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TrueFin
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 08:46 Edited at: 24th Jan 2018 08:48
Hi!

Im planning to publishing a game in Early Access soon, and I have question about that.

Plan is that EA version have 10 levels, it is open world game. On EA version player can only play these 10 levels.
Final version have more than 50 levels.

Question is about save and load.
On Early Access I have that idea that players can save their game and for example player who has reached level 10 wont face any problem when I add new levels to the game. There will be no updates to these first 10 levels.

Is player able to load he's/she's saved game after my update? (update type: add new levels)
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Belidos
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 10:46 Edited at: 24th Jan 2018 13:16
As far as i know you should be fine.

But 50 levels? that's a bit ambitious, considering GameGuru has a standalone issue where it's not clearing some things from the memory each time a new level is loaded, so after a few (number of levels determined by how much you cram into them) levels it crashes.

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DVader
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 11:30
Yeah 50 levels is gonna be an issue and really, why would you even want 50 levels? Don't take quantity for quality.
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 11:39 Edited at: 24th Jan 2018 11:40
Well, it’s too much maybe.
But, 50 or 10 or even 8, the issue surely needs to be fixed as quick as light.
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Wolf
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 12:36
Care to share more about your project? Alpha Screenshots, maybe a video. I have trouble imagining a working and stable 50 level GG game.



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MooKai
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 15:21
50 levels, wow, that would be really a lot.
I don’t think that I could fill 50 levels with content.
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Bolt Action Gaming
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 16:41
A) you have your work cut out for you.
B) yes, it does work in that fashion. I can verify this functioned in that manner as of a month ago (using public preview).
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Posted: 24th Jan 2018 22:28 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 03:47
Quote: "Plan is that EA version have 10 levels, it is open world game. On EA version player can only play these 10 levels.
Final version have more than 50 levels."


As had been mentioned, Game Guru has issues with memory not clearing from level to level. I can assure you 50 levels will not work presently with this engine. You'd be lucky to get more than 10 or even if that.

More on the top of memory
https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/219044

If your going into Early Access, make sure your testers use the save and load functions to see if they end up on a green screen. perhaps 5 or more levels in. I have played 3 Game Guru created games on Steam that crash and fail to load properly when using the save and load function. due to the memory load maxing out.

Does your game have 50 levels because of interiors? Considering you mentioned it is open world? I've worked on two open world maps and it took months to fill the two maps. How long have you been working on this or is this a pipe-dream?

If that is the case, i would advise not thinking too much into steam (or any vendor or distribution) right now and more about optimization and working within the workable means of this engine. I can assure 50 levels will not work in GG's current state. I'd focus more on your 10 levels. Game Guru maps are currently pretty large as it is... it would help if you show us a bit of what your maps generally look like.

EDIT: ALSO Keep in mind that if you are filling these maps as open world maps they can take as long as 10 to 20 minutes to load sometimes even longer. So if you have 50 levels you are essentially adding over an hour of loading time to your player's patience.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:32
>Belidos
>But 50 levels? that's a bit ambitious, considering GameGuru has a standalone issue where it's not clearing some things from the memory each time a >new level is loaded, so after a few (number of levels determined by how much you cram into them) levels it crashes.

Hmm im not aware that issue. I remember I asked year ago how many levels I can add and I got response that the answer is almost unlimited..

>Dvader
>Yeah 50 levels is gonna be an issue and really, why would you even want 50 levels? Don't take quantity for quality.

Well, if it is an open world game..

>Wolf
>Care to share more about your project? Alpha Screenshots, maybe a video. I have trouble imagining a working and stable 50 level GG game.

Sure. Im pretty sure that GG can handle this, since half of the levels are forrest.

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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:34
>Mookai
>50 levels, wow, that would be really a lot.
>I don’t think that I could fill 50 levels with content.

More than half of these levels are forest.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:44
>Teabone
>As had been mentioned, Game Guru has issues with memory not clearing from level to level. I can assure you 50 levels will not work presently with this >engine. You'd be lucky to get more than 10 or even if that.

So maximum number is 10 or..?

>Does your game have 50 levels because of interiors? Considering you mentioned it is open world? I've worked on two open world maps and it took >months to fill the two maps. How long have you been working on this or is this a pipe-dream?

There is going to be lots of maps because player have a mission to explore and find a specific "thing". I have worked on this project for months. Currently I have 3 maps ready.

> I'd focus more on your 10 levels. Game Guru maps are currently pretty large as it is... it would help if you show us a bit of what your maps generally >look like.

One moment I post screenshots.

>EDIT: ALSO Keep in mind that if you are filling these maps as open world maps they can take as long as 10 to 20 minutes to load sometimes even longer. >So if you have 50 levels you are essentially adding over an hour of loading time to your player's patience.

Thanks!
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Teabone
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:44 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 04:50
open world games typically have only 1 outdoor map. If you take in to account games like GTA3 and San Andreas they have about 3 maps max. Certainly not 50... unless you are talking about interiors (like Fallout and Skyrim scale). Though even with those games they only have 1 map. Additional maps were added only with DLC. But again no where near 50 not even 5.

