I am a compulsive game developer - I need to be doing it. That's why I can't just wait for decades for GameGuru to be ready. I did wait for a number of years before I was forced to go elsewhere. Since then I have published three games on Steam and have a forth coming out on 22 August. I made all these games without needing to write a single line of Lua script or code. I don't say this to pat myself on the back. My point is that the idea that you need to do scripting in order to get innovative results or achieve your grand design goals is, in my experience, a myth. Frankly, scripting or coding would just bore me and kill all the fun.


Almost anything can be achieved without scripting, provided the right tools are available. In this case that means some kind of visual logic/programing sytem. For example, I like Zigi's Logic Chain idea. The game engine I have been using lately uses a system of action boxes (each containing whatever and how many runtime actions you want) connected to each other by links containing whatever conditions you want. I have found it to be very powerful. I look in on GameGuru about once every six months but I don't see much evidence of development (of course, I know there must have been advances). I can't return until GameGuru can do what I need it to do. Perhaps you think I am lazy or unrealistic to want a system for creating logic without scripting. I would disagree. I know it can be done. And as for lazy - I worked very hard every day for twelve months to create my last game.

I know GameGuru sometimes gets slated on Steam because so many games created with it look the same. Why do they look the same? I believe it is because GameGuru (formerly known as the 'easy game maker') attracts a lot of people who, understandably, want to develop unique games without scripting, modelling and texturing (the developers of Shoot 'Em Up Kit tell me they are working on a system whereby objects can be created within the app by bolting parts together). I can't return until there is at least a logic creating feature. It saddens me because I would love to make an FPS game.


Also, Style Guru is great but I think GameGuru needs that kind of functionality built-in.

'Game Making For Everyone' (provided they can do Lua or don't mind their games being the same as all the others).


I probably won't read the scathing retorts to my comments. I am busy working on my latest project.

@lordjulian : Can I ask why you posted this, hopefully not to read scathing replies I read a report recently which confirmed 72% of ALL developers use Unity, and 23% of ALL developers use Unreal. I think you are right that the modern world wants something easier than trawling through endless symbols that need to be chained together in a very specific way (and spend years doing it) before they can produce something they can call their own. Very happy to hear you've made games, that's definitely the goal so well done there! Just curious why you are posting in our little neck of the woods

.

Why would you need to come back

Dave

I would need to come back to make FPS games. The game engine I now use is kind of 2D.

Lee, good to hear from you too. I have missed this community and the golden age of GameGuru. Your weekly Twitch broadcasts were my favorite TV show. My reason for posting is that I wanted to give my take on how GameGuru could be made usable. Having been away for a while, I have experienced how good it can be to express one's creativity unfettered by the lack of scripting knowhow. The crux of GameGuru's problem has been brought into sharp focus.

I now have some sympathy for people who claim GameGuru is little more than a level editor. Because, unless you have scripting skills, that is kind of true. The character creator is fun but not really good enough for the serious developer.


Sorry if you thought my post was out of line. I wasn't trying to be provocative. It's just that I would like to use GameGuru for my next project. I have always wanted to make an FPS but I do not want to make 'just another GameGuru game'. I know lots of developers have done some amazing things with GameGuru but I doubt they used GameGuru itself to create the stuff that made their games stand out. I think it is unrealistic to expect to do everything in one app but I think GameGuru could and should have much more functionality built in.

Hey Julian!

Consider this, you said yourself that you are compulsive in making games, as in, you can't stop. So would it not be prudent to perhaps take 20 minutes aside each evening to learn scripting and modeling?
I mean, if you are always doing it anyway and if you are probably going to do so for years to come you might want to evolve your skills.
If you do this for a couple weeks you'll probably be able to do it and then you can truly make any game you want to and tackle any engine you want to. I just don't think any customizable options for pre-made content will truely statisfy you.

I mean, I'm not too hot in modeling or texturing and certainly not scripting but people play my games and so far I don't recall anyone calling it a clone or derivative. You don't have to master these skills, you just gotta get basic grips on 'em.



-Wolf

If GameGuru helped you in some way to get into game making, then I am pretty happy with that I don't think GameGuru would ever be the replacement for a tool used by serious game developers (i.e. who need it for their livelihood). If it can be used to ease someone into the idea of making their own simple game, then I am okay with that. Happy to leave professional game making to the big boys

Yes and that's really the problem .. I have things like Smile Game Builder, 001 Game Creator, Clickteam Fusion 2.5 in my steam library i dabble with now and again which as you say you can create games without scripting.


Except good fps games it seems .. Pretty much every 3D engine out there from GameGuru to Unity does need custom scripting at some point so i dont think GG can really be knocked to much for that especially as you haven't had any luck finding an alternative to do this yet. The thing about making your own assets and even knowing a very little bit of scripting is the self satisfaction of seeing your own unique game develop. But we all need help now and again and I know I couldn't do without it.

