Product Chat / GameGuru reputation on Steam Greenlight

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Unknown Nomad Studio
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 16:55
WARNING: BAD LANGUAGE USED IN CONTEXT (comment quotes)
I did my little project. Check all GameGuru games sold and all GameGuru games on Steam Greenlight. The results are maybe even worse than sold games.
I wrote short description of selling games on thread https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/216393.
So now for Greenlight games.
I want to talk about this, because I metioned 4) Why people are making jokes about my game made with it, when I upload it to Steam Greenlight?
Now there is the answer. I will list all(?) games, minus Xmas Zombie Rampage, that are on Greenlight and some comments about them. (however, that game have those comments too)
Now let's see the games.

I think this is the best of a bunch, hovewer, it still have it's flaws.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=753310501&searchtext=spirit+underneath
Now the comments:

Quote: "SupaDope® 28. srp. v 5.09 dop.
I agree, what you've done looks competent, but that engine is horrible. Slow at both loading and in game, has a tendency to crash a fair bit. It's just not a professional engine, I'm sorry.
Acuze™ [autor] 28. srp. v 5.05 dop. <<< developer
@HGI as long as you know what you're doing some really good quality games can come out of gameguru
SupaDope® 28. srp. v 5.04 dop.
GameGuru, I'm sorry but that's an instant downvote."


Now another one,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=712486847
If you look, this is what gives GameGuru bad name on Greenlight. Random houses on flat(?) terrain with random zombies for no reason.

Quote: "SupaDope® 28. čvn. v 10.45 dop.
List of red flags:

* Looks awful
* GameGuru
* GameGuru stock assets
* Pathetic description
* Zombies (or Zombi)
"

You can see here how using GameGuru is considered red flag.

Now two games from the same developer
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=768006034
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=768042354

Quote: "JibaNyarth 22. zář. v 7.16 odp.
GameGuru? Nope."

Quote: "SupaDope® 22. zář. v 9.19 odp.
Fuck GameGuru
ada_soft 22. zář. v 8.46 odp.
Fucking GameGuru..."


Another developer with two GameGuru games
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=715960108
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=727613156

Quote: "faker1089 3. čvc. v 7.34 odp.
FPS Creator (aka Game Guru) does not have dedicated server capability, only supports up to 8 people, and has mediocre performance on large maps. Nice prototype, now please go use a better game engine."


Also this developer adverts his game on different Steam Greenlight game,

and ofcourse censoring critisism. Just read comments for those games.

Another one. This game was released BEFORE GameGuru was out of early access
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=450683495
No comments critising GameGuru instead of the game.

Now worst for last:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=575295978
Prepare yourself for the best trailer and game in history of gaming development. It so... beautiful to see it. My eyes. Why other people are using other engines but GameGuru. Just look at it.
You see, it worked. If you make such a magnificent masterpiece, not even GameGuru will be critised.

I don't really want to talk about BMC Studio games. They made alot of games with GameGuru but only two of those consist of actual gameplay, not memes and FMVs.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=655102504
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=676890968&searchtext=fire+rabbit

So yeah, GameGuru doesn't have best reputation around. Not in Steam games or in Steam Greenlight. The only way how to get through is to hide GameGuru apperance, which means HUD and assets, because those thing have been exploited by shady developers.
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Belidos
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 17:20 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2016 17:21
Absolutely no point you writing that huge wall of text, everybody already knows this.

It's nothing to do with gameguru being rubbish, its actuslly not anything to do with gameguru really, its exactly the same with any of the "indie" game engines thay arent in the top five.

Its maimly because so many talentless hacks have tried to release unfinished and poorly designed games using "indie" engines that people automatically slate a game that isn't made with one of the big engines.

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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 17:53
It goes without saying that if an engine is 'easy to use' and comes with assets that you are going to see a lot of games created by non-pro creators. So you will continue to see this happening and those slating the engine will continue to regurgitate opinions based on what other have written. You will find just as many bad comments on games made in Unity where they can't blame the engine since there a lot of proven good games made in it, this stigma attached to GG however won't go away anytime soon till a larger number of decent games are created to negate the argument.

The engine needs to be better than it is now to do this of course but it will come when TGC decide to stop following a voting board full of nonsense feature requests and stop catering to the clueless....just my two cents.
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smallg
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 18:04
You should also take into account that a lot of comments come from gamers and not developers so most don't have a clue about the work involved in creating games, this is not to say they don't have a point, if a game is poor then any critism should be accepted and improved where possible.
To add to this that steam is actually one of the more active review systems out there (considering you don't actually get anything in return) so its a bad idea to release a game without a good base - just look at how game guru itself went when released on steam.

