Let's have this discussion.

At first, after reading the reply from Preben i wondered if this should be the desired route for TGC to take.
I can imagine that there will be much criticism when (core) features are in the form of a DLC.
But then again, it can also be a valuable replacement for the donation system and a way to greatly expand GG and its userbase.
With that i mean, having GG as a base, solid and bug free, this will of course be up to Lee, how he thinks about it but my thinking is to undress GG and get it to be a solid base with which people can start to be introduced with game making.
A solid base which can be expanded with wanted features in the form of thirdt party DLC.


my reply to Preben.

After the criticism it is quite understandable that you withdraw your offer, Preben.
Thank you for all you've done so far, it is highly appreciated.

I havent heard about any plans on that and core features as DLC's are most unlikely.

Yes, in the other thread dynamic shadows are deemed to be a core feature, so if this is accepted and released as a DLC, we'd be there.

That wasn't going to be a DLC .. Preben would have done the work seperatly yes but it would have been integrated into the core of GG when ready .. It was never going to be a DLC..
Unless im misreading you .

It is based on Preben's question.

Is the dynamic light overhaul dead in the water now??? I have read all the posts and I am confused, not been here for a while so I'm playing catch up.

Apologies I see what you mean now

Afraid so yes for now .. Back on the to do list ..

ah no, I guess major bug fixes 1st then.

Just to clarify, because the other thread was magically closed before only half of the participants had the chance to react:

- I was offering to pay for that fix / enhancement (dynamic shadows) alone
- Noone was accusing the freelancers of anything and all "more intense" questions were aimed at TGC, not at Preben or someone
- Preben sadly taking himself out of the quesion doesn`t take away TGCs responsibilities

Let me re-iterate: I am still willing to fill the pot for that alone, the only thing I want to know is roughly how many weeks or months it will take. No one would be caught in between anything, and everyone trusts the freelancers.

Frankly, it looks very much to me that Preben was pushed into withdrawing the offer and someone had a very convenient excuse to close a red thread with questions asked obviously no one wants to answer. (The 6 months of bug fixing are still like the elephant in the room here)

So, once again, unless this got missed:

@Preben:
I am still willing to fill the pot for the dynamic shadows alone, or to pay you directly.
The only thing I want to know is roughly how many weeks or months it will take.
And if you say, the price tag was only if all community contributed and not only one member, than fine...
...let`s negotiate how much and how long it will take.

Sounds great Ertlov, thanks for jumping in synchromesh also said he would help so thank for trying to push it forward guys

Dave

Even better, then it`s more community than lone ranger.

I don't want this thread closed, i rather have a good discussion!

I do not see TGC relying on donations for the development of its product.
Donation is the wrong word here, to my knowledge it was set up as a means for the community to fund freelancers who are willing to implement a requested feature for a specified amount of money.

Totally voluntary, so where lies the problem?

Probably in the wording, 'Donate to GameGuru Development' should have been 'funding for the implementation of additional requested functions by freelancers' whereby the freelancers can say for which price they are willing to do the work.
This was done to speed up the implementation of additional functions which are requested by the community.

So the discussion about 'having to support development' was and is misplaced in my view!

That said, i wonder if we can say that the funding board is a success, in my view it isn't.

But if DLC can be created by freelancers i think it is a more viable option because it generates money for them through sales, hence no funding up front is required, just the notion that it is something which will be a great addition to GG and hence many will buy it.
Dynamic lights and shadows is such an addition in my view, GG was never intended as an AAA engine, it has been sold as an easy gamemaker, game making for everyone, that is highly possible with GG, also without having dynamic lights and shadows, having a good idea is more important for game making.
Protascope is such an example, nice clean and a lot of fun to play through these levels.
Also other games were a lot of fun to play through while dynamic lights and shadows are absent.

What i deem a core feature is having the ability to group/merge entities in order to improve performance.

Same here, same here!

