Hey guys,

I have this huge project in the making but I dont know where to start. The story is there but it is very difficult to transfer into gameguru.
I see the many things I need to do, and I see the potential but it is difficult to do in gameguru. Nothing impossible though..
I wish I had this flury of ideas back when I did hunted1.

I want to make something good but I have literally no motivation at the moment.

You guys are developers too, are you having the same issues?
Do you have any tips on how to get motivated?

How are you developing your games? Story first or levels first?

Let me know! I am looking forward to your comments.

I find myselfe with multiple things on the go.my advice to you would be write down a list and work to it (something I should do myselfe )

Dave

I think everyone has that problem from time to time, especially if, like me, you are doing this as a hobby. With a hobby, there are usually no set deadlines. Almost 4? years into GG/Reloaded and I have literally nothing to show for it aside from several characters made with Fuse/FBX2GG. Anyway, your post made me think of a video I once saw by Blender Guru on YouTube. While I don't follow the advice every day, lol, when I do set aside ten minutes to work on something, it does tend to turn itself into an hour or more: I decided to look that video up again:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39AV16MshrE&t=239s

I have this too... the motivation goes up and down...
At the moment down, because of that AI bug... so, at the moment I'm working on an old 2D game (shmup).
Which gets now a 2017 overhaul.

If the motivation is really down, I do something different a few days. That helps me, then the new ideas normally come.
Don't forget to write down your ideas... I always use notepad for that, easy and fast.

Btw. you're an indie too... so no time pressure That's one of the good things being an indie-weekend-afterwork-warrior.

What I would do is choose an area of game development that I don't know much about, and try and gain some proficiency. Learning new skills, especially if they relate to your project, is always motivating.

Oh I'm glad im not the only one haha Thanks for your thoughts so far!

Personally I get motivated by people moaning about what GG can't do!

haha ;D

That obviously works for you; you MAKE it do whatever it currently can't!

Also only a hobbyist here, and also no stranger to such things.
For me, "level first" without or hardly any story is a very dangerous way to proceed, I don't do this anymore, b/o too many abandoned half-baked "projects" in my path.
A minimum of a story with some rather clearly defined "milestones" and a final goal is a must for me. That does not mean that in the course of a project, the number of sub-goals / milestones cannot double or more. It also means, that a project defined this way may safely lie for a while, and then be taken on again, while without a minimum stucture is usually dead after some pause.

Additiionally, I am equally given to flashes of inspiration (which can make me work almost feverishly on a thing for a while, then bleed out a bit), and to contingency and sound logic within a game alike, so, occasionally, I need some time to make things fall into place. Often, I seek diversion and inspiration alike by experimenting with small throwaway levels pertaining to totally unconnected matters, and the benefits may come in much later, almost unexpectedly.

Great post. Thanks.

Gauntlet thrown down = invitation to ramble on

I've been trying to make games as a hobby for over 25 years. The key word is "trying" to make a game.

Started with a programme called Worldcraft, which I had to buy from the USA (it later became Valve's Hammer, now called Jackhammer on Steam), and had a bit of success making Quake maps, a couple of which actually ended up on multiplayer servers and on a PC gamer cover disk. But that was as far as any "success" went, simple deathmatch levels.

Like many of us here I probably dabbled with unreal, unity etc, and seem to have a large collection of "game makers" and assets of all sorts, from RPG makers to VN editors, shoot em up kits, etc

I once heard a writer describe the writing process as "sitting there looking forany excuse to stop and do something else", and game making is like that.
GameGuru gives us the perfect excuse not to finish anything, we can all use the excuse of waiting for this feature or that feature.

I guess we all have this huge collection of assets that we'll never use, a huge collection of scripts that we'll never use, a load of software programmes and graphics tools that we'll never use.... and the great game that we will never make.

