Product Chat / Game "weight" and speed improvement (low fps very often)

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Cylo
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Posted: 10th Dec 2016 16:31
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I bet this has already been told.

But the engine really needs to generate lighter environments and be optimized in a better way.
And, before you blame my machine, I must tell that I'm using a PC that can run any triple A game in the days.

I'm telling this, because in MANY cases during tests I get low fps.
Even in the SAMPLE projects.


While in an empty space terrain I get even 300fps, in many projects it falls to ridiculous levels of frame rate.

For example, playing the "Gem World" demo, I often get 15 fps even putting everything on LOWEST.
And this is unacceptable.

How can you seriously work with this issue?
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 10th Dec 2016 16:50
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There can be a few reasons for this.

Can you please list your machine specs, GPU, and Operating system.

Thank you.
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Wolf
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Posted: 10th Dec 2016 22:52 Edited at: 10th Dec 2016 22:53
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This has been moved to product chat as it is not a work in progress game.



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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 11th Dec 2016 02:46
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Quote: "And this is unacceptable."


My favorite line.

Quote: "I must tell that I'm using a PC that can run any triple A game in the days."


My second favorite line.

Quote: "How can you seriously work with this issue?"


Optimize. Don't expect the engine to do it for you. It won't, and neither will any other engine, so don't bother with the whole idea of comparison. Yes, UE4 and Unity will run much faster. Don't compare them. Just don't. It's not realistic.

Quote: "I bet this has already been told."


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Posted: 12th Dec 2016 16:40
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Yes, GG can be slow. It needs a bit more poke under the hood. You can get a lot more speed out of it with some effort though. Some things can be quite easy and fast to add, draw distance, shader levels, removing the water and terrain when possible, adjusting grass to the minimum you can live with. Others are more involved such as making your own media that is more efficient for your level. But yes, most big AAA games will run on my machine as well, they are however made by large teams of industry professional's with pretty big budgets. Competing against them is never going to be an easy task, even if you use Unreal or any other professional engine out there.

It helps if you keep your levels smaller and don't go for an open world affair as well My WIP is a good indication that speed can be improved, although obviously from a video of a game you have never seen running it may be difficult to see. A demo would really show it off better, but that's not even a remote possibility at present.


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Posted: 12th Dec 2016 20:29
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How about you post the passmark score for your rig.

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Cylo
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 00:02
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@Jerry Tremble: Your post is my FAVOURITE one...

However. What I mean is, the entire environment is hungry on system resources, it's incredible that I can't add some dozens enemies and framerate goes down becoming unplayable.
I have to optimize (that's what I do on settings), but it stays so slow.

I mean, my GPU passmark score is 4950 and CPU's 6339 with 8GB of DDR3 RAM.
And I get around 20fps on "Gem World"...
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 01:48
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You need better hardware to run GG.
Post the link to your pass mark score like I did above.
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 04:00
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Cylo, it was really your first comment that really summed up everything that came after!

Quote: "I bet this has already been told."


You were correct. Your grievances have been told countless times before, and are discussed on pretty much a daily basis around here!

GG itself just really isn't optimized enough yet to deliver blockbuster results. (I believe a lot of it involves the shaders used, but I'm no expert in such things so take that with a half grain of salt). The sliders alone are not going to "optimize" any game, although some will affect performance. Try turning off bloom, that seems to have the greatest impact currently. I had never tried "Gem World" before. Thanks for pointing it out! I was getting between 30-40 fps on my laptop, all on highest settings except terrain (the defaults). Anyway, there is a lot of good advice around here on truly optimizing the assets you use in your game as well as level design. Sorry I can't point you to any specific threads as I haven't been saving them as I've gone along. Even the regular TGC forums are chalk full of valuable info!

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Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 08:18 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 08:23
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Optimize. Don't expect the engine to do it for you. It won't, and neither will any other engine, so don't bother with the whole idea of comparison. Yes, UE4 and Unity will run much faster. Don't compare them. Just don't. It's not realistic.

