Product Chat / [LOCKED] AI control

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shivers
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Posted: 21st Feb 2017 21:43
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Hello

It seems that soon will have new AI and that the bad guys will be able to jump through windows and chase the player down and take cover and things. But to me would't it be better to give us control over AI for what we need. Seems like if lee just makes the AI smarter that it will only patch a hole not solve a problem. Not that I don't want better AI but seems to me that if lee wanted to save him self some work. Making AI that we can control would be better. Lets face it what good will it do some to try and make a game if it does't do what you need? Not all games need AI that shoots the player. Since lee is working on AI I think it would be better to have a AI that could be tailored to any game. I just thought I would throw this Idea out there its not a demand or anything. I saw that lee was wanting better reviews and I feel if new people as well as current users had more control over things like AI maybe it would help. So what does everyone think is this a good idea or am I dreaming and this is not possible for lee to do? But I feel if lee just makes the AI a little smarter he will have to make it even smarter later on mark my words. Each time lee adds a fix the community always wants more lol. Its up to lee what ever he decides after all some AI is better than none, But I thought if he could achieve the control option he might be better off. I really don't know I'm not a programmer so I might be suggesting the wrong thing
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Belidos
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Posted: 21st Feb 2017 21:48
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Quote: "But to me would't it be better to give us control over AI for what we need"


That's what he's already doing, he's not just writing hard coding for them, he's opening up DarkAI and other AI controls to LUA scripting so we can script more.

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shivers
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Posted: 21st Feb 2017 22:00
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I was thinking something a long the lines of maybe have all the animations like sitting drinking what every you have in mind. Then have a zone and once you put the character in the zone you choose the action and the character would do that animation and then you could link animations that way very little programming would be involved. Just put a zone with the action name like sit then have some logic like if player comes within distance stand up talk or walk away ect. This would be good for new people and none coders alike. But the idea maybe not workable don't know much about programming it maybe really time consuming for lee don't know. Its just a idea for maybe a better way. Or maybe not lol.
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Belidos
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Posted: 21st Feb 2017 22:14
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It would be totally workable, but it would take months of coding, and the base AI system would need to be working properly first, that's the part he's doing now, adding something like you described would be an additional thing that can be added to the voting board once it's been reset.

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AmenMoses
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Posted: 21st Feb 2017 22:23
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This sort of thing you mean.

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granada
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Posted: 21st Feb 2017 23:48
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Latest update on lees thread looks cool

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smallg
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 01:11
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Quote: "Latest update on lees thread looks cool "

it does, a nice improvement but i still don't like the pause when they reach the old player's destination, makes them look dumb when you can keep changing position to make them stutter step, looks better in his video compared with what we have now but still noticeable, if that gets removed then it's going to make a much more deadly enemy indeed
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granada
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 01:50
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Quote: "
it does, a nice improvement but i still don't like the pause when they reach the old player's destination, makes them look dumb when you can keep changing position to make them stutter step, looks better in his video compared with what we have now but still noticeable, if that gets removed then it's going to make a much more deadly enemy indeed
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Early days yet,a lot more to come I think.just nice to see enemies using stairs.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 08:27
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The plan is indeed to open up the AI so Lee does not have to code every variation of behavior out there I have simplified the pathfinding and avoidance code, and moved the animation and movement responsibility to the LUA script. This way you can make any combination of "think, plot, anim, move" as you see fit, and for those who cannot script rest assured there will always be a handful of fine community scripters ready to deliver something very close to what you want. I'm just throwing out a few basic scripts to get the whole ball rolling.
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devlin
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 13:05
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The path finding looks amazing , cant wait for it to be released.
will make gg more of an attraction in many ways.
great job .
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synchromesh
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 13:21
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Any chance we can have the Zombie as well
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 19:27
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I should be able to include it as a template character on the condition it cannot be sublicensed. If you want Fuse characters specifically, you will have to make your own directly in that package in order to have full rights to redistribute (i.e. in your game). There is a reason for this, and a reason why Fuse is a zillion times better than our built-in Character Creator. That said, currently it's a good way to get relatively cheap characters in your game before that door closes