But putting a core feature which is actually a major alteration to the code into a DLC is something that would lead some horrible user & edge cases, as you would have to maintain at least 2 different branches and codebases for ongoing app development - one for people with DLC, one for people without. S
From a tech and development point of view, that would generate a huge amount of extra work (and therefore costs)

And I can already hear the protest (understandable protests, to be fair) of people who pledged at really high levels back then (before the whole "easy game maker" rebranding happened) and would now be asked to purchase a DLC.



You might not have been around back then, but actually to those of us who threw in the first cash into the pot, it was sold as a professional tool. Not AAA, but definitely something you can roll out a commercial 3D game with. Lots of mouth-watering videos from back then can still be found.

As said, happy to throw some more money in here, just need some rough corner-posts.

Such a kind gesture from both Ertlov and Synchromesh, and once it is done, GG could actually announce.

NOW WITH ADVANCED DYNAMIC LIGHTS WITH REALTIME SHADOWING. thus enticing new users.

I think that would indeed sound nice, PR wise.

Just to clarify ..


I was hoping this would be a community effort and would happily have paid the balance if a reasonable effort was made by the community and still would if the chance ever comes up again.

Preben was quite clear he could not give any ETA.s or even start dates and as he stated below which is the reason he withdrew in his own words.


No problems with the discussion unless it gets out of hand ( as with any thread ) and if by any chance a solution does come out of it then it will be a worthwhile.

As it stands we have a semi-functional engine lacking features we really ought to have several years ago. Selling core functionality as DLC, in any case but especially ours where so many members of this community, me included, have pledged and spent a pretty penny on software that was envisioned rather differently from what we got now, would have overwhelmingly negative feedback. At least that is what I predict.

Now we already have Ertlov and Synchromesh generously chipping in, despite myself being alienated by the concept of the community paying for core features, this is certainly a sure fire way to get the ball rolling. If Preben is still up for some coding and can do it.

As has been said before, GG uses a forward rendering path rather than a deferred one and there must be a reason good lighting has been so illusive all these years. Then again, we had a relatively decent static lightmapper in the X9 version so something can be done.

Now anyone reading this who is new to making games and wonders what all the fuzz is about with this lighting topic, here is my usual picture that shows modern game rendering with and without lighting.



-Wolf

That is correct, i wasn't around then but i'm somewhat aware of it because it comes up now and then.
I've seen some early footage of shadows and parallax (videos which Teabone posted) and on Lee's channel the soldier without a hidden face and neck, walking around and it looked fantastic.
Also the screenshots from thescenecommander are fantastic.
I was also amazed at some tutorial maps, in particular Shimmer with the lightrays through the trees and a beautiful environment.
It looks different now in DX11 but this could be due to settings.

Just to quickly pitch in before I get back to work, I am not in favor of a DLC to add core functionality. All our DLC are entirely optional! I still get slammed on Steam (and here) for 'charging for assets', despite the fact there are 3GB of assets included with the core product. You can imagine the outcry if I deliberately hid core features behind a paywall, I can practically hear the pitchforks being sharpened!

We have had the discussion that the core product price should be increased, which would naturally pay for more direct development (providing the unit sales don't drop), and I would be curious what new price you would consider 'worth it' (I still get reviews on Steam stating $20 is too much for GameGuru - go figure!).

With the Donations System in danger of a rename, there is perhaps a need for some kind of option where individuals can fund improvements they personally want to see, but given the sting TGC has just received over the ethics of the current donations system I am very reluctant to get involved in another scheme to administrate this. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone contacting Preben or other developers directly, and arrange their own freelance project to implement the features they wanted to see. There would be no pressure from TGC to have those changes applied to the master branch, as we would not have been involved in the funding of that work. It is worth noting that development is expensive, and I have seen rates ranging from $60 per hour, £150 per day or fixed price projects in the thousands.

