Product Chat / 2017.03.27 BETA Public Preview Problems

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Ratall
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 09:25 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 09:46
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As I encountered my first problem with the Public Preview I thought I'd start a thread hopefully everyone will stick theirs here so Lee will have a one stop shop of horrors.

so here is the first the problem.

If you change a terrain texture in the pallet then load and old map the texture displayed in the pallet reflects the change but when you try to use it in the map you get the old(original) texture.
So the texture displayed in the pallet is not the same as the texture painted when it is selected.

Edit to add a bit of info
If you edit one of the other textures on pallet ,the pallet updates the miss displayed texture so it reflects the one that is actually painted.

The texture pallet display is not being updated to reflect the texture pallet of the map when a new map is loaded. It does not get updated until you make a change in the pallet that causes the pallet display to be regenerated.
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Ratall
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 10:14 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 10:15
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The _main and _init function names for some of the ai_ luas' are still incorrect in the beta.

ai_charge.lua still has ai_charge_rpg_init and ai_charge_rpg_main

ai_fantasycreature.lua still has ai_fantasycreature2_init and ai_fantasycreature2_main

ai_wanderer.lua still has ai_soldier_init and ai_soldier_main

I suspect Lee just missed copying the corrected ones to the preview. Not really surprising with the long hours he puts in.
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 10:26
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There's still issues with AI not working properly, still falling through floors, still jumping over buildings and other entities, still walking through water as if it's not there, still trying to run through walls, the floor zone system is still too awkward to place on multi level buildings, zombies are still moving at super speeds. He needs to finish AI properly before skipping onto the next new thing.

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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 10:45 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 10:52
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Found a couple of issues pretty quickly here.

I have found that the terrain still merges into set layers rather than matching the terrain next to it, causing ugly edges around paths and between textures. There's also some odd glitching that I imagine may be the UV issue Lee has mentioned.

After adding a new texture to the palette the resulting new texture was corrupted. Resulting in a completely black terrain with a few traces of the grid left. Running the level then resulted in a black haze floating over the terrain at all times. The old terrain is visible but the black haze floats over it and moves with you, like a very flat ground fog effect.


If you save your level and reload it all returns to normal. So something is obviously not restoring properly after the mega texture is made until you reload GG.


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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 10:49
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Quote: "I have found that the terrain still merges into set layers rather than matching the terrain next to it, causing ugly edges around paths and between textures."


This was something i really hoped that Lee would get rid of with this update, the set layer system just looks so ugly, i'd even be happy to still have only 4 terrain textures if we could place them in any order without the unsightly layer blend.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 10:53
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You can change the order no problem, just right click the texture in the texture selector and chose the order the textures will overlay. I will make a video soon showing how to use the new terrain texture system.
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 10:57
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Changing the order doesn't help, it still means we can only put a terrain texture next to the next one in the order, what if we want to put it next to three or four other textures, we will still get the ugly lines in between the other textures, we could combat that by duplicating terrains, but that would reduce the variety we can use.

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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 11:07 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 11:10
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I agree, I was hoping for this also. You really can't use terrains as you would like with this effect. A path may look great in a grass area, but as soon as it crosses into sand the edge is really obvious. So your forced to have grass at all times along your path or hide the effect somehow with objects.

I'd like to see far better blending with the terrain you paint over and/or possibly a way to turn off blending entirely so you can make clear edges on the floor. Sometimes, you may not want or need a blended edge.

Still early days yet though, it could well be that improved blending is planned once the basic texture atlas has been implemented without these little issues.

Edit - @ Lee so changing the textures order will be the method of sorting out the blend?


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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 11:37
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Thanks for the feedback on the new terrain system, keep it coming. Will be fixing and improving as we go.

@DVader : Your issue of "After adding a new texture to the palette the resulting new texture was corrupted.". Can you specify what texture style you started with and what texture you picked, and into which slot, so I can reproduce this black texture issue, thanks.

@Belidos : Only these small terrain niggles are sorted, I will be looking at remaining Building Editor and AI issues still kicking about. I can reproduce the 'through floor' issue on Classic characters, but if you can send me a small FPM level using stock assets (not from Expansion Pack or DLCs) showing the "still jumping over buildings and other entities" issue, that would help me hugely, thanks!
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 11:42 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 11:43
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Yes, the texture blend order is the basis of the technique I am using. If you wanted something more aggressive, it would hit performance, which is why I have resisted going whole hog. Only having four textures was a real limit, so this is a small step to resolving that. When painting your terrains, it's suggested you plan your order from 'lowest to highest' for your texture choices, and then stick to this layering for your levels. Here is a simple shot with lava at the lowest and ice at the very top.