Any game worth its salt will do fine regardless of engine, its just games not made in unity or unreal will take a bit more time.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 18:17 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2016 18:46
Now look at something that's been thought out, planned well, and a developer that's put his heart and soul into his creation.
Its down to the Development more than it is GameGuru .... You can make a load of rubbish in Unity and Unreal as well you know.

The only person ever to get all his work done by "Friday" was Robinson Crusoe..
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Bolt Action Gaming
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 18:50
In before the lockdown LOL

... I find it interesting that you quoted 'supadope' in 3/5 of your quotes.
So either A) this user is you
or B ) It's a different user who hates game guru and goes from game to game displaying his hate.

Either way, it's hardly what one could call unbiased criticism.

That said, are there huge, glaring holes in Game Guru? I think we've established that. What good does this thread bring to that discussion? None - it's just spiteful and petty, tbh.
granada
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 18:51
Quote: "Its maimly because so many talentless hacks have tried to release unfinished and poorly designed games using "indie" engines that people automatically slate a game that isn't made with one of the big engines."


I think the answer is here ,

Dave
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Unknown Nomad Studio
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 19:10
I'm not supadope, so yes, it's likely
Quote: "a different user who hates game guru and goes from game to game displaying his hate."

And I know that all engines have good and bad games.
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lordjulian
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 19:17 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2016 19:25
This is one reason why I am going to try to make my game unique - unrecognisable as a GameGuru game. Hopefully, most users won't spot that it was made in GameGuru. Custom menu screens, loading screens, HUDs, sounds, music and entities. Maybe even terrain and skyboxes. Unfortunately, I'm not talented enough to make all the assets custom but I'll do as much as I can. The downside is that TGC won't get an advert on my game but if I make £1M I'll give them 1% (as if that's gonna happen!).

@Rolfy - I am part of the reason for the EBE being at the top of the list. I put my voting slider up to max. I consider this a key feature. Someone with your modelling and art skills probably think it is unnecessary but for less talented people like me the EBE will enable us to realise our vision at least up to a point. Although I don't agree with the positions of some features in the voting board, I still think it's a good idea.
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Teabone
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 19:26 Edited at: 4th Oct 2016 15:51
Game Guru needs to get rid of "the easy game maker" tagline.
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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 19:39
Quote: " I am part of the reason for the EBE being at the top of the list. I put my voting slider up to max. "
I can relate to what your saying, personally I have zero interest in the EBE but that may change once it is more complete and I gat to play with it some more. It isn't all the feature requests on the voting board as some are really worthwhile, I just feel there is an overlap with many that should be bundled to make 'em more appealing to vote for and some are core necessities that shouldn't be voted on but implemented right away. Only additional features not at the core of a decent working product should be a voting item.
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science boy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 20:10
agreed core essentials should be sorted out before extras,

lighting and fully functioning shadows
x11
tree batching and other speed ups
lua unleashed ai commands etc.
shaders and fx

then
ebe
ccreator
etc etc

the order the voting system is is ridiculous really, running before walking springs to mind, i really dont begrudge people with ebe. but ebe and its timing is crucial to funds and getting more users, instead of 6 - 8 months of building it could of been lighting ,x11 more lua coding ai etc to speed up and get it looking really good.

the other day i looked at a video of old when gg was reloaded and i had a video of the world, and then tgc took something away for laptop performance and the entire engine looks rubbish after. i am not sure what it was, but the shadows and graphics looked absolutley brilliant, then they took something out for spectrum users and its about 60 times worse. i will hapilly put up the before and after videos if anyone is interested.

anyway my point being they really needed to be x11 ai and lighting etc before ebe etc. and this could of got a lot more votes up on steam and more customers, etc. so the voters could in effect cause a downfall for this product and cause its end. so i really really really hope they remove the vote. actually regain sanity and do it right
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3com
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 20:28
Quote: "but for less talented people like me the EBE will enable us to realise our vision at least up to a point."

That's the only reason I think EBE should comes into the equation.
I personally not a fan, at least until you are able to save your build.

Voting board could be a good idea, however many features should be considered as default, should have their own priorities, and not rely on some votes.

Voting system gives tools to all those untalented people, for releasing unfinishes and poorly designed games via steam.
Firts TGC move about don't giving chance to releases games, via non standalone, non save/load, non menues, etc, features, was a nice point, however comes many people demanding those features, and TGC was force to add those features, now that's the final result, negative / unjust / undeserved reviews.

Anyway I don't trust in steam people reviews.
As player you can tell me about gameplay, quality of the objects, performance, etc, but not about development, the engine used, code, etc, I will take seriously your criticisms, if you are a game developer experienced, because then and only then, you are aware and knowledgeable about the hours and effort I spent on that game, otherwise it's just you an amateur with no experience developing, launching no reason to criticize freely, without any kind of basis garante, for this reason not interest me, your opinion.

