Product Chat / FPSC Segments in Game Guru

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Teabone
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Posted: 12th Nov 2016 22:10 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:23
Hi, everyone, for the past couple years I've been working on converting the old FPSC segments into GG. I've stumbled across many issues when trying to actually use them within GG. But it seems with each new update, they become easier and easier to construct with. With less bugs involved. However there still are quite a number of issues with using them that I'm still working out.

I should also note, that the process of actually compiling the segments from FPSC from their textures and meshes and recreating the FPE files for them is incredibly tedious. Thankfully I've gone through many of the existing segments. But I may have to revisit them to properly set their heights. Since within GG the walls seem to stick half way below the ground level. I'm assuming the original models are designed to float below the the floor plain.

With the introduction of the new snapping methods, FPSC segments are starting to feel like something we can resurrect for GG. For instance, by switching to "Grid" mode you can lay out your floor segments to create the base structure. From there you select a wall and while still in Grid mode just rotate the walls as they will be forced to align with the floor layout.

I'm going to keep playing around with this and once I get all of the FPE files fixed up so everything aligns properly, I will add them all to the FPSC Collections for GG. This will allow you to create the same types of indoor structures as FPSC. This will provide an alternative solution for interior design. I have no doubts that the EBE will be a superior method for creating interiors in various ways, however this one is proving to be a viable solution.

Once We have all of the height issues sorted and the multiple floor plains working, I'll release everything and throw up a couple tutorial videos.




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Teabone
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Posted: 12th Nov 2016 22:45 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:27
Another issue I have come into connect with... the AI was working fine walking around on the segments but then, after that one test none of the characters will use the waypaths anymore. Quite peculiar. Might be a bug directly related to GG, as I have a character outside of the structure using a waypoint and he no longer walks. Has anyone encountered issues with the waypoint markers just unexpectedly stopped working?




Can you raise and lower way-points in GG? I know you could in FPSC. I forgot the short-key to do this.

EDIT: After closing and opening GG, the AI appears to work for one of the characters now. There seems to be a bug here where the AI only sometimes uses the waypaths? I'm using ai_wanderer.lua
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granada
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Posted: 12th Nov 2016 22:46
That's realy good of you ,thanks.

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Posted: 12th Nov 2016 23:00 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:28
When snapping the walls together you must either snap them on top of the edge of the flooring or on the outer-lining. Else you get uneven textures and meshes as shown in this video test. Good to see the AI working on the first floor so far.



EDIT: You no longer need to use the "Snap" mode for walls. Using "Grid" will automatically force them on top of the floor and to the edges of the floor.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 00:26 Edited at: 13th Nov 2016 00:29
Quote: "EDIT: After closing and opening GG, the AI appears to work for one of the characters now. There seems to be a bug here where the AI only sometimes uses the waypaths? I'm using ai_wanderer.lua"

I found the "ai_Wanderer.lua" script only works for one character at a time for some strange reason ?
Make another called "ai_wanderer2" ( with the required name edits ) and attach that one to another character and it works ...
However after a minute or so they get in sync and wander at exactly the same times ?
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 00:55
Oh that would explain it! Cause once I threw in the second guy that's when things started to get weird.
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 16:20
Quote: "Since within GG the walls seem to stick half way below the ground level. I'm assuming the original models are designed to float below the the floor plain."


That just means the origin point on the model is in the center of the object and not at the floor. FPSC probably just added half the height of the wall to the objects co-ords for it to sit on the floor properly as the typical origin point is in the centre of models. I imagine in GG you will have to alter the pivots to the floor position, unless the offset FPE settings now actually work.


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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 19:41 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:31
Yeah that is what I was mentioning earlier in the thread, that alterations would be needed to raise their heights from their original lowered positions in their base model., There are 100's of FPE files. So its quite tedious to alter. But if the result is any use to everyone it is something I'll pursue. This is something I intend to do regardless for personal use.

Right now I'm condensing all of the meshes, textures and FPS files into lesser folders and keeping them in a collective list:

Ceilings
Floors
Gantries
Obstacles
Platforms
Stairs
Walls

Because in FPSC the files are all over the place in many different folders and paths. Some of the files even share the same name. I may keep each list of folders within specific themes. For instance FPSC WWII would contain the above list and maybe SC-FI would contain a similar list. But now have all themes within the same list as it be too much work renaming them all to include an indications of each theme/pack.