I agree with him, GG is too slow even on lowest quality, compared to some other small engines like Néo Axis, old Torque 3D engine or some quake old engine.
Using the Village demo map on Néo Axis with particles lot of models, i put 20 npc moving and attacking the player , i got the frame rate stable at 60fps.
You can take users feedback to try making GG better, or ignore feedback behind Unity and UE4 comparison , as you wish.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 08:45
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I dont think its fair to compare GG with Unity and UE4 as those two engines have had many years to perfect their optimization. I have compared the two engines with GG on several optimization but in terms of optimization I just dont think thats a fair comparison.

With the discussion of optimization I think its safer to explore where the actual issues are coming from. I for one think we need billboarding for the trees and other LOD stages for them. Also "character fade" would help too. Which is an AAA widely used technique that makes enemies and characters that are too far from the player to fade in and out depending on a distance the player chooses within the options.
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Cylo
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 11:20
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Quote: "You need better hardware to run GG.
"

I don't think so...

You are just telling that GG is a huge beast that can't manage anything.
I can run GTA V at max (and many other triple A staying aroung 60fps) and you are telling me that I need to upgrade everything just to run GEM WORLD in GG. I hope you are just kidding.
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Cylo
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 11:26 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 12:24
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Quote: "You were correct. Your grievances have been told countless times before, and are discussed on pretty much a daily basis around here!

GG itself just really isn't optimized enough yet to deliver blockbuster results. (I believe a lot of it involves the shaders used, but I'm no expert in such things so take that with a half grain of salt). The sliders alone are not going to "optimize" any game, although some will affect performance. Try turning off bloom, that seems to have the greatest impact currently. I had never tried "Gem World" before. Thanks for pointing it out! I was getting between 30-40 fps on my laptop, all on highest settings except terrain (the defaults). Anyway, there is a lot of good advice around here on truly optimizing the assets you use in your game as well as level design. Sorry I can't point you to any specific threads as I haven't been saving them as I've gone along. Even the regular TGC forums are chalk full of valuable info!
"


Jerry Tremble, that's what I mean. Just repeating that the most important advice to make GameGuru better is, "Optimize the framerate". At its current state, it's not ready to do relatively big games (with only some dozens of enemies) because it will lag on most machines. And you can't tell to require an Alienware to run a ten-years-old-looking graphics in an acceptable way.
FPSC was way slighter, and even if GG is a little better looking, the optimization is far from done.
I was pledger of Reloaded, that's why I'm telling this.


P.S. The machine I'm using now has a 2294 passmark score (near the World average) and I get 30-50 fps in Gem World with low settings that fall down to 20-15 fps in many places of the environment. That's all.
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Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 12:21 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 12:26
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Which is an AAA widely used technique that makes enemies and characters that are too far from the player to fade in and out depending on a distance the player chooses within the options.

It can be done with Script changing models alpha value at run time.

I for one think we need billboarding for the trees and other LOD stages for them

You can manage this with LUA with distance checking , have some tree models object composed of two sub objects like the mesh model and the billboard sprite, than display the right one based on distance.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 13:29 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 13:29
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Quote: "You can manage this with LUA with distance checking , have some tree models object composed of two sub objects like the mesh model and the billboard sprite, than display the right one based on distance."


Or you could just name the objects correctly in the modelling program (i forget the exact naming needed right now) and set LOD in the FPE then GG will do it automagically.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 13:31
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@Mouaa : Can you send me a link to the village demo. It would be a good benchmark comparison to see how they are getting good FPS on your system and Gem World so bad. Also include the FPS you get on the opening scene of village demo so I can compare with mine as a starting point. GameGuru is pretty heavy on the GPU side, and Gem World does not offer many opportunities for culling so you will often be rendering the whole level from some angles.
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Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 15:58
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Or you could just name the objects correctly in the modelling program (i forget the exact naming needed right now) and set LOD in the FPE then GG will do it automagically.


For character or buildings, making the entity alpha fade out and disable it's script and physics calls , or use some script variable like "enabled" to not run the entire script could be more efficient perhaps than LOD ?