My two cents.

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OldPMan
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2016 20:32 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2016 20:36
I'm really funny ! Well, what is the quality of the game, such an attitude and comments, this is not surprising.
And I am more than sure that this "SupaDope" specifically looking for bad projects and used foul language. I think some people have a mental illness, it is when he simply need someone to humiliate or make someone ill.
These harsh comments should not be regarded as something that can affect the reputation of Game-Guru.
I agree that GG still have shortcomings, but Lee in a big progress with the latest update. Considering that Lee adheres to its road map to the next is very simple to learn the game engine - he succesed ! The fact that it is so easy to make a game with the Game-Guru in that SteamGreenlight come so ill-conceived and non designed the game.
Not what is there to be surprised. As I said, what kind of games, and such comments.

Even very good in quality games, there will be people who exclusively from harm or worthlessness will leave a bad comment.

I am sure that, with sufficient imagination and standard media can be a very exciting game. What would you do something you need to make an effort ...

And on the EBE. I believe that he could, would be useful to many, but there are really a lot of things that in my opinion was worth, would do before writing EBE. But I'm not a developer or manager, this is only my opinion.

I personally want to thank Lee, for his hard work over the engine Game-Guru.
Sorry for my English, not my native language.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 4th Oct 2016 04:35
Thanks for the thanks Sometimes I need cheering up!

In terms of the EBE being disgracefully at the top, the voting board is driven by the pure power of democracy. and I am totally blameless on this occasion Maybe after a few years, we'ill try the power of totalitarianism and outright commercialism, but for now I am happy to give the community a chance to direct development. After all, this is a game maker for everyone here, is it not?

Always happy to hear about voting board reform however. Perhaps a system where your vote is cancelled after 90 days, so only fresh and persistent ideas remain at the top, and the bulk of casual requests sink along with any enthusiasm for it. Not sure what the negative aspects of that plan might be, but it's one idea of many that might address the issue of 'popularity vs importance'. Feedback welcome!
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Teabone
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Posted: 4th Oct 2016 05:10 Edited at: 4th Oct 2016 05:19
Don't worry Lee. This video explains it

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MooKai
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Posted: 4th Oct 2016 09:47
Teabone, some things you wrote are not true.

- I respect the community here and TGC
- how can you know that I did all that for money?
- I have a license for all content (photos, music etc.) I'm using for ingame and promo activities.
- I'm fixing, editing, modify the game since that time.
- I joined the community before GG was on steam, I was one of the backers.

So please don't make false statements. Thank you.


The game has been greenlit.
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DVader
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Posted: 4th Oct 2016 15:15
There are many people who follow different youtubers, who tend to mimic their opinions. So if they see a bad review and hear what engine it is in, will instantly decide the engine is the issue. Unity has a bad rep with many as well for similar reasons, although as stated there have been many good games with it. I blame the youtubers in many ways for this as they normally push this as part of the reason the game is bad.

I think part of the problem to date is that most GG games I have seen released have not had the care and attention needed. Now I realise anyone who has put a game out may have a different opinion, but let me explain. I've been using GG since it was released. I was a gold backer and so have been using it for quite some time now. I have something like 1600 hours logged in Steam and obviously I put in a LOT of time before that. Even after all that time put in, I don't yet feel I could release a game for money, not to the standards I would want. The GG assets used in these badly reviewed games, if spotted in any other games, may well get your game voted down instantly as an asset flip. I don't agree with that, I think many people don't actually understand what the term asset flip really means. A practically full game, bought and then sold on with almost zero change. Many see media they recognise and shout ASSET FLIP at the top of their voices.

GG is getting better bit by bit. I too remember when the engine changed and looked graphically worse. It was mostly the terrain, which in old GG games looked pretty nice, but in modern ones normally looks tiled and glitchy. The only issue with the terrain's looks in the old version for me, was the vast difference in look between low/medium and high, they looked like different planets! What was needed was to get them at least looking the same but lower quality. Instead the current approach was taken and we now have inferior looking terrains.

There's no stopping people releasing GG games before they are properly tested and optimised. All we can do is strive to do better when we decide the time is ripe to release our own masterpiece For me, I would say my ideas are too big for GG and I have always come to a point where I just don't think it will be possible to continue without the game becoming too slow to play. So, often I amuse myself with small projects to try things that are a little different like my playable arcade game I made earlier in the year and various other projects. I hope that eventually, if I ever make a game, I will have plenty of little features to add in to make it more impressive. So my time isn't all wasted, at least I like to think so