In answer to the 'Lee, make your character creator more like Fuse', I would reply the same as those that wanted the Building Editor to be a 3D modeller, which is that I don't want to reinvent the wheel. There are 3 or 4 great character generators out there, and far better for me to support importing from those than creating a fifth one (and of course, it took a team of coders years to create the aforementioned so going away for a few years to knock up a Fuse beater on my lonesome while GameGuru features stagnate is probably not a smart move). Also, something like a character creator can be worked on by third parties and is not 'engine related' so there is also a possibility it can be outsourced in the future (when GameGuru is more successful and scoring better on Steam).
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DVader
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 20:46
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Fuse import would be fine I don't think people would complain if GG imported fuse npc's.


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3com
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2017 21:58
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Quote: "I have simplified the pathfinding and avoidance code, and moved the animation and movement responsibility to the LUA script"

The lab is open, great work so far Lee.

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MooKai
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 00:47
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"I should be able to include it as a template character on the condition it cannot be sublicensed. "
I would not add it to GG, even if I want it too... sooner or later you'll find it somewhere in a game. Freeware or commerc. game.

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synchromesh
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 01:00
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Ye I take back my request ....
If its a sore subject then rather not have it in GG as its bound to get abused at some point ..
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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devlin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 11:20
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i see third person has been added to other characters in the beta anyone tested yet ?
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Gtox
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 13:00
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@devlin - I tried it with a zombie and it worked fine. No melee combat yet, but it ran around and jumped with no problems.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 13:11
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Adding Melee now
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MooKai
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 14:39
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Some more camera options for 3rd person 2.5D games would..... Be.... I'm just thinking
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synchromesh
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 14:58 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2017 15:02
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Quote: "Some more camera options for 3rd person 2.5D games would..... Be.... I'm just thinking "

Now we are wandering into platform games which would be awesome but theres a lot more to it than that ...
Mouse Lock, Directional fire, Directional Melee etc .... Like you I hope we get it but its not just a case of simple Cameras options

But you never know .... Lee seems to be going to town at the moment
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 18:03
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I hope third person new system will get a smooth camera and not the jerky actual one.

Does AI still needs to have walls separated from floor instead of importing a whole 3D model ?
LeeBamber
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 18:42
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@Mouaa : Set your VSYNC in SETUP.INI and re-run GameGuru and your Third Person level, does it jerk then? The stutter can be caused by the non-60 fps flip blitting that is not synced with your monitors refresh rate.
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 19:53
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So my moonlander level no longer works, I assume it is because the 3rd person character is no longer running the script attached to it?

Also how do we get characters made with the creator to walk normally, looks a bit daft having an astronaut pointing a gun he doesn't have.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 20:08 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2017 20:13
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Quote: "So my moonlander level no longer works, I assume it is because the 3rd person character is no longer running the script attached to it?
"

If this is a beta issue please ask in the Beta thread .... It gets so confusing people posting beta issues in product chat ..

EDIT ...Never mind ..
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 20:09
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@AmenMoses : Send me a bug report directly by email, ideally with a short script which used to work in V1.14 and no longer in the beta. I have messed about with some of the AI related LUA commands for the overhaul, and you might now be dependent on legacy functionality which has been altered. for example, any kind of AI GO TO movement would need some adjustment in your scripts. With such a drastic AI overhaul it was not possible to retain backward compatibility with the old 'stupid AI' functionality in places. Also the script running on third person characters was supposed to be a bug, but it seems you are using it deliberately. In the case of a regular script for enemies being used for TPP Mode, what do you suggest as we cannot have the character thinking he's an enemy at the same time being driven by the player. How about a new script field in the Start Marker when third person is being used, so you can specify it there?
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MooKai
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 22:17
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"Mouse Lock, Directional fire, Directional Melee etc .... Like you I hope we get it but its not just a case of simple Cameras options