The long and the short of it seems to be the advice I heard from someone else which makes sense:
Spend one week on a project- Make anything. Make one level that works. Make it simple. Call it finished. Give it to some people.
Now you have made your first game, and it only took a week but It's utter rubbish.
Now put that behind you and make a better one, take two weeks on it. Make it twice as good. It's still rubbish, but its better than your first one, and at least you can say you have made a couple of games.
So now I'm going to take my own advice and make a one level game in a week, and it's going to be rubbish. But it'll be the first one I've finished in 25 years.
Anyone else?

Well theres LUA you can learn or Blender if you get to the stage of taking a break or lose motivation for GG.
Either or both will open new doors for GG when you come back to it or handy for other engines ..

Well I'll be among the first to play it, when you decide to upload it !




yeah I am afraid, you're right

i'm not sure aiming to learn a new aspect is the right approach, you may end up getting bogged down with the learning curve or simply frustrated when it doesn't work because you aren't understanding something.

my advice is;
1. plan out the game on paper - doesn't have to be a perfect step by step or anything, just cut it into sections for starters. (i posted about the importance of lists recently but i think they really do help you stay on track)
2. take each section and work out what you need for it, models, scripts, sounds etc.
3. check it is all possible in GG first and you will ideally have all (ok, most of) the media - no point planning the next AAA title if you don't have the tools for it.
i.e. no multiplayer, no third person with weapon swapping (personally i would stay clear of third person in GG all together but it's possible to some extent), not an RTS etc
4. you say you already have a story so this part will help loads, use step 1 to get you started and follow the story as you build the map (so start with the starting location of the story), start small and work your way through at a pace that suits you (don't try to design the entire map at once for example - unless you love terrain design of course), getting smaller areas working tends to give you a much better feel for a game compared to having a large empty map.
p.s. i find it useful to make myself a little to-do list for any small bugs or minor annoyances i find while testing (i'll literally write them down as i'm testing), that way i can ignore them for the time being and keep working at a better pace - otherwise you will find yourself not getting anywhere... though of course these bugs or annoyances will need to be dealt with you can often deal with many at once by saving them up rather than keep going back and forth.

Great post smallg. Thank you.

To do Lists help me very much and I make use of them pretty often. The testing of Hunted 1 bevore Steam release would not have been possible without to-do lists^^

Okay, I wrote this because of Hunted 2. The story is there, and it's deeper than Hunted 1. There are some challenges along with it and I am generally lazy and depressed at this time. It's melting hot in my flat and I dont like the summer that much in general. Winter is my season..

Bottom Line is - I just dont have the energy right now to do it. But this thread really helps me to think a little different about it.

There is a similar topic here.
I think a lot of the advice in there rings true for here too.


Often yes, there are times where I don't do anything creative for weeks but then I get back to it for hours on end.


Make the game you want to make. Not one that is easy to do and not one that is easy to sell. Try to find a genre or type of game that really interests you in making. Keep it small and achievable and make sure to lay out certain "milestones" that you can work towards in little time. Take time off whenever you feel like it. Chat with other developers and never try to aspire to reach AAA standard.


Concept first. Its far more important to have achievable gameplay planned out than a story. Be aware of your limitations whenever you start a project.
I usually write my stories in a way that it has a deep lore but a simple plot. You can't have that many engaging dialogues and cutscenes as a hobbyist so anything too cinematic will likely not work well. Visual storytelling is very doable though.
Learn new things and advance your skills.
Never start with the first level. Its always best to start somewhere in the middle as your first level must really shine and if you start here first, you will later find yourself remaking it several times as you get better while you develop.
Make mistakes. Have Placeholders.
And like I wrote in the other thread: Don't take it too seriously and there is no need to be slaving away every evening.



-Wolf

of course not! Thanks for your post wolf. Will check out the other thread too.

