviews you get on the likes of Steam.
At least it looks like someone from TGC is actually trying to use the product to create a level design but I reckon down the line if you continue to build on this and maybe complete a final working build from it all you will find yourself changing most of it since it will run like treacle and you will jump onto Steam to leave the expected bad review where it lags so bad it is unusable...lol.

The point is it might be best to show good practices early on in these tutorials so those following along will be more informed now and not later in the day when it's too late and they dropped the program and moved on

Nothing wrong with the video content and showing its possible to have fun using it (if placing all those little rocks to fill a huge gap is your thing then fine....lol) but I reckon most users would prefer to stick a few large ones there and move on to setting up their killing spree

The aesthetics are not important and as said in posts above it is acceptable to present your videos as the way a new user may do it concerning the Artwork and design, but it's important to present it as a game designer since that is the whole point of the product.

Keep doing the videos. And the accent is no problem at all

I rather choose an accents than a non-voice video, with typing. Most of the times in non audio videos, its hard to read the writing in the video clearly. VOICE please.

Also the way Evan is doing it, for me is a much better way, than spending an hour to perfect a specific look...rather show us what Game Guru can/cant do. So the past series 1, and also Series 2 up to know if more than enough for me to help me as a newbie....

Those who complain, and think they can do better.... then I think it's time to do your video and submit to Lee...

I'm pretty sure that they don't receive any "payment" for this, and it takes a lot of time, editing, re-record etc... A normal 30minute video can take you upto 3-5 hours editing, or re-do some parts, if you know your Editing software well enough.

+100 Evan... keep doing it please...

Video talking about the new LUA commands stated in global.lua file with examples, might be a good start point.
Something clearest than a simple "command used by the default player control mechanism", not claim here, just suggestion.

@ Evan
Thanks a lot for you work, and for the time you have dedicated to making these video tutorials.

Amen!

To reiterate, I never expected the tutorials to be something amazing as I clearly stated, they should be functional but also amount to something average in presentation. I feel like some people thought I said that we need tutorials to show all GG can do. No. But they should also not dramatically undersell its capabilities.

I see a lot of comments that the point of these tutorials are not related to level design, well, the GG interface itself is a level designer. All other aspects of game design are handled externally, so if you showcase the controls, I think its beneficial to show them in good practice with a halfway decent scene to present them in for the reasons mentioned above.

However, as I said, it seems that a lot of people find these tutorials useful so its a good thing that Evan intends to make more of them.



-Wolf

Don't know why is it so difficult to process these were "getting started" tutorials for complete beginners and it was focusing on demonstrating the engine and editor features and not practices. To really show and explain good practices with complete beginners in mind could easily turn a 30 minutes video in to 2 hours which is a lot to record, edit and render. It was simply not the focus now.
Loading... and processing.... right? At least try it please, not that hard.


Maybe not? I was looking forward to the Blender tutorials he was told to release this week but he didn't. I guess he is not committed to it.
Since most of you who think knows better how to make tutorials are content creators selling store items, and experienced GameGuru users would be nice if some of you could offer to TGC to make some quality and pro tutorials? That would be great and more useful than complaining and criticising in this topic.

It is a fact that had 'good practices' been used in the making of the video in question and probably others that they would have been a lot shorter not longer as you suggest. All the same it appears that Lee Bamber has suggested he would point Evan here to see if he could pick up some tips to improve the videos and Evan himself has said he is happy to receive constructive criticism. I don't really think criticizing the critics is really helping here, when really the 'critics' may actually be more concerned about the product image and the bigger picture which isn't a bad thing. Though you appear to think it is. I have no idea where you got " could easily turn a 30 minutes video in to 2 hours" which sounds like something you have made up and present as fact.
The general opinion seems to be that Evan should continue with the video series and I see nothing wrong with folks making suggestions to improve them, but if the general opinion is also that no one has the right to make suggestions then may as well lock the thread as there is nothing more to be said either way.

What I have taken primarily from the videos are the pointers to beginner mistakes in lazy prop choice and placement. I have really spindly machines to work on so including cpu/gpu saving techniques would be a real bonus, but overall, definitely worthwhile for the newb. Please do a 'next level' series. A level design series? I'm not sure. It's a huge subject and the nooks and crannies would - I expect - be very game style dependent - fps rush around, horror creep, rpg wandering - all imply different style in level design, different ways of using props. Don't get me wrong - I'd love a series of tutorials for all of them.

I would like 2 see how to make untypical places using the terrain editor and models, like trenches 4 example.