@LeeBamber
You just need to download the SDK and install it, then load the Village demo, drop some entities monsters on the village map and run the game.I'll try to make some screen capture tonight and post it here.
http://www.neoaxis.com/
For GG culling , i'll make another try at Gem World and see what could work ? portals object controlling a group of objects visibility? Object bounding box culling ? Shorter LOD and object fade away at some distance considered too far ? Batching of textures and same materials into an atlas ? Batching of static game objects as one object ? i don't know.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 16:23
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If you can create the village demo as an executable and maybe Google Drive it to me, we can then have the exact same version to make the benchmark something we can compare side by side, thanks!

For the clipping you describe, try setting the CAMERA SETTINGS > Camera Distance to 21 when you are in TAB TAB mode in Gem World and let me know if that improves your FPS score. This was a common trick back in the day for games like Turok Dino Hunter which they disguise by adding a close fog layer. It can work on some level designs, such as Gem World, but not for games that have long view distances like a desert game.
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 17:42
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The LOD naming convention is as such.

object_LOD0
object_LOD1
object_LOD2

These 3 objects need to be in the same location and exported at the same time to x file format.

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Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 20:49 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 21:12
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@LeeBamber
This is the Village demo.
( navmesh must be build otherwise performance will drop a lot because npc are trying to use it)




I get an averag 60 fps in full screen 1920*1080 with all npc active and attacking the player simultaneously and navigating using navmesh.




I don't use Neo Axis for some reasons, but this is a good example of a small engine doing well.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 20:51
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Thanks for the shots, can you send me a link to the standalone executable so I can run it here. I presume Neoaxis license allows you to distribute the executable and demo files for free?
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Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 21:07
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The SDK is too big, you'll have to download it and install it first.

This is the download link for the modified Village Demo around 90 Megs.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/bjne4j

You'll have to dezip it under this directory :
NeoAxis install directory\Project\Bin\Data\Maps\Demos\VillageDemo
Launch MapEditor (shortcut on desktop) and load this map and run the game.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 21:39
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Am I right in supposing NeoAxis is "not capable / not allowing" you to save a standalone executable that can be run independently by an end user?
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 22:02 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 22:03
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You can publish, this is 600 Mbytes total , this is too much to upload (and i am not a super user of Neo axis to know how to configure deployment removing distributables or unecessary assets).
I'll try Gem World and see if i can find a way of getting better frame rate instead.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 22:03
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Quote: "Am I right in supposing NeoAxis is "not capable / not allowing" you to save a standalone executable that can be run independently by an end user?"


You can save as a standalone ,I used to own a licence.but it's not like GG.

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Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 22:22 Edited at: 8th Jan 2017 11:38
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For Gem World, the first issue is distant level droppping a lot the frame rate
The level needs billboards and hidding distant entities.
Mouaa
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Posted: 6th Jan 2017 22:44 Edited at: 6th Jan 2017 22:59
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The distant levels simplified for distant camera view


Running the game from the first level the frame rate is lot better



With LOD this could even be better, or portals users can place to show or hide objects groups or display a billboard instead.
This is possible to store in a database world grid the pre computed visibility of objects or use some Octree system.
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Posted: 7th Jan 2017 12:59 Edited at: 7th Jan 2017 13:03
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Is it right, 18 fps in the second picture?
It's so laggy to me, too. As I told before, I get 40-50fps and drops to 15.
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Posted: 8th Jan 2017 01:49 Edited at: 8th Jan 2017 03:28
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I think as a general rule for now on if someone complains about Game Guru's speed they should post a picture or something of there pc specs just to cut the majority of these threads out... Either you like Game guru and are willing to deal with the early development or you can wait till its released......

edit: for the neo engine that's an expensive splash screen.......
Markchapman10 is my Skype let's have some dev talk.
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Posted: 8th Jan 2017 09:10 Edited at: 8th Jan 2017 09:19
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Quote: "edit: for the neo engine that's an expensive splash screen......."