I would also like to hear feedback on what we should rename the Donations System to, as I think there is a point here that 'donation' is often linked to charities and the like, not a for-profit business. I also want to avoid 'crowd-funding' as that implies its funding at the earliest stages. I also want some thoughts on whether we remove the Bug Fixing pot, as this should really be the responsibility of the internal team, and asking the community to pay for fixes could be interpretted as a little cheeky all the way through to scandalous

Well nothing in the Bug Fixing pot so its a good time to remove it.
Never really gave it a thought on that but ye i can see what you mean when you put it that way.
Probably best removed to avoid the situation.

How about " Community Funding " rather than donations ?

There is no simple quick fix to the 'Donation' system, the only thing I can think of is change it to 'Freelancers for Hire' and create a sub forum to allow freelancers to post quotes for 'Custom Work' leave the administration to the freelancer, there are plenty of 'payment' services out there the freelancer could set up.

the easiest option would be for them to have a paypal account the issue here is if the target is not reached how do pledgers get their money back?
I don't think a 'kickstarter' type of thing would be good here, as far as Preben is concerned if he had a paypal button on his website I would donate to him no problem, he has been the Champion of the community for a long time and deserves donations just for that, now if he turned around and says "if my donation pot reaches £500 I will put shadows into GameGuru" then that is a different matter

He kind of does, when he was doing shader work a while he put an option on the page where he uploaded his shaders for if you wanted to give him something back for his work, i'm not sure if it's still there though.

Preben removed his offer and I don't blame him after that thread. Seriously it moved from a simple discussion to a poisonous debate in no time.

As for this sort of thing being DLC? I entirely agree with Lee. Core functionality should be part of the main product. DLC should pretty much remain as media in the main.

Price of GG? I thought it should have been about $30 at cheapest when released. As for people saying that $20 is too expensive, ignore them, there will always be a few. In fact I reckon the cheaper you go, the more of those types of comments you will get! Cheap can sometimes attract cheapskate... Although not sure how a price hike will affect sales now it's been out for years. Hopefully it will slide by and most people won't even know.

0 donations and make apps 100% compatibles with GG such Caracter creator, FBX importer, nice standalone maker, caracter importer, and so on, and sell them, I'm sure many people pay to get some of those apps, myself included.
Then people get a professional app 100€ % compatible with GG, with updates and so on.
¿What do you think about?

And about the shadows, Prebem may set some system like before with the fx files.
As aside note, someone know something about those shaders? they actually working in last build?

Thanks for this lines, basically picking up a lot of what I had re-iterated through several threads now.



Tried to do so, waiting for an answer.



True that, but that applies already to all private builds done from the repo with custom changes. Just take note that in some legislations whoever commissions that work and gets a new "improved product" out of it might get some local copyright over the "improved product" as a whole. I mean, since the sourcecode is out in the public with the intention to be improved, I doubt that`s a problem for you guys, mentioned here just to be sure you are aware.



Easily. But sometimes necessary. Also, Steam SDK integration with FPI hooks for Steam SDK calls didn`t appear magically in FPSC, I had to commission that back then, too.

I remember last year someone said 2019 would be a great year for GG with many new things coming... well...
Maybe end of the year all bugs are fixed, lol.... but I wouldn't expect much more.
Let's see what will happen with GG and the new toy, AGK-S.

I saw nothing in that thread that could be mistaken for a 'Poisonous Debate', what I did see though were questions only TGC or Preben himself could answer being responded to by users who simply wouldn't know the answers. If you actually read it you will find that the tone was changed and it all turned farcical when someone decides to respond with inappropriate playground toilet humour in response to another members serious questions.

What also seems to be missed is those questions were being asked by those who wished to donate, one of them even willing to donate the full amount which would have increased that pot in a big way, they were entitled to reassurances before going ahead not put down by anyone who I reckon wouldn't have any intention of donating themselves..maybe some don't get it but some of those questions could affect TGC's business if they do things the wrong way. But feel free to chime in even if you don't know whats being spoken about.