Every time I see a new GG game and it is terrible, I cringe and think that's more fuel for the fire... I really, really look forward to seeing a GG game that is positively reviewed and has some credible compelling gameplay! I think one area that is also negelected is testing. When making a game, I test a lot. Probably too much very often. Still, even though I make sure there's no obvious bugs and I can't break things. After I run around the entire map and make sure there are no floating objects. After I test the game mechanics and difficulty, I will be biased. After playing any game for many, many hours you will tend to feel it is better than it actually is. You will also get so good at it you don't realise others may not have a clue what to do or find it way too difficult. You will in fact may be really surprised at those bad reviews and think they are unfair. Getting a few testers to play it and express their opinions would probably be of huge benefit to avoid the blinkers you didn't realise you were wearing! You will probably find bugs you didn't even consider were possible when you let other people loose on it

I think many of these games would have benefited from a few months in a proper testing process. Especially on PC. If your making a console game you don't have to worry about different specs causing potential problems with your game, but on PC that is quite different. Also, remember we here will always be more tolerant than the general public, as we know what is involved in making it, or at least know how hard it can be. Work will generally be encouraged here rather than derided. Don't think a list of positive comments from us on a WIP thread means your game is ready for release! We can be biased as well!

I know I will give positive comment on anything that is impressive for GG. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be appreciated by general gamers. The're spoilt with all the AAA games out there in the main, they won't be impressed by the same things. When you see some of the incredible looking games out there, it's not surprising really. Mafia II, getting on now, still looks great to me, GG would have a struggle getting close. Gamers, however have moved on to even better looking titles. It's a fast paced industry with the big boys throwing a lot of money into projects, film budgets. Hard to compete with that, better to go a different route, despite your hankerings to make the next Elder Scrolls or Shenmue


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Teabone
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Posted: 4th Oct 2016 15:53 Edited at: 4th Oct 2016 15:54
Quote: "Teabone, some things you wrote are not true."


My comments were definitely not about you. It was a newcomer to the community at the time. Either way I've removed my post in case anyone else gets offended.
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MooKai
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Posted: 4th Oct 2016 17:40
Ok, then sorry for the misunderstanding.
Have a good day.
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Wolf
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Posted: 7th Oct 2016 04:58 Edited at: 7th Oct 2016 05:12
I think this is great! It was also with FPSCreator. Those who have written GG off as terrible will be twice as surprised once you deliver a good game made with it.

Personally, I have always enjoyed people exclaiming that "they can't believe its FPSC"" when I presented a project and Bugsy had someone argue with him that his game had to be made in unity because it was too good for Fpscreator. (That guy insisted even after Bugsy told him that he actually made the game.)

You can open thread after thread about this and it won't change. The only fault I can see here is that GG didn't start up with some really great demo's! (maybe even with assets that wheren't in the package.) If we had a showcase of a few more levels like rolfys "galaxy seed", those heart and soulless greenlight uploads wouldn't harm GG's reputation as much. That doesnt happen if you use unreal engine...people'll expect it to look good.

Look, its an easy engine... you'll get talentless hacks and desperate or plain greedy people who smell money, throw a bunch of assets together and put it on greenlight. It easiest with game guru. Most players will then fault the engine. Some of them are right. Comparatively, Game Guru is not a good engine. Its also not a professional engine (I keep hearing this adjective associated with game engines...professional... )..its clearly a hobbyist tool. Some call it a toy! But hey, so are the other engines as long as you don't make a medical visualisation with it. So! Professional can stay where it belongs...between 9 and 5 at places where most people rather not be. Ahem! Where was I...?


Ah yes! Remember when I was talking about untalented people and greed? Most to all of the games you have linked to all fit in the dictionary defintion of that. I'd not be so hard if it where work in progress on a forum somewhere but if someone actually puts this kind of trash on Greenlight and expects praise and money for it, he deserves all the criticism that is coming.

I'd usually just lock this because we had a similar thread up recently and there is a ton of swearing in it...but Lee has posted an he seems to roll with it so I will do too.



-Wolf
Teabone
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Posted: 7th Oct 2016 05:48
Quote: "someone argue with him that his game had to be made in unity because it was too good for Fpscreator. (That guy insisted even after Bugsy told him that he actually made the game.)"


i remember seeing an argument like that on his game in the Youtube comments. I thought it was hilarious. Pretty much complimenting.
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JackalHead
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Posted: 10th Oct 2016 02:45
If your a coder, sure you can make a good game with GG, if your a coder... A none coder however is stuck with buying scripts or just using the defaults which lets face it, there are not much of. Not to mention that bringing in custom animated content into GG without some third party software or lots of file fun is just a downer. As for eye candy.... There is none. No reflective mapping, particle effects etc. I like GG and have been a backer from the get go of reloaded etc, but Im not a fan boy and am not going to blow smoke ya know where. Its years later and this project at least to me, still seems like an alpha project. I cant even say its beta because it just doesn't seem like its even there yet.
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