But you never know .... Lee seems to be going to town at the moment "

Yes, yes I know I was just thinking loud.
With the new shaders etc. Platformer games would look already good...
But for 2.5 games the camera must be smooth, means not to stop from 100 to 0 in a second, need some deceleration.
Oh, just thinking loud again,...
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2017 22:47
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Quote: " Set your VSYNC in SETUP.INI and re-run GameGuru and your Third Person level, does it jerk then? The stutter can be caused by the non-60 fps flip blitting that is not synced with your monitors refresh rate."

@Lee
This is more the actual Third Person movement that i find not smooth , in most third person games where camera stays always behind player and follow smoothly it's movement. If you play any commercial or indie Third Person game and compare with GG Third Person camera , you'll notice quickly the difference.

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Posted: 24th Feb 2017 00:00 Edited at: 24th Feb 2017 00:09
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just need player to be ale to shoot left and right now.
to open up side scroll games function this would be a great addition
and great for platformers or proper top down shooter, fingers crossed
lee might add to the the ai update now rather than latter,
Melee in , speed and pace of the updates are great ,
GG changing so fast at the moment a real positive for the engine,
and opening up lots of new opportunities,
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Posted: 24th Feb 2017 08:30
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You would also need to lock the camera for a platformer.
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arfur9
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Posted: 24th Feb 2017 08:49
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I think the camera needs a bit of damping
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 24th Feb 2017 11:17
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@Mouaa: Did you set your VSYNC = 1 in SETUP.INI and re-run GameGuru and your Third Person level? When I do this, the TPP camera is smooth as silk here.
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Mouaa
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Posted: 24th Feb 2017 21:22
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@Lee
I changed VSync.
This is not a technical issue but the mouse and camera controls that are not smooth when you do rotation with mouse around character. The mouse sensivity is too hight and camera rotation around the character is not smooth and we see visible small camera jumping movements to catch with mouse movement, it results on some character small remanant display.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 24th Feb 2017 22:30
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Can anyone else confirm this 'not smooth' issue. I am unable to reproduce the issue successfully...
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synchromesh
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Posted: 25th Feb 2017 08:48
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@Mouaa
Perhaps you could do a video .. It may help lee see what your seeing
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Mouaa
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Posted: 25th Feb 2017 12:27 Edited at: 25th Feb 2017 12:29
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@synchromesh
You can see it in some videos alreay like this one , 4:46 camera rotations are not smooth, at 5:17 when the character runs and camera turns, both are really jerky, i have the same


With many indie engines you will have a smooth camera and character rotations, you will not notice any small perceptible jitters.
Or simply watch any game
synchromesh
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Posted: 25th Feb 2017 15:07
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I think its just comparing a AAA and probably million dollar game with £14.99 GameGuru in all fairness ....
Smoothness will probably improve with future graphic optimisations ... You were able to smooth things out a little with the Motion Blur in third person but that seems to be disabled at the moment .
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Posted: 25th Feb 2017 18:03 Edited at: 25th Feb 2017 19:13
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Quote: "I think its just comparing a AAA and probably million dollar game with £14.99 GameGuru in all fairness .... "

No no
I was not refering Tomb Raider dynamic camera behaviours.
If you tests a TPS code inside Unity, Godot, Xenko or another indie engine , and you'll get a smooth camera with few lines of code.