If thats how it's gotten around here on these forums I reckon I will just remove myself completely, I was still following things around here and quite interested in seeing how TGC would answer those questions. Funny how in this thread Lee seems to agree with a lot of those points raised and now those who 'debated' in the other thread are suddenly on board too.

I hope you guys get what you want, just remember someone has to ask the hard questions and if they are more knowledgeable in business and willing to part with cash for your benefit then maybe you should take a back seat and let them get on with it. Debate is healthy so long as it doesn't descend into stupidity.

THIS. And it was never meant to be hostile in any way. The red questions asked by me here were strictly towards Lee and I can`t see anything poisonous in them.

In which universe is asking for "Are we still in the 6months bugfixing track (Yes / No)" not reasonable?

The yellow ones were mixed towards Preben / TGC, but I never asked for a specific ETA, just a rough number of weeks or months or whatever is needed.
And, as re-iterated in my still valid offer, I was more than keen to discuss both timeline AND budget.

I still am, by the way.

I never once said i wouldn't put any money towards the dynamic shadows feature. Actually if anything, it would probably be my biggest contribution ever towards this engine; larger than my gold pledge. I just wanted to know what the deadline for the donation (500) tally was. Cause if not met we were looking at what seemed to be a start date of a year from now?

Some people have marketers and publishers behind their GG game projects here, so some of the questions raised were for a logical reason and were not in any way intended pressure. Just some legalities and expectation with some room for experimentation and potential failure (it can happen). Nothing fun about working on something as difficult as this with less than industry pay with a heavy expectation behind it and a seemingly sour environment driving it. This is understood and i don't think the thread was pressure just a nudge for understanding before large sums from few individuals were pumped in to quickly complete the 500. But anyways I'll leave that topic as its probably dead and buried by now.

if TGC is ever to actually do a "feature" DLC, which I know we are saying right now would never happen, I can actually see that being rediscussed in the future for the VR update or maybe even multiplayer. Considering the value those two would bring to the GG brand once those are out. Despite there being early iterations of each feature early on. Both markets (VR & MP) are huge, there is no mistaking that. They wouldn't be considered "updates" either of which was promised as being lifetime free. Which is a statement that still stands as even when the name was changed from Reloaded to Game Guru, the product tile was changed on that statement as well so it still remains.

In any case, I feel I'm always starting trouble with what I feel are logical questions. So I'm going to just dip back into the darkness for a while. Let you all have your fun and carrying on doing what you do on the forums.

Let's open up the discussion more.

It was obvious that these questions eventually would be asked.
A pot for;

-bugs from issues tracker
-asset fixing
-enhancements from issues tracker
-A.I improvements
-Performance optimizations
-physics improvements

How are the above listed items not part of ongoing core development?
It is vague and not exactly an invitation for freelancers to pick a job, there simply is no real job to pick.

What should have been on that list i think are wanted functions such as the folowing examples.
-adding dynamic lights and shadows
-multiplayer implementation
-new character creator
-physics engine overhaul
-A good manual which covers every aspect of GG
-day and night cycles
-group/merge/copy entities
-terrain painting system without banding
-parallax mapping

But then there still won't be an incentive for freelancers to chim in because i very much doubt that any pot will reach the required ammount of money which is required for such a job.
Hence, it is mostly the community members who are contributing and to be honest, it really should be an investment from TGC itself.
It is after all indeed a commercial product which is being sold by TGC.

That obviously requires the needed money out of sales to be reinvested in GG which won't be sufficient if it is sold for only a few euro's.
But to give my view on the value of GG, the negativity should not have been a surprice since there were a lot of problems, hence, people were talking about the price being to high, was in my view justified.
This has of course changed quite a bit over the last two years, i would say that certainly with the coming multiplayer the value should at least be around €30 if also there is the possibility to group/merge/copy entities which will improve performance substantially like Preben has shown with his tool.
Thanks to the community it has evolved so much and the value raised, there is so much more we can do now in GG thanks to all the contributors.