I'm also reconstructing the folder structure to make it easier to transition into a future Expansion DLC if TGC is interested. So by minimizing the amount of folders and avoiding using the meshbank and texturebank folders and keeping everything somewhat together it will be easier to pack in different directories under different parent folder names.
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 21:42 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:32
I've created a modified height in hopes to fix this issue but they still reference their base height when using different snapping methods. They start to go all crazy when trying to snap, jumping between the modified height to the original height referenced in the X file. This is unfortunate as you cant just simply place a wall on the floor... it automatically falls through it if grid snapping is enabled, ignoring the defaultheight modification in the FPE settings.

The reason why you absolutely do not want to hand model each structure piece together, is GG slides too much and you will never get the textures and meshes to align 100% up. It would take hours just to build a room if using the free-form positioning. Grid snapping is critical with interior design in any program.



Looks like I may have to re-position every single wall piece manually. Fun stuff

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Teabone
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 22:40 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:34
Okay so I managed to push the mesh up to the base-line in fragmotion. So no need to alter the FPE file anymore. The crafting is much, much easier now.

The ability to have smaller Grids would make GG incredibly powerful for designers. Something I've been asking for for a very long time. Because essentially the EBE wouldn't be needed if these were in place. In my opinion.

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Teabone
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 22:53 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:36
Not sure if anyone is following the progress. I tend to work on things quickly and rapidly. Multiple floor test is a success!

Only achievable when switching to "Grid" mode and then pressing "Page-Up". While the height is a bit higher than the top of the walls, I'll have to see what I can do about creating those ceiling tiles to close the gaps. So I think that will be my next step.

Also the wall type I'm currently testing with is not the best representation for multiple floors since it has feet at the end with grass. In my next test i should have a better more simple wall type.



Currently working with 1,094 files (WWII Stock). So I won't be releasing them yet until I've put together an easier to use file structure. With less files but the same amount of variety to choose from.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 22:55
Quote: "I've been asking for for a very long time. Because essentially the EBE wouldn't be needed if these were in place."

I hear this but don't get it ?

Would we not need segment packs to buy like before ?
Would we not be relying on someone to make them like before ?

The whole idea of the EBE means we can make and texture our own kit without the knowledge of being a modeller .
Perhaps I'm missing something but to me they are two different things ?
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Posted: 13th Nov 2016 23:02 Edited at: 13th Nov 2016 23:05
I'm pretty much bringing back what FPSC had. You just grab the segments and paint them on the ground. With different grid modes it be just as easy as any other program out there. Currently its only complex because we are limited with the grid.

We have 100's of FPSC segments to choose from.

Also with a basic wall, ceiling and floor model we can have interchanging textures for them. If people wish to use custom ones.
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Posted: 14th Nov 2016 00:39 Edited at: 14th Nov 2016 00:44
I have most of the Floors done from the WWII FPSC pack... took a couple hours though:



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Teabone
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Posted: 14th Nov 2016 01:55 Edited at: 14th Nov 2016 05:12
Jumping to different themes -- here is how the Modern Day Segment pack is turning out:

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devlin
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Posted: 14th Nov 2016 04:23
this is looking great
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Posted: 14th Nov 2016 17:11
I really like that! Thanks for putting in so much time and effort!
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Posted: 14th Nov 2016 22:59
Changing the original x files is the best way to go really. Although it may be done faster using DB. I would imagine the segments used for GG are DBO files. If so, it could be possible to use DB to load them up, change the pivot point and then save them. Been many years since I used DB, but pretty sure you can do that. If so the process could be automated far more easily


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granada
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Posted: 14th Nov 2016 23:31
You do a lot of work Teabone,allways interesting watching your work.

Dave
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Teabone
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Posted: 15th Nov 2016 09:23
Thanks guys!

In the video below it shows how the FPSC Segment process is going and how it can currently be used:

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Posted: 15th Nov 2016 10:02
Assuming the floor pieces are 100x100, if you offset the origin point of the wall pieces by 50 units on either the X or Y axis in a modelling program (i say X or Y because it depends on the orientation of the model you'll have to try both to see which is better), you will be able to use the grid mode and it will sit on top of the floor model. The reason it falls through the floor is because gameguru only stacks models if their origin points intersect, it's not based on the model but the origin point of the model.

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Posted: 15th Nov 2016 11:00
I think Entity Workshop V2 might help with.

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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 07:32 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 11:52
Say I do shift the origin points of walls to the far right or left this would allow for the grid option to still be maintained for walls and all that would be required from the users' side is to press the rotate button. Rather than using "snap" they could use "grid". This might be what you are suggesting? I may have to consider it. Though I'll have to modify the origin height of the ceilings so they dont clip and work seamlessly with the grid. Since if walls set properly on floors it means they will be raised in height by the same height as the floors are off the ground.

