Feature Creep / Logic Chain

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Zigi
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Posted: 29th Dec 2018 12:43 Edited at: 30th Dec 2018 12:53
Hi.

I tried the Doom Snapmap editor only recently and my very first thought was "this is what FPSC Reloaded should have been". The Snapmap editor in Doom is pretty awesome we can do, not only maps but we can easily create our own custom gameplay and missions with Logic Chains without any coding. GameGuru being the ONLY 3D FPS game engine out there currently in development targeting people don't know how to code or don't want to code, in my opinion something similar to Logic Chains could fit really well in to GameGuru.

So what this Logic Chain is all about?
It is about to make logical connections between entities and trigger events and respond to them in our game by connecting objects with a "chain" and sending signals between them right in the editor in the actual game scene without using any code.

Here is a nice video tutorial demonstrating the basic concept:


What I do like about it the most is that, we can do everything visually in the editor and the chain show you the direction of the logic flow so you can immediately see how everything is setup without need to open-close property panels and read any kind of script. You can clearly see what is triggered by what in what order. It's all right there in the level editor.
Also it is feel natural to use in the editor, Just click on an entity, select an event to trigger, for example if we click a console we can choose an event "OnUse" if we click on a pickup we can choose an event "OnPickup" in case we click a barrel we can choose an event "OnExplode" as a trigger point and then we can drag a chain to an other entity in our level and choose something to happen when the selected event is triggered. For example in case we drag the chain to a door we can choose to "Unlock" "Lock" "Open" "Close" the door, in case of a barrel we can choose "Explode" the barrel, in case of Light we can change properties of the light such as color, type, turn on and off and in case an AI we can choose to "SetActive" and after when an AI "OnActive" we can drag a chain from the AI to a path to follow it for example. Just feels natural and easy to follow in my opinion.

By clicking in the air we can add more objects which has additional properties and events we can use like an ObjectSpawners which we can use to spawn a specific or a random object if an event is triggered or trigger an event if an object is spawned. There is many different type of objects like you can see in the video.
We can also click the chain itself to get even more options to choose from that we can insert to make our chain even more complex and advanced.

We can do a lot with Logic Chains, I recommend to take a look at the above video and then go and get Doom to try it for your self. People create all sort of games with this, not only FPS to shoot monsters in the corridors but puzzle games, memory games, tower defence games and survival games where you need to collect items to build staff.

In my opinion, Bethesda nailed it pretty well how visual scripting and game logic can be done in a 3D game engine without coding.

What do you guys think?
Can we push this to be on the top of the roadmap and convince Lee to make this the priority for 2019 regarding new feature?
Let stick together guys, we need this! People don't know how to code in Lua and don't even want to code in Lua, need this!

It is a must have for GameGuru in my opinion.
Snapmap with Logic Chain reminded me how cool is that when you don't need to worry about variables, arrays, loops, statements and coding in general just go and do it without even thinking about coding and the only thing you need to focus on is the actual gameplay. You can just go and build staff but as I mentioned not only FPS, people make all sort of games with this system.
This is what I would like to experience with GameGuru and most people I believe who come to GameGuru for making games without coding.

Currently GameGuru seems to go in to the direction to become a general purpose engine with scripting. It would be cool but let's be honest, there are plenty of general purpose engines with scripting many free ones and many that is developed by a studio with 50+ and 100+ employees. I don't believe GameGuru can even compete and be successful on this market.
But there is not many 3D engines out there that truly do not require coding. GameGuru is currently the ONLY one I can think of and I think this is the direction GameGuru should be focusing on to let us do more without coding. At the moment when it comes to make a game without coding GameGuru is very limited even for an FPS game even compared to FPSC Classic, many of the old FPSC properties just doesn't even work in GameGuru like switches, keys and doors for example.
With something similar to Logic Chain it could be done in a really flexible way and as I mentioned, personally I did find it "natural" the way we connect things together with chains to trigger events in our game and it was also really refreshing and fun to me. Just reminded me when I was start using FPSC.

We could do a lot in GameGuru with something similar to Logic Chains without coding.
It would be so awesome!

As a GameGuru addition, each event we can choose in the chain could be coded in Lua as an advanced option, people could go and change anything about it or even add their own custom events to the chain. But it is just an idea, if it would be coded in C++ that can not be changed without opening the source of GG, I could live with that as long we have just as many events to choose from like in Snapmap and it would be constantly growing.
We could also buy more Logic Chain Commands in DLC's or make this entire system a DLC if Lee would prefer to do it that way. But this is just an idea for how to make GG it own, if it would be implemented just like in Snapmap that would be fine too.

Or another way of funding the possible cost of implementing this, how about add Logic Chain to the donation page so people could choose to fund development specifically of the Logic Chain? This way, don't need to worry about make it a DLC, let us fund the development and make it a priority for 2019!
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Zigi
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Posted: 31st Dec 2018 12:04
Any thoughts guys?
Unfortunately Lee doesn't have the luxury to say cool let do this without the approval of the community.
Let's share some thoughts here.

I think Logic Chain could benefit GameGuru big time among people getting started with game development and GameGuru is their first stop. But even among people with experience. I know how to code, I've been using engines like Unity, Leadwerks, Xenko, UrhoSharp, AGK but I'm not the kind of person who prefer and love coding and I could really enjoy a no coding experience this is why I'm back in to GameGuru but Logic Chain in Snapmap really blow my mind and I DO enjoy it a lot.
As I mentioned above, the best thing about it is that it feels natural. I want the console open the door, fine I go to the console in the editor choose "OnUse" and then I go to the door and choose "Open" and see an actual chain showing me the console is interacting with the door I just selected. No abstract thinking required, everything is right there in the editor in 3D.