Wolf wrote:


Although this is true for the final product, I don't think it is a good idea to not have a prototype of the first level, definitely set to be most likely erased, so not much detailed work should go into it.
But, as they say, every journey starts with the first step, so, a general layout of the landscape or so helps (at least me) to get things aligned in the ensuing levels, and also to get in the mood for the whole design process.

Duchenkuke wrote:

True. And they make it possible to try one's hand at things needed anyway, out of their natural / storybound order, but with set limitations,
so one doesn't get lost.

I often use such "loss of motivation" phases to try out things I think I am going to need later on (on a small, experimental level);
I wouldn't say GG is grossly unreliable, but it is totally frustrating when
* you know what you need to do,
* you are in the process of doing it

and suddenly just can't do it because an idiosyncrasy of GG crops up, stopping you fully in your tracks, with no way around,
as far as your story is concerned.

THAT is the #1 motiviation killer for me, because it hits at the worst possible moment, when creativity and motivation are at their highest,
and just are being blocked from coming out.

If one runs into that in an experimental / decoupled phase, it is not so bad, because one doesn't have to go back too far in ones own tracks to change courses, and - with fresh awares of the circumstance - may avoid to run into that problem in the real design phase.

Only yesterday, I took the opportunity to browse the full "Free models" forum from the last page to the first, and I found that I had but totally forgotten about some things from there, (e.g. Devcore35's "Fog" - features, albeit they are only 2D ); this somehow made me think of using this kind of fog to spice up locations where I had not really considered to use fog at all, before.

yeah happens to us all, thought would make a very simple mobile game while i waited for motivation to get back into guru....... 2 years later i released it on play store and it is basic as, just released it to tell myself it was done. Now with 2 more mobile games I have just stalled, to the point where i started learning AGK to make an app that simply takes an image and creates 5 resizes of it to use as icons(because i told myself this was good for my mobile games and easier then just using GIMP, turns it works a treat bit fully automated). got that working fine in one evening and yet im still playing with that instead of working on my games again.

who knows might get re motivated this week to get back onto my games...... but for now i managed to break my app and because full coding an app is new to me. my motivation is pulling me to work that out.

Hi there,

First I separate the planning of the stages and the story from the perform in "game guru", I wait for a good idea to come and it usually comes with passion when I am at work or somewhere else outdoor. I write immediately on my mobile phone or paper. I open the story to stages and think about the shape of the game and what specific elements I want in the levels, I never sure how many levels I want at the start.

I thinking about a main character and environment builds a plot around them, or sometimes I think about a certain idea and around it builds characters,

The planning maps of the levels, I first sketches on a paper with pen, writing aside some special scripts I need to produce or achieve and what the stage goals for the player, I do it for each level ,of course I consider my limitations.

Before I starting the first level (and its not must to be the first by the plot) I prepares for me in the guru some sounds and the infrastructure for the level and the game, which I know I need at the moment, and only then I go into the guru and start performing the page with the sketches, starting from something rough and improving each time, and I never sitting doing it if I don't have passion.

good luck my friend.

Thanks guys.

yrkoon said something very fitting to me:


At the Beginning, Hunted 1 was just the Night level (at the very start) and I built it on top of that.
I need something visual to start, thats why I started Hunted 2 again with a Level and the story was written after that.

I really think that the main thing that is blocking me is the Fact that I got the story, and I need to build the levels in that STORY FRAME.
The first game was developed in a ceative flury and the story was written around the levels... maybe I should try that again.

Yes when you get into it in your way the creative start to run.

Duchenkuke wrote


Hmm.. I guess it now depends how detailed and explicit the story already is;
if it is so detailed that you
* could write it down,
* give it to someone else
* and he could perceive it as a story worthwhile reading,
I bet there is section in there that is probably YOUR favourite, probably hardly needing any more fleshing out.

Why not try to create THIS section as a level ?
First of all, it is also probably "finished" in your mind, so, the likelihood that it will have to undergo serious change is small.
Then, by implementing it, you will actually see whether it is possible at all AND will look as YOU expected.
( Occasionally, things may seemingly come out "ok" as your friends will tell you, but you yourself know that something is just not right; if in doubt, trust your own feellings first, only don't turn a totally deaf ear to others .)