There'sa strange issue where the outside light seems to be bleeding in to the ceiling and walls. We'll see what happens I guess the more I work on fixing the origin points of the walls and ceilings.
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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 08:08 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 08:09
Yeah that sounds like what i was talking about.

If you put the wall entity into a modelling program alongside a floor piece, the wall should be lined up where you expect it to be on the floor piece, with its origin point resting on top of the floor model directly above the floor pieces origin point. Then all you will need to do in gameguru is turn on grid mode, and rotate. If the model still clips at the bottom then just hit the enter key while its on the cursor over the location it needs to be placed and it will switch to stack mode.



Most segments should work perfectly fine in GameGuru, they just need a few adjustments to get their origins right, we just need a paint segment option and we're good to go.

As to the light bleeding through, that's more than likely because the ceilings and walls are too thin for the light mapper, in GameGuru walls and ceilings need a thickness of (in blender units, don't know about other sofwtare) 10 for the lightmapper to recognize them as able to block light.

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Teabone
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 08:13 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 08:21
Your advice worked wonders! Thanks



I'll have to see what to do with the ceilings and 2nd floor "floors". Because I am seeing the walls sticking up by a pixel above the 2nd floor "floors" even with them being placed on top of the ceiling titles.
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Teabone
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 08:23 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 08:33
Quote: "As to the light bleeding through, that's more than likely because the ceilings and walls are too thin for the light mapper, in GameGuru walls and ceilings need a thickness of (in blender units, don't know about other software) 10 for the lightmapper to recognize them as able to block light."


I'll test thickening up the ceilings and see what happens. Fragmotion has been a good solution for editing existing X files without having to go through anything heavy in Blender or 3DsMax (of which I have both).


A quick two floor test:
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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 08:39 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 08:42
Glad to help. To be honest i've been planning to do this myself for ages, but i'm just too lazy to get it started, it's a lot of work, so i'm glad someone else is doing it lol

The inly issue i can think of with segments in gameguru is the walls will overlap in the corners, but there's not much we can do about that short of having two models for each wall type, with one of them being short of the corner at each end, and alternating them when placing them around corners.

As to stacking more levels, once you have the ceiling piece in place, they should automatically stack on top of it making another level.

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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 08:54 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 08:54
This is proving to be quite more challenging than I originally thought. Now the 2nd level walls seem to overlap the 2nd floor tiles. Even with a ceiling title below the 2nd floor "floor" tiles. So we have the floors slightly smaller in height than the 1st level. hmm

Not sure why we got rid of the "*.FPS" file support in GG
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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 09:04
Where is the origin point of the ceiling pieces?

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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 09:08 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 09:12
ah that might be the problem. The ceilings pieces are by default from FPSC to rest slightly below the ground level. So that when you raise them up they sit below the floor titles.I guess I should just assign them the same mesh as the floor meshes and see what happens.

EDIT: I just tried to use the floor title and that did fix problems that the ceiling mesh file was creating... however it won't allow me to stack. The grid mode just places them inside each other rather than on top. Additionally the walls still seem to partly go through the floor on the 2nd level.
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Belidos
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 09:22
When you have them on the cursor inside each other, have you tried pressing your enter key? That should make them jump up a level.

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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 16:05
How does AI react on that / Inside?
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 16:31 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 17:02
@Teabone

You realise this is Exactly what the EBE is don't you .... And you can paint them on the ground, Snap in ceilings, change textures on the fly etc .. I don't want to put you off but it looks more like the EBE with every video And I don't want you saying " All this work and nobody told me "
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 16:39
I find it odd that you are investing so much time in converting something that will inevitably replaced by an in-engine solution.
Why not wait for the EBE and then convert/add things it might be missing or are otherwise useful addons to its features?

I mean, you're a free man and can do what you want but I also have been following your tests and conversions for GG with interest...this however seems to be a waste of time to me. Maybe you have another perspective on this that I don't yet understand?



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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 22:37 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 23:53
Quote: "How does AI react on that / Inside?"


So far so good. Haven't tried 2nd floor yet. AI navigations still may needing fixing for that. I find out tonight.

Quote: "Why not wait for the EBE and then convert/add things it might be missing or are otherwise useful addons to its features?"


Because there is far too much uncertainly of when that may be. If/when the EBE comes out, we can see how we can improve it, or hopefully it works flawlessly without the need for anything extra. I would to start working on my game's indoor levels now, rather than tomorrow. If by when EBE comes out and works out great, I will migrate the project to it.
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Posted: 16th Nov 2016 23:58 Edited at: 16th Nov 2016 23:59
Quote: "You realise this is Exactly what the EBE is don't you"


The EBE appears to do pattern painting on flat structure meshes. Rather than anything detailed. In the current examples I'm using, I'm using flat meshes for the most part but there are some very complex ones that have lips, bevels, inclines, extrusions and etc. In FPSC Segments quite a lot of them are not just flat repeatable textures on flat surfaces. But have a lot of complexities involved.