Why not have a section on Github where GG owners can request specific additions to GG for their game creation purpose and where freelancers who of course also own GG can take up such a task if ask and bid are met.

There is a question i have though, if someone downloads GG from Github and compiles it, do they have a free working copy of GG?

Finally some constructive debate. I am always in with funds I totally missed the debate but there rolfy summed it up and I think a few have made the engine less rather than more. But let's hope a solution is created and a way forward is presented and all are happy. I think is private funding with a community all donate and anyone who doesn't will have to wait a few however longs for tgc to adapt. And if preben takes this on and is funded by the community they get the fruits and preben can also sell the system on here via PayPal and for more funds. I'm sure when people see the results they will not be able to wait and buy it creating more funds for preben I think cybernessence should do the same or just sell his work I'm in there too. I hope this is a constructive debate sensible and none flame and let's move forward and get a better engine

If setup as intended only registered users / owners can get access to it.

With all the so called..."ideas"
being bandied about , it's sure to get very complicated very quickly if allowed.

For some of the newer adoptees of Game Guru that maybe paid around $20 or so
the add-on DLC for upgraded capabilities MIGHT work as long as the original promesses
to the early adapters is kept intact.

Many of the newer ones might not be aware of the original official pledgers deal....
here is a quote from Rick Banner -----Rick [developer] 12 Feb, 2015 @ 1:29pm

https://steamcommunity.com/app/266310/discussions/0/611698195152270271/



as long as the last line promise is kept intact...any newer , non original pledgers could have any kind of
new deals either offered or imposed as TGC/Game Guru feels is businesslike and acceptable...BUT
as Lee already said,,,A NUMBER OF TIME....he doesn't see that happening at all...SO , why do so many
feels its a good idea to use circular reasoning and to keep coming back to the same old same old same old
already clearly and concisely and precisely and adequately and totally answered question.

this has only brought on more useless and irritable and endless and fruitless discussions
that have done way more damage to the extraordinary community that we have....
Note----Prebens withdrawal from the SHADOWS work----something he would have willingly and im sure
successfully done quite rapidly--now shot to the wind--again.

Note- how many exceptional , long term members of the community have said..
" ok , thats it , had enough . im ouuta here..."
because of all this redundant input from so many who keep regurgitating the ( MOSTLY) same old
already answered questions or already (MOSTLY) rejected ideas.

Why dont we let Lee run his company without all the busybody and philosophical input that so far
seems to be causing way more harm than good..

No game community that I have ever been a part of has had such amazing and cooperative
members as this one..helpful , kind , knowledgeable and so patient....lets keep at it...dont give up....

please.......

UNIRD12B

I bought GameGuru a couple of months ago and I’ve been trying to figure out what’s going on with the development of this app.

From looking at the TGC company structure it seems it’s just one guy developing it with help from the community. There’s also a tiny amount of money available to pay freelancers to add more advanced features contributed by users.

Surely it would be better for the company to raise $100-200K (not hard in the UK for a project like this) to get the app properly developed and finished?

The focus for TGC seems to be on AGK which as far as I can see has far less commercial potential than GG. I’m not sure why you’d learn to code in that app when you can invest the time in Unity?

From looking at the market surely what everybody’s looking for is a game creator that does away with the need to code? Why not invest in developing the UI so there’s less need to use LUA scripting?

I think there’s huge potential in GG but developing it in this way risks it being overtaken by another app or alienating users who want to get their games made.

Regarding pricing, I think it’s very undervalued. People will still complain even if you’re giving it away for nothing. Some of the negativity on Steam seems to be from people who got it free and then got annoyed because they couldn’t make their own version of COD in an afternoon.

I bought GG with several add on packs for about $100 only to see pretty much the same package selling for $5 a month or so later. I don’t mind this as I think it’s important to support developers financially but it doesn’t encourage people to buy it at full price.