Keep in mind that Game Guru doesn't support cell stitching. So all your maps must be loaded again each time they are "entered". If you have your player going back and forth between them you are going to put them through waiting torture lol which will result in guaranteed negative review and rage-quits.

My recommendation is not to focus on 50 separate maps but try to utilize the maps you got and design more within. While the Game Guru maps may seem small try actually walking from one end to another with objects and barriers in between. It really does take a while. The maps may seem small, but when you actually walk around in them you'll see how small they can be if detailed well enough.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:49
Screenshot looks dark, but it is not so dark in a game.

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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:50
Works smoothly atm.

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Teabone
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:52 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 04:57
Those are some really nice looking mountain peaks in the background in your first image.

Second image of the map i dont really see much going on there. I think you'll need more than just trees.

Here is an example of how skyrim is designed:


I'd suggest doing the same and adding more peaks and valleys the player must navigate through and some rocks.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:55
Walley..

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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:59
Gameplay

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Teabone
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 04:59 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 05:08
I think if you go to Foliage > Scenery

there should be some rocks and bolder there. It Might help diversify the map. Do you plan to have enemies scattered throughout the map? If you plan on having so much open space and so many maps, I'm wondering if the player would get ever bored of just walking without encounters?

I think having more hills and valleys will really help your scenes better. An example here from a quick render i did a while back:

has foliage as well as stones to help compliment the scene


Are you avoiding using grass for sake of performance? (not a bad idea)
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 05:08 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 05:20
Thanks for feedback/tips! Yeah those maps are not ready yet. About that concern that the player would get bored, well the game has a unique plot and some suprises on the map which keep player sharp.. There is grass, you can see it on the first screenshot. But for the performance player cannot see far away located grass.

It is not necessary to do a open world game, but I have a feeling that customers wan't open world games nowadays.
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Belidos
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 08:43
Quote: "Hmm im not aware that issue. I remember I asked year ago how many levels I can add and I got response that the answer is almost unlimited.."


It's a well known issue that has been posted about quite a bit recently. In theory you can have as many levels as you want, GameGuru does not put any kind of limit on that. However, in practice GameGuru has a memory issue, where it doesn't clear the memory fully between loading levels, so over time your memory gets filled up more and more, until eventually you have no more memory and it crashed the game. So in reality with levels that have a lot of content you might only be able to run two or three levels before crashing.

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MooKai
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 09:13
So you say 25 forest maps... hmmm I like forest scenes but 25.... could become boring.
Btw. trees need a lot of performance, good tip. Turn off the physics from the trees.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 09:37
Well there is lots of threes placed, do I need to click a three one by one and turn physics off or is there faster way..
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MooKai
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 11:04
The faster way is, do it before place them on the map
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TazMan
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 12:59
I agree with the guys here, I would definitely go for quality over quantity, make it so that each level has several things that the player has to overcome in each level, making each thing more difficult than the last and make it so that each level takes time to finish.

Have a good plot, good characters, and interesting gameplay also make it so that the game player does not know the whole plot all at once, make it so they have to piece it together as they go.

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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 16:15
Best way to make a game is to make small maps filled with quality looking items, like stones trees etc. Ive always hated games that just had huge maps that repeated the same scenery. Not to mention having to run for ages just to find an npc to fight or a town to explore etc. The best way is to go scene by scene.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 22:20 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 22:22
Found a game in Steam which requires/recomments to player have 64 GB ram.. sounds like a memory problem?
Technically I think GG would run open world game if player have a 64 gb ram, as someone mentioned that this memory problem fills computer memory until it crashs..

http://store.steampowered.com/app/679240/DONT_PLAY_THIS_GAMEEXE/

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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 25th Jan 2018 22:31 Edited at: 25th Jan 2018 22:39
Quote: "as someone mentioned that this memory problem fills computer memory until it crashs..
"


Yep. It does, and it will. It's 32 bit and no matter what it will have memory problems. Whether it be memory cleanup or whatever. PBR will and should be expected to demand more memory. 4GB, with the current workaround, likely won't be enough for future demands even with the best memory cleanup. It's not necessarily a game stopper, you just have to make your game around those limitations. Be efficient, make smaller levels, or just wait....
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TrueFin
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 00:09
When will GG fix that memory problem?
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 00:18
Quote: "When will GG fix that memory problem?"


With more people working on it, hopefully soon! 64 bit is the easy way out, but a program should be efficient from inside out. Regardless, it will likely be a while. Hopefully not as long as the DX11 upgrade has been.
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Ertlov
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 00:37
Actually, we are talking about two problems:

1. The BUG which doesn't clear memory on level transition. This is a showstopper for all ambitious projects with more than 4-5 levels and should be fixed asap.