However I've not seen the EBE in its present state. So I can't really judge it till then.
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 00:04
Quote: " there are some very complex ones that have lips, bevels, inclines, extrusions and etc. In FPSC Segments quite a lot of them are not just flat repeatable textures on flat surfaces. But have a lot of complexities involved."

Ok I understand a little more the reasoning behind it now
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 02:08 Edited at: 17th Nov 2016 02:38
I am interesting in seeing what Lee brings with the EBE. I've not really followed it much past the initial concept videos. Not sure how it handles doors and door frames either. That's what I'm trying to get working with the old assets right now.

EDIT: I'm not sure if punch blocks even work in GG. Does anyone know if there is an FPE specific field for this? I'm using the same mesh and texture of the punch blocks from FPSC and they are not making a doorway hole in the wall as they should.
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 03:34
Punch block does not work with Game Guru.

BOTR's Segment AutoWelder for GG v2.0 does this from what I understand and generates the entity.
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 08:17
Quote: "So far so good. Haven't tried 2nd floor yet. AI navigations still may needing fixing for that. I find out tonight. "


VERY curious about that!
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 09:42 Edited at: 17th Nov 2016 09:45
Quote: "So far so good. Haven't tried 2nd floor yet. AI navigations still may needing fixing for that. I find out tonight. "


Putting AI on a second level won't be any different to putting AI on top of a model normally, they still don't work properly even if you use this segmented method unfortunately.

This method of placing pieces instead of whole models is no different really than placing one large mode, you're just doing it in pieces instead.

AI operation seems to rely on its height above the terrain, from experimenting, if you place a character higher above the terrain than the length of its lower leg it confuses the AI.

That's something that needs to be fixed when Lee updates the AI.

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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 12:27 Edited at: 17th Nov 2016 12:28
Quote: "Putting AI on a second level won't be any different to putting AI on top of a model normally, they still don't work properly even if you use this segmented method unfortunately. "

Yep it will be no different than putting AI on the Module packs from the store ...
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granada
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 13:26
Quote: "Yep it will be no different than putting AI on the Module packs from the store ..."


Bit sad after all this time . Still time will tell,great work on the Segments Teabone .

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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 15:38 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 11:55
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This is unfortunate. Will have to do another work-around then.

And yes the AI does not work on 2nd floor because GG's AI is severely behind. relies on the proximity in height from the terrain. Even if you hide the terrain and raise it to high levels, you still have problems with characters being below the invisible terrain. I don't expect any fixes in that area till sometime in 2017. Will probably require a navmesh system.

The best we can do with interiors right now, is create a slander man clone. They had only 1 floor, barely any doors. Just finding keys, notes etc. Walking simulator.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 16:40 Edited at: 17th Nov 2016 16:41
Quote: "The best we can do with interiors is create a slander man clone. They had only 1 floor, barely any doors. Just finding keys, notes etc. Walking simulator. "

I did manage to get AI working properly on 3 different levels In my Die Glocke demo level but that was down to design and being a bit clever about it ..
There are other ideas I have tried that can at least give you illusions your on a 2nd floor ( using old gaming tricks ) but I agree better we have the AI working on any level in the first place ....I even threw Lee an idea of using and invisible " Hamster Ball " around the characters to simulate Ground level at all times no matter what height they were meaning no need for a mesh at all ...
That would even solve stairs ... But that was just a wild idea
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 16:46
What i end up doing for second levels is to have them separate on ground level, then use trigger zones on the stairs to transport to them so it seems like your heading up stairs.

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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 18:27
Quote: "I even threw Lee an idea of using and invisible " Hamster Ball " "

That did make me chuckle thinking about a enemy spinning around,very cool idea though.

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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 19:51
whoa, nice work
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 20:09
Quote: "What i end up doing for second levels is to have them separate on ground level, then use trigger zones on the stairs to transport to them so it seems like your heading up stairs."


Yep or a simple win level as you enter a lift with a loading screen to the second floor .... I think the old Die Hard game did this kind of thing
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Posted: 17th Nov 2016 23:21 Edited at: 21st Nov 2016 18:37
I think its hilarious the kinds of work-arounds we have to do to get basic things working in this engine. Creative work-arounds I must say

A small update as I progress... I've managed to solve the issue with corners by just adding an old FPSC corner piece.
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