I have reserved the 'green' channel for a possible secondary layer of texturing or a way to store some kind of blend controller factor, but any additional effect will hit shader performance for terrain rendering, so we must tred carefully.
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 11:47
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Quote: "but if you can send me a small FPM level using stock assets (not from Expansion Pack or DLCs) showing the "still jumping over buildings and other entities" issue, that would help me hugely, thanks!"


I wish i could, bt it's such a random thing i haven't been able to intentionally recreate it, it just happens randomly every now and again, they will run up to an entity to get to you and just rocket up in the are and over the entity, i haven't been able to determine any rhyme or reason to it.

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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 11:50
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Quote: "Here is a simple shot with lava at the lowest and ice at the very top"


And you can see right there in that image the exact issue we want to avoid. Look at the lava, it has a ring of rock, and then a ring of what looks like sand, then grass, it looks so unnatural and ugly.

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DVader
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 11:57
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It was the second slot using clay.dds. I've tried again since and all seems well, using the same map that corrupted and also a fresh one. So not sure what happened the first time round. It may be a difficult one to reproduce

Also noticed the blends have improved as well. Not 100% sure if this is down to me changing the texture selection, but not seeing the grass rings around everything now. It seems to avoid the blend issue, you have to carefully choose your texture placement on the atlas. Makes sense, as that was what I was testing when I got the black screen. The only issue I see here is you will not really have 16 unique textures, as you will probably need to duplicate a couple or more to keep the blending working well with the others.

Definitely a marked improvement on the old system though when you start adjusting the palette.


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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 12:02
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Quote: "Definitely a marked improvement on the old system though when you start adjusting the palette."


Certainly is an improvement, and please don't get me wrong Lee, i'm not trying to put down your work, i just want it to be perfect, the more feedback you get the more chance you have of getting it working better

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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 12:14 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 12:15
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When you change the terrain type in test mode, in this case to desert. Then go back to the editor and try painting textures, they are not matching. I include a picture. I have added one of each of the four textures along the top of the palette, but as you can see on the terrain the colours are merely tiny variants on the desert floor. Although it looks nice and subtle or could if not patched down like I have here, it does not reflect what you are selecting in the texture panel.

The last splotch should be a grass texture, but is obviously not.


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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 13:53
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Most of the above terrain niggles fixed, will upload shortly

@Belidos : If you want two textures side by side without a ring, just place them next to each other in your custom texture plate and they will blend together nicely. What I suspect you are after is a way to paint any texture in any order, overlapping based on chronological addition, much like an art package would apply colours. If you can suggest a terrain rendering technique that can achieve that without hitting present performance, I am all ears I do have some more ideas in the areas of 'texture splatting', but that's another feature for another day. Today's mission is increasing texture choice from 4 to 16.
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 19:20
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just one comment form me. please Lee do not release any more updates as long as there are any problems with witch you are not happy with. let the beta test team test as long as they need to, and once they and you are happy that there are no problems , then release an update. otherwise , the more updates we get with problems just causes more problems on my maps, and i am sure on a lot of other users maps as well.

Im sorry to say this but, i am so down at this point in time with the latest updates that do not work, not feeling like making any more maps at this point.
will just wait until one day all is better.

Thanks for all the hard work, i know you have put all in to the updates.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 20:25
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@PCSKILLER : Sorry if the updates are leaving your maps behind, was not my intention. Are you part of the internal beta development team, as that is the best way to get in a serious bug issue focused on, and you are happy come in (and the best way to address your specific issues). Alternatively, both beta and public previews are by their nature somewhat unstable to work on active game projects so for cases like this I highly recommend you use the beta tab in the Steam properties to set your version to an older version that proved stable for you. Then pick the biggest issue you have send me a very detailed step by step with FPM using stock media (not expansion or DLC content), and I can include it in the next batch of tweaks and fixes that accompany every update. I know you will have a few issues, but by focusing on one at a time, I can remember which bug belongs to which person
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Belidos
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 21:56 Edited at: 28th Mar 2017 22:01
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One thing I've noticed that I'm really pleased you've fixed, grass now overlays the terrain textures instead of defaulting them

One thing I'm not pleased with, instead of the single ring of texture we had around each terrain texture before, we now have a ring for each of the previous 4 or 5 terrain textures, it just looks absolutely awful.