Then, run the level. Now comes the hard part:
Enter the level with a split mind, one part as a player, one part as a designer.
Think about the connectors to the level you're supposed to come from and the level you'll be going to.
How will you arrive here in this level ? WHY ? In what condition ?
Try to answer this from both the personalities (the player AND the designer) you are just bringing along.
Do the same for the level you are going to.

Thus, you'll have a back cast and a forecast for your gameplay around this level, and your level lies in between, with probably a sound piece of the story in it, and your imagination how it should REALLY look and work.

Walk the level a lot and have the designer in you "listen" to what the player in you would expect in detail if it wasn't your game at all, then it will work out.
It is A BIT like following the creative surge, yet following the set story.

There are 2 different styles of writing. First the one that involves prior planning and knowing pretty much the entire story before the story is properly started. Then you have the less planned organic style. You have a premise and (probably an ending) but basically go along on the fly. The story takes a life of it's own and basically writes itself. Sort of

Most authors use the first method for obvious reasons. It's a lot easier to write something when it's all planned and formulated. You can then just concentrate on getting the plan (story) written as well as you can. Some use the second. J. R. Tolkien is an example, along with George R. Martin more recently. Martin, calls it gardening, which is a fair analogy

Now personally I am definitely a Gardener developer. I never plan ahead as such. I take an initial idea and try to move forwards from it. This can work well, but can also result in dead ends and no easy way forward. When Tolkien wrote LOTR, he had no clue what to do when he first introduced Strider. He had added him at the time of writing, but he had no idea who he was or what he was going to do! If you have read LOTR, you will realise in the end Strider was a fairly important character, but at the time of writing when first introduced, he was no more than a menacing figure!

Now I would say that both methods are good. Generally people go one way or the other (ahem). I'd say the Gardening method is the one I go with, but I would say it always takes longer to write that way overall. I mean just look at how long it took to write LOTR and how long it is currently taking for Martin to finish GOT. In George Martin's case it's an issue as he decided to let a TV show be made before he had finished the story. Now, we will see a first for story telling where the TV adaptation is finished before the book! I honestly think it will be years before we see the books finished, you only have to look at how long it's taken so far. He released the first book in 1996 I think, so that's 21 years so far, for five books out of seven, with each book getting longer and longer. I expect (unless the last book is a lot shorter) we will be waiting a fair few years yet before the story is finished. I just hope my theory is correct and he is writing both books, in a similar fashion as he did before for 3 and 4. That way the final one may be well on the way to completion already.

Anyway I am rambling now I understand a lack of inspiration and focus. I'm in a similar place myself at the moment. Most days I can't even bring myself to load GG up. If I do, I am quickly annoyed at it's slowness. Which is typical as I was fairly happy with it on my old system. I get a new far faster one and now I find it worse to work with than ever So far I am fairly certain it's because I went the AMD route, which I always said I'd never do again, but the Ryzen just sounded too tempting for other things in the end.

Sometimes, the best bet is to take a break entirely for awhile. You may feel a little rusty when you return, but you should hopefully be champing at the bit to get going when you do go back to it! You could perhaps spend some time working on (planning) your game idea while you wait.

One last thing. As you have said above you are trying to make this game in a completely different way than your original. That may be the problem. This is why I mention the 2 writing styles that are predominantly used in (fictional) writing. You sound like you prefer to work with the gardening method as well. Planning a game story and idea well ahead is all very well and good. As long as you know pretty much what you can and can't achieve technically. As long as you can get the media for the story and setting together. If you don't, your whole story and design may be scuppered before it starts.

Having your level/s to run around may well be the way you kick start your creative juices in a similar way Tolkien and Martin used / use by imagining their worlds and creating maps, history and back stories for it. You may work better that way than trying to sit and plan the thing from start to finish.