No-one has asked yet?

Okay. Where should I start? Here's what I think... Well, I know that I don't
think like 99% of the users around here, on these forums or the long term
folk who have been around, and frankly what I'm talking about is that FPS
games is NOT anything I have much interest in-- this will all come to a point
(I hope)... hehe. I do enjoy a good RTS game, Adventure game, Top Down
RPG game. (My favorite games have been the original Command and Conquer,
Warcraft, and Fate games.)

Just all the gore and endless killing sprees isn't me. So what I'm getting
at is... lordjulian; what kind of scripting ((let's assume that you WOULD try
to learn scripting))-- but what kind of scripting would you like to implement
into your games? Animations? Moving objects? Making traps??
Gathering inventory?? Level up character?

Just wondering-- there is quite a bit of ready made scripts, and lot's of helpful
people hanging round here! So I'm just curious... What would you like to
do in your games that scripting knowledge would help you in?

Congrats on your success so far in game making... I for one went the other
route and almost hate making maps any more because of GG issues-- and just
am piddling around with scripts here and there... nothing too major

BTW == THIS! => Was the BEST First Person Shooter, Multiplayer game that ever
existed!
Unfortunately, it has disappeared from the radar altogether years ago... Army Earth
==>>

I actually really enjoying scripting in Game Guru. The skies the limit when it comes to scripting and i think that is why i just love working with it. Having all kinds of fun with it. Its optional. Took me 3 months to learn and was very much worth while for me:

@lordjulian how your games are called? I would like to buy and test them!

Hey lordjulian, glad to know you are making games.

For me a game must be far from reality.
A game is an imaginary world that you build to lose yourself in.
Here the laws of physics should not exist, here frogs fly, and raindrops can be as large as you want.
If you do not learn to get away from reality when you play, you will not enjoy the game, since you will always be comparing what you see with reality, and then you will start to consider things like that in real life men do not fly, so you turn off the computer and you will go to the cinema to see the superman movie, where the men "do not fly".

Google is your friend ..
I found 3 including the one due to be released in august but the forth eludes me.

he didn't say he doesn't use scripts, no game can possibly do anything without them after all, just that he uses a node based system or a flow chart system, something more basic than writing the code yourself... it's still creating scripts, you just don't type them yourself.
so it sounds like he's asking if GG will ever get a similar system.
i think this is the closest thing we have so far

I remember that and backed it , So did Lee I believe … Turned out no one was really that interested in the end

Hey, it's great to see all these familiar names! Wolf - could point. I suppose I just don't like working with raw text. I like visual stuff.

Sychromesh, I think I have most of the apps you mentioned. I love Smile Game Builder. I think its first person camera mode is cool. Last time we chatted about that you said it was too expensive.

Teabone and others - hi!

@

AI Anomaly
Dickie A Cumming
Someone Cloned The President
Call of Booty.

Unfortunately, Call of Booty had to be removed because Activision's lawyers thought it infringed on Call of Duty's trademark. It remains my most successful game so far. It was downloaded over 10,000 times before I was forced to remove it. I totally wasn't expecting that!

I have tried alot of other game engines before, and they all suck.

Gameguru is the only engine that I like to use.

Gameguru rocks, baby!

I wourld love to see a Kismet kind of tool in Gameguru, but until then I will try to learn lua. I just think that there courld be a lua tutorial map among the other scripts with simple functions like make a moving object, add animation to moving object, if else examples, etc etc. And some scripts were every line is explained..

It was but i managed to get it on a deal
Basicly all of my steam stuff is Development orientated in some way ..

Leadwerks has a Beautiful Flowgraph system that allows you to enable a character when a door opens amongst many other things for example. Its so easy to see what i have done with hardly any knowledge but Leadwerks really is a scripting engine and free ones are scarce.
It would also benefit from some of GG's features and vice versa .. But that's always the problem .. There is no perfect engine.

@ synchromesh I hate this sort of thing. You still have to know what the various commands/links are for, it just makes it a slower process than typing in the commands. You have to learn them whichever system you use.

I also remember someone trying to get people to invest in a similar thing for GG, but it didn't go anywhere as far as I know. I could be wrong, but have zero interest anyway.

@ lordjulian. I'm pretty sure Unreal has a system like this. I tried it and hated it, but if you prefer it you may like it.

Not at all … each object is added automatically so in GG if I added a triggerzone it would be added to the flowgraph
Then I join the trigger1 collision Enable ( is in stood on it ) to open asset sliding door 1 or anything else I want , music, enable characters, etc.. Much faster than manually doing it and a visual of whats going on
But that's just me perhaps.

This does not avoid scripting … just a more powerful way of controlling the environment.


No your right it was mentioned above ..

The main problem with these kinds of 'lego brick' systems is that they don't scale well.