Good joke lol , this is not more expensive than Unity Pro or Unreal 4 mandatory splash screen.
If you are looking for performance, better AI, better terrain shader, better water, particles editor, better shaders and effects ... Neo Axis does the job very well and it's FREE until you need editor source code.
And a new version is on the works to introduce modern lighting and shaders.

Quote: " you can wait till its released......"


GG is no more Early Access and fully released on Steam, it's supposed to be a finished functionnal software, i don't understand your point.
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Posted: 8th Jan 2017 10:28 Edited at: 8th Jan 2017 10:34
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There is no point at all, useless post...

BTW there are people on the forum, wich uses less powerful machines than mine.
Blaming hardware is no point, where they are at least modern machines.
And everyone knows that GameGuru is still very slow and needs a lot of framerate optimization.

Unless you want to run 2000's looking graphics on Alienware to avoid complaining.
This is called "Community suggestion" and I'm giving it as a backer too.
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Posted: 8th Jan 2017 15:16 Edited at: 8th Jan 2017 17:45
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Quote: "GG is no more Early Access and fully released on Steam, it's supposed to be a finished functionnal software, i don't understand your point."

Coming out of early access does not mean its a program is fully functional and definitely not finished in software like this. Many that come out of steam go straight to V1 or Beta 1 especially if they are in continuous development. I have games like "Take On Mars" that have gone from Early access straight to Beta. There are many reasons to come out of beta like Steam does not allow DLC's for early access products for example which was a good one for something like GameGuru ... I would consider early access as Alpha builds and they usually are ..
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 9th Jan 2017 16:53
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I can confirm GameGuru is not finished yet, development continues into 2017 and beyond. It would be good to get the NeoAxix Village Demo executable so I can do a side by side for the original post question. If anyone else can provide it, that would be good, thanks!
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Posted: 13th Jan 2017 19:08 Edited at: 13th Jan 2017 21:35
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@ Lee the village map m8 is included in the free version http://www.neoaxis.com/ as to fps i get around 30-40 fps with my card with a fully populated map (and my maps are pretty packed full as you guys know) was getting far less on the village map test with no npc's (see pic) the physics and vehicles tho are very good, but you'd hope so at around 600 quid a year P.s that village map is tiny in comparison to some of my maps and GG blows it away frame rate wise even on my cruddy graphics card. (full size map pic with 30+npc's etc etc)
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 11:02
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@Honkeyboy : Thanks for running the test for me The good news is that when the community votes me into the performance corner again, I have a number of optimizations in mind to get even more speed out of the engine, with n-core techniques being high on the list.
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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 11:14
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Quote: "The good news is that when the community votes me into the performance corner again"


Should performance not be an ongoing core issue?

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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 12:00
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@Belidos: Performance IS an ongoing core issue for sure. The question remains, should I postpone AI work to spend a few weeks on adding n-core to the LUA engine and multiplex the loading system? If not, when do I do those things? It's a divisive decision, which is why the voting board exists to let the community indicate what's important. You may argue X, Y and Z are core features/fixes/issues, but do you expect me to work on them simultaneously? If you do, you give me too much credit. My brain can just about process one thing at a time, and right now it's processing the Easy Building Editor.
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granada
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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 12:15
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Quote: "The question remains, should I postpone AI work to spend a few weeks on adding n-core to the LUA engine and multiplex the loading system? "


The answer is no,as there is no proper game play without proper A I.we need that first.

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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 12:17
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Quote: "You may argue X, Y and Z are core features/fixes/issues, but do you expect me to work on them simultaneously?"


Not at all, but you did say recently that core issues will be ongoing and separate to the vote, that's why i asked that question, because you mentioned us voting.

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synchromesh
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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 12:46 Edited at: 16th Jan 2017 12:48
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Quote: " The question remains, should I postpone AI work to spend a few weeks on adding n-core to the LUA engine and multiplex the loading system? "


LOL... No no no .... Lets stick to the AI plan
Loading speed can come later .. At least we know you have a plan for it ..
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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Jan 2017 13:16
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To be honest, my two biggest gripes are AI and Shaders/Light-mapping, AI is net on the list, and Preben is making great headway to make the shaders better, so i'm going to be very happy soon

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