If you want some ideas for terrain work, check out AGF, I know you have it in your library, his implementation isn't anywhere near your quality, but his ideas behind his features are spot on.

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cybernescence
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Posted: 28th Mar 2017 22:45
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Looks like Preben's terrain updates are missing? Some of those were really great ... the absence of tiling on high terrain setting for example.

Cheers.

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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 00:07 Edited at: 29th Mar 2017 00:07
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@Belidos : Check out the video I've just posted, specifically mapping the gray path and the yellow pave textures together so there is no banding. Remember the order of the texture slots is the order of the blending. Can you describe the aspect of the AGF terrain painting you want me to emulate?

@cybernescence : I removed the tri-planar texturing (non-FASTROCKTEXTURE) as this was deactivated by default in Preben's shaders and no-one seemed to complain, and also removed the IMPROVEDISTANCE code to keep my first re-implementation of the terrain shader as straight as possible. Once we're happy with the new flavor of shader, we can see if users want this returning and to gauge any performance cost of having on by default. As you can see from the code below, the technique requires an extra sampler read command, and with the new system this translates to up to 3 extra sampler reads per screen pixel, and six for the HIGHEST shader setting which would require normal map sampling too:

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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 00:23
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Hi Lee - the "IMPROVEDISTANCE" made a vast improvement to terrain visuals for me (removing the tiling/carpet effect), so if it could be returned as an option to turn on/off through compiler directives that would be great - appreciate not everyone may want this - and not sure what performance hit that actually translates to until can try it, but do accept there will be one . I have a lot of levels where terrain is traversed at elevation and it looked really much better with the absence of the carpeting.

Cheers.


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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 00:33
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Okay, I will add it back in, but off by default, so users have the choice. Should be in the final March update
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 00:40
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Thank you! Appreciate it

Just watched your video - hadn't quite understood the blending part until seeing this, but I get it now and also it's great that the custom atlas is stored per level - going to make terrain look a lot better overall.

Cheers.
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 00:42
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@Lee
Just had a look at your quick tutorial on using the 16 textures really clarified things for me.

It occurs to me that as the textures are layer and have this blending effect it would feel more intuitive to lay the pallet out as a single vertical strip with the top texture at the top and the lowest texture at the bottom. just an idea.

Great work as always much appreciated
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 00:56 Edited at: 29th Mar 2017 00:57
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@Ratall : Nice idea about the vertical/horizontal strip to further illustrate the ordering I used the 4x4 as it's a direct mapping of the real texture, but there is no reason why the end user should know or care about this. Something to consider for a future small tweak

@cybernescence : IMPROVEDISTANCE now back in for the update tomorrow:

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Belidos
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 06:25
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I understand how the blend works, thanks for the confirmation, but it really doesn't help with the specific situation me and dvader are talking about. Were talking about marking paths and roads etc as terrain textures, which slot would we use for that? A path could be at any height so it needs to blend with any height of terrain texture, the bands ruin the effect when it comes to paths if you know what I mean.

As to AGF, sorry u went a little off topic with that one, I wasn't meaning their blend system, it was just a general idea for terrain features as a whole, they have some great features, for example they use a grid system like ebe to lock the height for raising and lowering land, they have multiple brush types, they can control the fall off of sculpting etc. I was just pointing them out to give you a general idea for some cool features with terrain.

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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 08:14 Edited at: 29th Mar 2017 10:14
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When you think about it, although technically and physically we now have 16 textures to choose from, effectively we're still limited to 4 different textures with 3 variants of that texture because of the way it blends.

Would it not be better to have it in subsets, so instead of 16 textures all blending from 1 to 16, we would have 4 subsets of 4 textures that blend with two "rings" in the subset?

So basically texture 1 on each set would be on the same layer, 2 on each set would be on the same layer, and so on, that way we can have more scope for variety of textures.

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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 08:52
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Hi all

CURRENT ISSUES

Ok, I know Lee said some of these have been fixed already. But just thought I would confirm some of the issues mentioned already.

Quote: "I have found that the terrain still merges into set layers rather than matching the terrain next to it, causing ugly edges around paths and between textures. There's also some odd glitching that I imagine may be the UV issue Lee has mentioned."


Agreed, will be good for that to be fixed.

Quote: "After adding a new texture to the palette the resulting new texture was corrupted. Resulting in a completely black terrain with a few traces of the grid left. Running the level then resulted in a black haze floating over the terrain at all times. The old terrain is visible but the black haze floats over it and moves with you, like a very flat ground fog effect."


