Product Chat / Terrain Normals - Not Working?

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OldFlak
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Posted: 26th Jun 2017 15:19 Edited at: 26th Jun 2017 15:24
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Hi all

So it has been a while since I messed with the terrain, and today decided to mess around making some textures for the new terrain system.

But it seams that the system is not using the Normals at all.

In the picture below the left corner shows the _N that is used for the paving but as is obvious there is no oomph at all in the paving (or for any other of the textures).



The terrain settings are on high, and don't make any real difference on any other settings either.

So has anyone else noticed the same, or is this is a problem with my system setup, or the way I am making the textures?

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Belidos
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Posted: 26th Jun 2017 15:46
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If i remember right Lee said the new system doesn't use separate Normal maps , it uses the Alpha channel from the texture itself for the normal mapping. Something i really don't like because i haven't a clue how to add normal maps to the alpha channel.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 27th Jun 2017 12:44 Edited at: 27th Jun 2017 12:44
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The terrain uses the Texture_N.dds collection of normal maps for the 16 sub-textures within the palette. If you send me the texture_D and texture_N files that you are using I can indicate if these are the reason you don't see the normals, and also remember to set terrain to HIGHEST and adjust the sliders so that ambiance is not washing out the light-direction effect for the normal mapping to be seen.
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Belidos
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Posted: 27th Jun 2017 13:35
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Quote: "The terrain uses the Texture_N.dds collection of normal maps for the 16 sub-textures within the palette. If you send me the texture_D and texture_N files that you are using I can indicate if these are the reason you don't see the normals, and also remember to set terrain to HIGHEST and adjust the sliders so that ambiance is not washing out the light-direction effect for the normal mapping to be seen."


I could have sworn you said that they use the alpha channel instead of a normal texture now, i remember it quite clearly because i spent hours trying to work out how to do it in Gimp, or is it textures in the EBE i'm thinking of?

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OldFlak
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Posted: 27th Jun 2017 16:25 Edited at: 27th Jun 2017 16:27
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@LeeBamber

Quote: "The terrain uses the Texture_N.dds collection of normal maps for the 16 sub-textures within the palette. If you send me the texture_D and texture_N files that you are using I can indicate if these are the reason you don't see the normals, and also remember to set terrain to HIGHEST and adjust the sliders so that ambiance is not washing out the light-direction effect for the normal mapping to be seen."


Thanks for the response Lee, been a long day here:

What I have been doing is Creating the textures, a PNG for the _D and DDS for the _N
They are in the same folder and named for example : paver_D (png) and Paver_N (dds)
Is this the correct way of doing it?

Anyhow I will send the files to you tomorrow

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Posted: 27th Jun 2017 20:51
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Did you tried increasing specular, via tab tab?

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Posted: 27th Jun 2017 21:48
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Quote: "What I have been doing is Creating the textures, a PNG for the _D and DDS for the _N"

Have you tried to use the same format for both?
Make out of your png a dds and try it again.
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 02:56 Edited at: 28th Jun 2017 03:09
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Use .dds and the specular map goes into the alpha channel. I reckon the extra texture slots required for terrains now takes the existing diffuse and maps these into Atlas (including alpha channel) for the new terrain texture, if there is no spec in your diffuse alpha channel you won't be seeing much effect from the normals either way. If your diffuse has an alpha channel but no features (pure black or white) then your going to get 'flat' or 'shiny plastic'. Since the alpha is going to be present in the diffuse texture Atlas no matter what then for sure you will get one or the other if you don't have the specular map in the right channel.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 10:03
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@reliquia : The Reliquia_TerrainTextures you sent me had no normal map files in there, just _D diffuse variants. As Rolfy says, you also need to fill your alpha channel of the diffuse with data to add some specular to bring out the normal mapping effect. If you can send me the paver_D (png) and Paver_N (dds) you prepared, I can go from there.
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 10:35
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Ah it was the specular being in the alpha i was thinking about!

I don't suppose anyone knows of a video that shows how to edit specular into the alpha using Gimp at all do they? I still haven't worked it out, and i have trouble learning from text.

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granada
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 10:59
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This might help

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsq1hVQQLHM

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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 11:01
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Thanks Dave very informative
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 11:52
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Perfect, exactly what i needed, thanks.

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Posted: 29th Jun 2017 13:17 Edited at: 29th Jun 2017 13:22
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Hi all

Sorry for late reply, it has been pretty hectic at the Art Centre this week, and thanks for all the input.