2. The 64bit thingy - it would be desirable to have GameGuru as 64bit application to raise the memory bar from it's current 3.85GB limit. However, as long as you don`t make each level a huge open world with a vast variety of assets, it is entirely possible to design great levels within this limit, with PBR. You should just avoid lightmapping and stick to dynamic lighting.
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lordjulian
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 09:40
Quote: "With more people working on it, hopefully soon! "


Has the development team recently got bigger?
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Belidos
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 11:47
Quote: "Has the development team recently got bigger?"


Have you even been reading the forums?

GameGurus source code is now up on GitHub and we can compile it and make our own edits and additions, which Lee can then look at and approve for addition or leave it as a "fork" so people can mod their install. Basically it means we potentially have an infinite team working on it now.

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Wolf
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 12:01 Edited at: 26th Jan 2018 12:02
Quote: "well the game has a unique plot and some suprises on the map which keep player sharp.."


This is not directly the topic of this discussion but it will desperately need some surprises. From what I see these maps are not only large and empty, there are also no discernable trigger zones or other events that indicate any gameplay related scripts. I have also noticed that you did not even rotate the same tree models that you repeat endlessly.

You are free to do as you choose but I would reconsider putting something as bare bones as this on steam personally. Perhaps polishing this before worrying about steam achievements and trading cards is not the worst idea.



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TrueFin
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 15:23 Edited at: 26th Jan 2018 15:43
Thank you for your comments Wolf, but as I said those maps aren't ready but you ask to see screenshots so there they are. Game have several maps, some of them are ready and some of they aren't. Those 2 maps are example how would forest map look a like. EA won't require all maps to be ready/complete game, so idea is polish these maps the following 6-12 months. The way that I use of the word "soon" was unthinkable.
About those trees, I noticed that when I place the tree, the root part did not appear so I need to move every three a little bit, and while doing that I also going to change the tree position. Also I was testing how much would game slow down when I place those trees and I can confirm that the game engine has been developed a lot and performance is excellent.
So try to understand that those are not ready maps at all and my idea is not show with those screenshots that "look how amazing maps these are"

And now have a new problem, I cant get one of my old maps open. Some kind of error message appears.

Can GG hande 5 maps, if I setup it so that player cant go back to previous maps?

Im currently working in other game which already is in EA and it has made different engine since the game is totally different, so there is still lots of things to learn about GG.
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Belidos
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 16:02
Quote: "Can GG hande 5 maps, if I setup it so that player cant go back to previous maps?"


There's no way of telling, whether it crashes or not depends on how much content is in each level, which parts of it are not unloading from memory, and the end users system. I've seen games that have worked fine with half a dozen or more maps, and i've seen games that crash loading the second level, it's all relative, we can't really give you an exact number of levels that will work without crashing.

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Teabone
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 17:27
When you are placing trees down you can use the instance spray mode by pressing "I" . This will automatically place them in random rotations and slants.
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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 21:10
I honestly don't mean this in antagonistic or hurtful way but you seem to know so little about GG are you sure you're ready for a steam EA? Think you may be over reaching in this engine for now perhaps and may encounter a lot of distressing feedback? Maybe I'm wrong certainly don't want to dampen your enthusiasm

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Posted: 26th Jan 2018 23:25 Edited at: 26th Jan 2018 23:27
Many developer create their storefront months before they release their game. There is also 30-35 days waiting periods before you can even launch your storefront.

If the software is so unstable about adding/using multiple levels at the moment, I don't really understand why there even is that kind of feature.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 27th Jan 2018 00:58 Edited at: 27th Jan 2018 00:59
Quote: "If the software is so unstable about adding/using multiple levels at the moment, I don't really understand why there even is that kind of feature."

I can make a very stable game with a few levels but we have " recently " found there are memory issues that need attention ..
Even so ... 50 levels .. I though Half-Life 2 was solid with pretty long lasting content and that only had 12 levels.
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Teabone
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Posted: 27th Jan 2018 02:34 Edited at: 27th Jan 2018 02:36
Quote: "If the software is so unstable about adding/using multiple levels at the moment, I don't really understand why there even is that kind of feature."


While Game Guru itself may be out of Early Access, its still very much in development. Lot of improvements are still needed and that is why TGC is now working even more closely with the community to help iron out the product, so you can make beautiful well optimized games.

The memory issue is something that has only recently been confirmed. As more advanced developers started putting levels together, they are the ones who have encountered the issue. Otherwise simple maps, you could probably get away with a lot without experiencing this issue. But if you plan to have lots of detail and lightmaps and especially 50 levels, you are going to face troubles currently.
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TrueFin
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Posted: 27th Jan 2018 03:09 Edited at: 27th Jan 2018 03:11
It is enough't for me that the game have 1-3 levels in EA. But im sure that some youtube previewer might want more.. I can only say that Early Access is quite flexible, and goal is to add more levels. How many, it depends about how much can gugu engine handle. As the game have an unique plot and marketing strategy, I can't open all plans here but I have send private message to some of you so mods can understand this plan.
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MooKai
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Posted: 27th Jan 2018 13:12
you should first create, optimize, finish your first 10 levels of your game... then think about EA, Steam etc...
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