Had this problem in the first 30 seconds of trying the new system, didn't run the level but that blacked out editor just told me no point in doing that, and I had to go to work anyhow


Quote: ""IMPROVEDISTANCE" made a vast improvement "


Yes I definitely use this option, any performance hit is worth it - it is just so much better. Glad it has been put back in - thanks @Lee


OTHER OBSERVATIONS

I noticed one of my own standard terrain sets is super glossy now, which is cool for one level since it is raining, but won't be much good when it is dry lol. Have not had time to test this out with any of my other terrains or stock ones but will have a play tonight, after I have watched Lees video.

Also if not shown in the video, can we still paint terrain in test mode? - this is currently the only way I paint terrain.

On a side note, I am finding it a bit hard to see that i would actually ever need 16 textures - lol.

Thanks for all the awesome work Lee.

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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 10:05
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@Lee, is there a way I can get in on the beta releases? I use Game Guru everyday bugs or not and I'm willing and have the time to test away!
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 11:01
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Quote: "Quote: ""IMPROVEDISTANCE" made a vast improvement "
Yes I definitely use this option, any performance hit is worth it - it is just so much better. Glad it has been put back in
"


I still think this should be default , it just make any outdoor scene look so mush better also perhaps make it default "medium". the patterns in the textures just make everything looks so unnatural , and it dont just remove the pattern you will also see mush more details in the textures in the distance , Lee if you had used a proper rock texture in your sample image above , you would have been able to actually see rocks at that distance.
best regards Preben Eriksen,
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 11:19
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Took a look at the new terrain shader and noticed a bug.

This:

Should be:

That bug will remove normals from all rock textures , wonder how long that has been there.

Also please decrease slope a little on rock texture , its nearly never visible on a normal terrain , this change make it look mush better:
From:

To:



best regards Preben Eriksen,
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 11:29
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Will be fixed for next build, out shortly
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 11:33
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@Nailgrind : You can set your Steam to use the Public Preview which is being updated at the same time as the beta right now
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 12:04
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Hi all,

I have also found that selecting the old texture sets in Tab Tab has issues: Some of the stock ones take a lot longer to be applied than before, and most custom terrains take ages as if the system has locked up.

Also I agree with Preben, "IMPROVEDISTANCE should be on by default

Reliquia....
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Belidos
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 12:13
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Yeah that would peobably be because gameguru is generating new textures the first time you change to an old set to fit in to the rest of the 16 slots, if you look at the terrain pallet after switching you will see it has added 16 textures into the pallet (4 of each), in theory it should only do that once per old terrain set i think.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 12:15
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@reliquia : The wait is a one time only delay while the old terrain sets are upgraded to the new texturing system (creates Texture_D.dds and Texture_N.dds in the terrain bank set folder).
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DVader
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 14:33
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@PCSKILLER. I have had maps broken with updates as well in the past, although recent updates have been okay in general. I usually save a new version of my map straightaway (new name), just in case there is a problem. That way you can revert back to the older version and continue with the original with no issues. It normally only breaks a map if you save it in the new version rather than just loading it.

You would have the same issue in Unreal and other engines as well with any updates. Add-on's and plugin's you may use for instance are often broken when a new version is released. That's why many developers stick to a specific version while developing a game.

@ Lee. Perhaps to avoid the path issue Belidos and myself have mentioned, without losing all those textures, would be a separate paint path tool at some point? Ideally something like the spline path tool in Crysis. This would enable any blending you wish with simple texture transparency.

I must admit I have been hoping for something like that since Reloaded was first released. In honesty, it's probably on the voting list, I saw it mentioned several times when checking through the list of requests.

In case anyone has no idea what I am talking about, here's a video example.

It's amazing how much can be put into a simple road tool. We don't need it to be as complex as this, but a simplified version of it would be a good way to produce paths through your levels.


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Belidos
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 14:36
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Quote: "@ Lee. Perhaps to avoid the path issue Belidos and myself have mentioned, without losing all those textures, would be a separate paint path tool at some point? Ideally something like the spline path tool in Crysis. This would enable any blending you wish with simple texture transparency."


Something like this would be awesome, although i would be happy if say the last 4 slots had transparency instead of blend and could be used for paths etc.

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cybernescence
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Posted: 29th Mar 2017 22:16
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Quote: "That bug will remove normals from all rock textures , wonder how long that has been there."


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