Got this worked out now I think

The paver problem was a naming mismatch which I just couldn't see for the life of me

I didn't want to mess with any of the tab tab settings for specular etc, since these are intended for the Toonland Collection of assets I have in the store, and everything is supposed to work out of the box for store items.

However messing with specular in the _D is key for good results - thanks for the tips there everyone!

There is definitely a lot more work to do for this kind of media now, at least when making a matching set

This set of textures is for the desert theme already in store, and has 28 textures for the set, so that there is a bit of variety to choose from when making a level.

I guess messing with that many textures just made me blind to the obvious - still not done yet lots of tweaking and testing to go yet.





Reliquia....
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OldFlak
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Posted: 29th Jun 2017 13:46
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Quote: " If you can send me the paver_D (png) and Paver_N (dds) you prepared, I can go from there."


@LeeBamber, files re-sent, got them working but some verification that I have done this correctly would be awesome, thanks.

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Posted: 30th Jun 2017 15:08
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Well that sucks, it was better separate. Your just making things harder Lee...
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2017 22:35
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Which part sucks?
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Teabone
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 04:03 Edited at: 6th Jul 2017 04:04
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This explains why all my maps look completely different now and not of the desirable result. I'll have to poke around with this. When I get the time.
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 04:21 Edited at: 6th Jul 2017 04:22
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Quote: "Well that sucks, it was better separate. Your just making things harder Lee..."


Quote: "Which part sucks?
"
I think he is referring to the specular map being in the diffuse textures alpha channel for terrain which has been that way since the very first release. Nothing has changed it's always been this way.
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OldFlak
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 11:08 Edited at: 6th Jul 2017 11:24
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Hi all

EDIT: removed the negative feedback

While getting the textures to work is not an issue, as Rolfy said it is not new it is the same as before.

However after messing with this for a few days now, I just dislike the new terrain system, in fact I am actually tempted to put a request on the voting board to bring back the old terrain system.

Reliquia....
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 16:34
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why not just shift your votes to Terrain Importer Maker that's already on there, I have been creating my own terrain for weeks now
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OldFlak
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 00:24 Edited at: 7th Jul 2017 00:25
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Yeah, might be an idea GraPhix - will take a look.

The new system is just hard to work with now (not making the media, just using it in engine) The only plus for it all is the variation map, the best maps are those that you don't paint at all, apart from using the first slot for paths.

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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 22:35
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So I'm a bit confused. Why are all my textures completely messed up now? They are overly shining and dont seem to have their original spec maps linked.
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Posted: 8th Jul 2017 00:38 Edited at: 8th Jul 2017 01:03
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Hi TeaBone,

You have to paste your specular map into the alpha-channel of the Diffuse.

You can save the _D as a png so it is easier to find (less clicks) when selecting the image in Game Guru, just make sure that the _D and the _N have the same name, and GG will find it.

So:
1) put the specular map in the alpha channel of the _D
2) the alpha channel determines how shiny the image will be in GG (Darker = less shiny)
3) name the _D and _N the same ( eg. sand1_D, sand1_N)
4) the _D can be either .png or .dds (gg makes a mega map from all your images and creates the appropriate .dds file)
5) the _N should be .dds
6) put all files in the same folder

Hope that helps....

Reliquia....
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Posted: 17th Jul 2017 05:27 Edited at: 17th Jul 2017 06:08
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Thanks reliquia. Will do!

EDIT: my terrain still looks too shiny and im getting these weird lines ever since the new terrain texture updates came to Game Guru. What could be the cause? Everything was fine since before that update.

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OldFlak
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Posted: 17th Jul 2017 09:37
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Hi Teabone.

The shine is because the spec needs to be darker - black will have zero shine, but will of course appear transparent (it won't be when GG uses it)

The lines and shadows are the most annoying problem (it just slows down the work flow). I have found sometimes just reselecting a texture for the grid will get rid of it, some times you have to close\open GG again.

More work for this feature is much needed.

Reliquia....
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Posted: 17th Jul 2017 14:43 Edited at: 17th Jul 2017 15:49
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Okay so I created a brand new map with my custom terrains and there is no overly shiny ground and no lines....

Then loaded my map that was having the issues... and its fine now. So if anyone is having the same issues, you have to create a new map and use your custom terrain and paint them on the ground and test the game. Then load your old map that has your custom terrain in it and everything will be back to normal.

Everything looks so much better now and beautiful. Can't wait till multiple grass types are added...



Thank you so much for the hard work on terrain!
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