I only see the logic in selling this app cheaply/giving it away if the developer is making more money from the asset store from the large user base, but that doesn’t seem to be happening here.

It should be selling for $30+ at least. That way only people more invested in finding out what it can do will buy it and less negative feedback will follow. It would make sense to have a ‘Pro’ version under a different name with more features and better performance that could be sold for $100+. Again, this is a very small amount of money for anybody serious about making their own game, even on a hobby basis. Surely doing that will cover the initial investment costs?

It seems you’ve got a very active, inventive community here and I think the items on the asset store are great. Kudos to the guy for putting all this together but it seems way too much work for one person when there’s a ticking clock.

There are obviously also many people like me who paid 140 for a package whith only 1 product key, so to see those numbers is hardly a reason for a privelige to early backers and i've bought two packages back then.
No problem, my own choice to do so.

There should definitally not be a division between early backers and other members who bought GG or a whole package on a later date.

Wow.just wow! And you throw this thread off topic whereas those you accuse of regurgitating the 'same old' have said absolutely nothing so far about it. Just to correct your assumption...yes you are right many long term members are gone...those are the ones who just silently left without a need for one of those 'threatening to leave/hey I'm back threads' so I don't know where your getting your information from.
Why ? Here's the truth... they left because of the slow development on GameGuru and the absence of the Developer for six months with a total lack of transparency on his return. A good few left because they were told to (by the dev himself) go try Unity or Unreal and come back in six months to see what been done.
I personally know at least a dozen of those 'old timers' who are happy as Larry working away in those engines and have no intention of coming back.
Not a single one of those people left for the reasons you state. Contrary to your assertion they were the very people regurgitating the 'same old' and they eventually got tired of getting no real answers. Those still around and sticking it will follow without a doubt if it continues so maybe you will see a forum membership that suits you eventually.
I hope this puts the whole 'blame the users' thing where it belongs and we get no more of it going on.

As for getting back on topic and at same time addressing another of your 'blame laying' assertions'

If Preben had been allowed to respond himself to the question of an ETA without it becoming farcical in 'the other' thread then it would have been mulled over by those who asked for an ETA, his response was fine right up to the point he decided to throw in the towel. I know for fact that pot would have went up to around a grand and if he would have been willing to discuss it might have been seen there was a user willing to throw a lot more cash at him. Do we think he might have been willing to maybe give an ETA had that pot reached 2 or even 3 thousand? There are people on this forum who could do that you know and several who would be happy throw in at least 3 figures just to get this and also give Preben a proper boost....but of course its those users to blame for everything going tits up....right?

Mods...if anyone else throws this thread off topic....do your job. Then we wont have anymore argumentative threads being locked for no good reason.

Please no features locked behind a pay-wall; it will cause too many arguments about what constitutes a "core feature" and what is a "optional function". We have enough of that already!


Ideally, yes. That's the USP of Game Guru; if I had the time and the inclination to learn to code properly, I'd have downloaded Unity by now. But I have neither of those things, which is why I'm happy to go for an engine that isn't free but is easier to prototype stuff in.

I like extremely tenuous food-related analogies, so here's another one...

FPSC: Reloaded was billed a nice, shiny pizza oven to all its backers; "donate some money, and we'll build a product capable of making nice pizzas". Somewhere along the line, someone in the community must have said, 'gee, I wish I could boil an egg in this pizza oven'. Someone else immediately replied saying they wanted to use a pizza oven to make risotto. Rather than concentrating on making an oven, TGC got out their hammer, rebranded the whole thing into a cooker, and has spent years bolting on grills, hobs, a sandwich maker, and - for some reason - a Corby trouser press. Now it doesn't even make pizzas that well, the toppings always fall off or get burnt. And people won't pay market value for a product that doesn't perform its core job well, so the cooker is being sold cheap. The original promise of a pizza oven has never been fully fulfilled, meanwhile the development of the cooker has been opened up to anyone who can wield a hammer.