They are fine for simple repetitive trigger/action uses, like the trigger zone/open door example or trigger zone/play sound for example. Although as a couple of lines of Lua can achieve the same thing it is a bit overkill for that type of thing.

But something like an AI script or a vehicle script?

I really prefer follow the GG system of making games.
About code, personally prefer the freedom to code myself rather than a node based system; certainly it gives to non-coders the chance to code easily, but at long time it should happens like make maths mentally, without the need for the calculator, I remember that it was easier for me before.
If you start coding with those gadgets, you will probably never experience the magic and pleasure of writing code.

The flowgraph isn't a visual script editor ( You still need scripts … GG has a lot more than Leadwerks )
its more a properties thing that synchronises multiple built in scripts.
The trigger1 opens the sliding door and the door opening triggers the static soldiers to become active.
Sounds simple and is. It just tells scripts what to do, when and where.

However writing a script for a trigger zone to activate a door whilst enabling static soldiers that have to be allies and attack the enemy is an absolute non starter for me

But the flowgraph gave me this result without typing a single thing in .. Whats more its fun doing it

Well assuming you had the same scripts in GG it would be equally as easy without any extra scripting.

i.e. the 'lever' would have a script that activate it's 'ifused' thingy in which you specify the door entity.
The doors 'ifused' thingy would spawn the AI entities, simple really.

What is missing is the scripts on the individual entities to allow you to link them via the 'ifused' property.

it makes nuances of changing languages back and forth easier but yes, as people who can code, they are definitely slower to use.


yep, also one of the reasons they are slower to use is because for complex tasks it's generally easier (and better) to rely on custom functions which these systems generally don't do well.

however such a system would not mean removing the ability to code, it's simply another method to allow, those who find it easier, a method to code their game... everybody could learn to use blender or 'make human' or any of the other million programs available to make objects and characters but GG still offers the EBE and character creator and though personally i do (did) not want to see work done on any such project(s) by Lee, i am merely pointing out that if there was a demand for it it shouldn't be ignored simply because it's not useful to those of us who can already do said task.

Indeed it could No arguments there
In fact thats all it is but as i originally said its just a Beautiful Flowgraph where you can visually see exactly what you have done .. Even now going back a level to modify I think " right how the hell did I do that " and often have to go through every asset i used to see what i did to to get that particular sequence to work. So its a fast visual reference as well as a point and click if i wanted to quickly modify.

Dont forget you guys are scripting gods. It can get really confusing for us mortals
Wasn't asking or recommending it for GG just following the flow of the discussion about visual aids for using scripts ..
There are a lot of things in GG that would benefit Leadwerks in the same way

@synchomesh

Very nice level there. But You must have done some programming on the bullet-trace? The AIs moves very smooth and natural, everything looks great except the prison bars that looks a bit Half Life 1 or FPSC. It wourld also look cool if there were more Prisoners. I understand this is just a demo, but the gameplay looks cool. Why not make a fullscale level of it and use it as level1 as a training mission?
Great job!


About flowgraph Everybody understands it wourld never fully replace scripting. A good thing with sutch a "Lego" system is that You can see ALL the "scripts" in Your level at the same time though... Dont agree that it is slower than scripting, when You have learned how to use it its much faster than scripting. But I dont know, maybe it wourld just add some more GG bugs...

The target audience for Game Guru has always been indie game developers who lack some or most of the skills to build a game totally from the ground up. Don't know how to model and texture? Don't worry, Game Guru has you covered with thousands of assets, DLC packs, and store content. But if you don't know how to script (and let's not forget, GG was for a long time marketed as a game engine for those who don't like to code), you're severely limited with what you can create out of the box...lest you team up with a kindly member of the community, or trawl through the forums here.

Game Guru should, above all things, be easy-to-use for those new to game development. I have suggested implementing a node-based script builder for years. It wouldn't be there to replace hand-written LUA, it would merely be a time-saving tool and a good learning platform to teach newcomers the synax of scripting.

Having said that, for me it's a nice-to-have right now and is less of a priority to me than fixing the engine's bugs and finishing its lightmapper and PBR capabilities.

AE

My search results are full of my academic work. Google shows the themes it thinks you are most interested in, so even I google cooking receipts, I get results about completely unrelated stuff.

@synchromesh
I see you have some experience in such node tools. Can you send me per pm a simple example what you think it should do. I simply not understand your image.

@lordjulian Thanks for the nice answer

I think I mentioned (in some lost, buried thread somewhere), how it would
be quite nice to have some kind of visual reference to the scripts that you
are implementing on your current map. So similarly to the visual entities list
on the left side, some kind of script list that is available, and where it is used.

I'm not sure of the best way, but yeah, and also that is for quick and easy
reference when you want to re-use that script, just link the script to the object
you are currently working with....

HA HA. But now I must admit that the funnest little game I made so far (for me) is
a map with just ONE script and ONE object! LOL. Yeah... working on the second part.