Also, I truly believe GameGuru should be focusing on to let us do more without coding. The solution like the Logic Chain can be still powered by Lua so people do want to code would be not let down, but either with or without the possibility to script it in Lua I think there should be a solution in GameGuru for no coders like the Logic Chain.

What about you?
Would you care to have Logic Chains in GameGuru?
Or would you prefer something more traditional, flat on it own sheet separated from the level editor?
Or do you prefer coding and you want to see GameGuru (continue) becoming a general purpose engine like Unity and others?
In case you do care for the Logic Chain, would you consider to donate a small amount to fund the development?

I think this is the questions Lee would like to get answered before make the decision to implement anything like this or not.
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Belidos
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Posted: 31st Dec 2018 14:29 Edited at: 31st Dec 2018 14:29
This part of the forum isn't really used any more, since Lee started using GitHub, most feature requests are posted on there where more of the official and community developers can see it.

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Zigi
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Posted: 31st Dec 2018 15:18 Edited at: 31st Dec 2018 15:40
What I'm hoping for is to convince Lee to work on this officially in 2019 rather than throw it out there and see if someone care to implement it.
Actually it would be for the community to discuss in the first place since Lee normally do what the community is asking for but due to low budget, he need to choose wisely where he spend the resources. In 2018 it was PBR, I'm really would like to see Logic Chain to be in focus for 2019. But all depends on the opinion of the community.

Normally they have a meeting at TGC and set out the roadmap in January right? Normally they also do a survey around that time. Would be nice if we would have this on the table by then.

In case this part of the forum is not used, would be nice if a mod would move this in to the general topic to catch more eye balls.
If lot of people would support the idea I'm sure it would catch the attention of Lee
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Belidos
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Posted: 31st Dec 2018 15:56
You won't, not posting it here, as i said this section of the forums is not used any more, it's unlikely that Lee even looks here. your best bet is to either post it on GitHub as an enhancement request, or email Lee.

As to your hope to get Lee to work on it in 2019, i don't want to put you off, but it is very very unlikely it will happen, he's already been asked for multiple variations of this and it's always been turned down, it's a massive task that would probably take the whole year by itself, and there are way more important things that need doing right now.

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Zigi
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Posted: 31st Dec 2018 16:18
There always be more important things, improvements to make to existing features and bugs to fix. But I think we should have at least 1 new significant feature each year. At least 1
If the development settle down to be bug fixes and maintenance only, that pretty much means GG is dead. It is almost already the case.
Lee turned down the ideas before because of low budget and this is why I also proposing to add it to the donation page so people can choose to fund the development of this instead of "improvements" and "bug fixes" in general.

I posted on Steam too with a link to this topic.
If this part of the forum is really dead I hope a mod will find a way here and move the topic if not, I'll post in general with a link here

Will see, if it doesn't make it on to the to do list of Lee, well, not the end of the world only trying.
Most people want more freedom, Unity without coding, Unreal for 10 bucks. Logic Chain could be one way to go about that....
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Belidos
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Posted: 31st Dec 2018 16:32 Edited at: 31st Dec 2018 16:33
I agree, it would be a great feature to have, but it's just not as important as other stuff.

As I've said, what you need to do, send Lee an email, and post it on GitHub, that's the best way to get it the attention it needs.

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Zigi
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2019 12:27
Quote: "As I've said, what you need to do, send Lee an email, and post it on GitHub"

Many of my ideas have been turned down by Lee for one reason or an other or simply ignored them so I don't expect Lee to care unless the community care. So I'm not only trying to get the attention of Lee but also the community. If the community ignore it or disagree so Lee. If the community agree and stand behind the idea, maybe Lee put it on a sticker somewhere in the office at least and just before he go to the TGC meeting to plan the roadmap for 2019 and the survey he may see the sticker and say "oh yeah let take this too and see what the team has to say about it..."
I know there are also "contributors" but due to the fact it would be a huge task, it needs to be on the table at TGC office or never going to happen but the only way to get there is through the community which is right here on this forum.
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Belidos
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2019 12:45
Regardless. The best place for this really is on GitHub, that is where it will be seen by the community, and specifically the portion of the community that matters. You're just shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to do so.

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Zigi
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2019 13:11 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2019 13:19
Quote: "You're just shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to do so."

If I would go to GitHub now, contributors would only state the fact what a huge task it is and how much of their time would go in to it so they won't do it for free.
Coders definitely don't need this features so they would not do it for fun and for free only to help Lee. People contribute for free with staff they are interested to have and implement for them self's anyway and don't mind sharing. This is how contribution and GitHub works.

And Lee would either ignore it or say No because he do what the community vote for due to slim budget. Or simply he disagree he don't think it is the direction to go. Any case it would be either No or silence. But even if he would agree the first thing he would ask, is the community want this better than X or Y?

I am not looking for Lee's opinion right now or the contributors. What I'm seeking here is the opinion of the users, people using GG and never in their life touched C++ or even Lua. If they support this, they want this, only then maybe Lee would throw this up and ask contributors, investors about doing it and consider using some of the budget his got for 2019.
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