In my opinion, the only way forward is to strip things right back; existing or partially-implemented core functionalities need to be delivered in their entirety, bug-free (no small task, I know). At the forefront should always be ease-of-use. That is literally the only reason to buy Game Guru over downloading Unity or Unreal for free; it's meant to be easier. Every feature should be accessible, toggleable, and editable in the editor, and have a nice GUI to wrap it all up in. Game Guru now has several beautiful but ultimately incomprehensible new features that are totally inaccessible to 95% of Game Guru's target audience.

Particles; beautiful, powerful, but totally confusing to a novice starting out.
AI improvements; all hidden behind single-serving LUA scripts rather being accessible in-editor.
Custom menu art; get ready to spend a lot of time in Windows Explorer, Photoshop, and Style Guru.
Custom fonts; I hope you know how to make spritesheets.
Driveable vehicles; only if everything is named and placed very precisely.
Cubemaps; you like Photoshop, right?

When the Game Guru Pizza Oven 2000 can deliver a well-cooked pizza every time, regardless of topping, only then should we start seeing if we can get it to boil an egg.

AE

Wow , just wow ? Read in full context please..
@Rolfy..
Subject in question...

Subject of my chat here ....



I apologize for the multisyllabic usage..I know It can be confusing for some....my bad I guess. (OMG...it's a Joke...)really guys...

Unird12b

Ps. Omg @AE...well done....good one

Now I'm hungry toooo

Going around in circles again guys (dog chasing it’s own tail comes to mind )

Dave

@Granada

Totally agreed....but even more like a dog biting it's own tail and hurting it. ....in the end ( pun intended )

Unird12b

DLC for features?
Maybe one or two like Character Creator, but I'm not sure how easy other
things could be separated from the engine?

How bout start fresh with that Pizza Oven, and plan to make it the Ferrari
of Pizza Ovens?!
Does nobody really like the idea of different tiers of GG?
I mean probably just one other advanced version -- or something like GG Studio
or Pro. Other Stream products offer several versions of their product that has
been enhanced over the years, and stubbed off into "models" -- right word?
That would mean that GG as it is, or soon is to be with bug fixes would remain
as the standard, while the advanced features where enacted into an advanced
product with a higher price range-- more customer choices...?

If this was to happen (just a thought experiment), as the new and greatly improved
GG evolved, packets of improvements could happen, and we get updates regularly,
price rising accordingly... seeing as I'd hate to predict how long all these features
everyone seems to want would take to implement as a whole complete package?

Though there are "features" that I would certainly like to see come to GG, I don't
demand anything from the developers, just throwing out ideas, and we so hope
that something is found that benefits everyone equally=== haha, possible? ^^

I had said this a long time ago. Yup, I ran it up the flag-pole but nobody saluted.

Hmmmm? I wonder why I am craving a pizza right now?

I think already it's all said.

„How bout start fresh with that Pizza Oven, and plan to make it the Ferrari
of Pizza Ovens?!“

Deja vu...
Back to the year 2013/2014 and then wait another 5 years....
Better use one of the available Ferrari’s and install GG on top of the engine...

I still like the idea, GG „easy to use interface“ and under the hood Unity or Unreal.

We disagree there. It turned from a simple question, to a debate over the ethics of donations, leading to what I saw as a lot of pressure to give ETA's and assurances. Arguing over semantics and names. While, at the same time saying how little Preben was being paid for such a job. Perhaps poisonous was too strong a term. Unfriendly if you prefer. The thread turned a little unfriendly and demanding imo. I can't be the only one to think that. It obviously put Preben off for one.

Let’s just wait and see if Ertlov and Preben can come to a agreement, that seems the only way forward at the moment

Dave

Extra pepperoni and hold the olives!

@Ertlov Is there any update from preben?