When in doubt, ditch developing and just play games. Either brand new ones or some of your favourites.

Thats where the inspiration came from from in the first place, maybe it'll come back.

For me its the StTALKER series. I can't play a single session without the urge to fire up the editor and try to create a derelict factory.

Yeah totally right. It really helps!



same for me haha

haha simple but true

I'm a hobbyist also, but I'm hoping to make a nice game...

I guess we all get fatigued and burned out sometimes... I have been feeling that way recently... I have been working on a cowboy game (you can find it in the WIP thread titled "cowboy shootout").

The more bored, and burned out I feel, the more I go play some other games I like to play... It helps me have fun and relax... and it gives me some ideas on how to make things more fun in my game. I love FPS games and love the action. I'm currently playing a lot of L4D.

I started my game making and story at about the same time, and that might be why it's taking so long... I guess I should have done the story first (like smallg said)... I have a few other games with the stories already drawn out, but I'm swamped with the cowboy game at this time, and can't get to those other games.

I wish you, "Happy Gaming"...

... I'd love to frenetically aplause to DVader's wise words! they make much sense and are very inspirational for myself! the gardener-thing is the path that I personally would recommend, since it also feels like you are actually exploring and designing at the same time, which is way more sensual than writing down a concept and trying to build from there... with the "planned" method you'll need much more discipline.

here are some more unusual suggestions, coming from someone (hey, me!) who just started developing ideas (I got a notebook packed with them) into what some day might be worth to be called a "3D game made in GG", but has plenty of experience in actually finishing projects (music albums, videos, films, graphic-designs whathaveyou) ... just use these ideas as modulators, not as dogmatic rules.

- why several levels? just concentrate on doing a game based on ONE very good level. a game that can be solved in an hour or so, in a lunch break. If wou don't want to abandon your actual project, regard the "one level game" as a mood-enhancer for your mesolimbic system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolimbic_pathway

- why sticking to genres? make a game about a game-programmer trapped in his own unfinished game, trying to escape the cruel rules of his faulty, unfunctional world ("Why does the world end here?? Why is the door talking to me?? What if I jump over that unrealistic looking cliff?")

- I read that you are a composer as well. why not create a GG-level (I purposedly did not use the word "game") with a dominant angle on music and sounddesign?

- and this one here might talk to you as a musician as well: If in a creative block, Just pull a f...... card from Brian Eno's deck and adopt it to the game-dev-world! ...

http://lifehacker.com/brian-enos-oblique-strategies-cards-break-down-creativ-1612072551

I wish you heavy games!

robert /.-)

Yeah totally true. I just read your post Dvader you are totally on point.

Hunted 1 was definitely developed with the "gardening" method.
Gonna try it out but at the moment I dont even wanna run gg ^^ same as you.

THANKS so much for your posts guys, this has become a great thread.

That's my way, I can't plan almost anything, if I do I lost interest along the process, I need work with the idea+action at time; this make me repeat many things till I'm happy, but does not matter due I enjoy what I'm doing.
I'm unable to plan a fun travel, I know the wise must be to have all ready in the destination, hotels, restaurants and so on, but then, what are we letting to the adventure, destiny, surprices, ya! bad moments too, but that's the travel, the funny is I don`t know what day tomorrow is, and of course what time it is, and I don't want to know, does not matter, is a travel just for fun, How do you expect to enjoy it if everything is chronometrically planned beforehand?

Personally I'm working on my maze game, in any moment lost inspiration, I began to work mechanically, modeling items as if they were chairs, so I realized that it was time to stop and do something different.
For me to model objects for a game must be something inpiring, to fill me with what I am doing, to give me passion; It should never seem to paint legs of a chair in a factory.
So I set to work in the watercolor world, sometime just changing target might help.

3com

Great post 3com, thank you.