The frame rate is really low in this engine, but the camera roation is smooth, no jittering


Look at 31:13 it is smooth and the code is very small


Something needs fix or work with GG tps code, because jittering in GG should not happen.
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Posted: 25th Feb 2017 23:48
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I just need to reproduce it The GameGuru video shown is an old one (December 2015) and the camera has been improved since to solve the smoothing issue so I need an independent witness now to give me some simple step by step test to highlight the issue. For now with VSYNC=1 my TPP mode runs super slick smooth at 60 FPS (my monitor at 60 Hz)
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AmenMoses
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 00:08
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Personally I always run with vsync=1 as everything is so much smoother. The human eye can't actually perceive frame rates higher than 25-30 anyhow so I don't see why anyone would want to set it to 0 (apart from bragging rights of course ), the bad old days of CRTs with peripheral flicker issues has long gone.
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devlin
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 02:04
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the new video of the ai and zombie look great on the progress update thread.
great work.
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granada
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 02:08
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Quote: "the new video of the ai and zombie look great on the progress update thread.
great work.
"


Have to agree,very cool.

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Earthling45
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 03:24
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I've made a quick video with tpv, in my view it works very good.
This is a locked cam to show that this possibility including height/distance/angle can be set in properties.
Any noticable stuttering is due to my mouse or microsoft because my mousecursor reacts the same.

What i did find while trying Lee, when trees are sprayed on the map, the collision is not properly.
I've noticed this yesterday and tested it on a blank map, placing trees one by one did not give me the same problem, but after spraying them on the map i had the same collision problem as you can see in the video.

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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 18:24
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@Earthling45
Can you test like in the GG video, running and turning at same time ? you'll see some character or camera jitter effect.

@Lee
Quote: " The GameGuru video shown is an old one (December 2015) and the camera has been improved since to solve the smoothing issue "


I made the test yesterday, and i got the same result as in GG video with VSYNC = 1 , there is the same strange jittering.

Hopefully the Api improvments will allow us to control camera and player in Lua as we want, this is the way to get any camera sensivity and smooth or make any camera systems.

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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 18:32
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On live at the moment when I use the third person character I've found that when you sprint if you turn the character while sprinting you get stutter, it's almost like the same kind of stutter we used to get when moving entities by turning collision on and off, more like a flicker.

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cybernescence
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 19:22
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It doesn't bother me it's not too bad but there is a slight stutter when running in third person. Most noticeable when shift running left or running right a or d.

Cheers.
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 20:22
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Quote: "@Earthling45
Can you test like in the GG video, running and turning at same time ? you'll see some character or camera jitter effect."





I've done a second video with your request, running and turning at the same time.
With a locked cam, everything is really running smoothly, with an unlocked cam there is some stuttering noticeable on the character.
Running and turning is not required, simply turning the camera around the character is enough to notice this.

Now we focus on this stuttering, hence i'm quite swiftly moving and turning while running.
To be honest, yes the locked cam is really running smoothly, but the unlocked cam isn't so bad either.
Let's also not forget that Game Guru is being developed by one man, Lee himself whereas other software which you so often refer to, has a whole team and many years of development behind them.
Yet, in my view, Game Guru is going to set a new benchmark because it is quite friendly for novices like me.
It is so easy to point to what is wrong, but go ahead and try to do the same as Lee, develop an game engine from scratch.
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cybernescence
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Posted: 26th Feb 2017 21:04
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Lee is a super star. Anyone who pulls weeks of 14 hour coding days and then supplements with week end working too is just a coding ninja - awesome. I can see the amazing results in the beta and Lee is on fire.

Cheers.
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Posted: 27th Feb 2017 01:28 Edited at: 27th Feb 2017 14:49
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Quote: "Anyone who pulls weeks of 14 hour coding days and then supplements with week end working too is just a coding ninja"


Well Lee is an " Intel Blackbelt " officially .... One of the Elite !!
https://software.intel.com/en-us/blackbelt/honorees
The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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Mouaa
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Posted: 27th Feb 2017 13:00 Edited at: 27th Feb 2017 13:05
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Game engine architcture, modularity or editor interface are not based on coding abilities.
And actually the most huge part in game engines is shaders coding for rendering , global illumination, characters GPU animations, particles GPU and anything else.
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