Product Chat / Decrease or increasing the FPS on the approach to the OldPMan item.

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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 11:45
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Hi owners of "Abandoned building" or "Artist PackTwo" !
There are quite contradictory information about my set of "Abandoned building".

After a few tests.
I made a video that-be to demonstrate this.
I have a fairly weak computer now, treat with understanding to my FPS)))
Approaching the wall of the building, on my PC FPS increases.
If someone is not the case, please write here.


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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 11:50 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 11:52
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Are you wondering why?

If so it is simply that less of the wall is visible so less of the texture is being used so less data is being thrown around.

(this should be exactly the same on any PC but if another object was in the building in front of the wall you may get different results)
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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 11:55
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I get the opposite effect.

See below

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y7rsm2l0nd2gbro/FPS%20drop.avi?dl=0

My FPS drops suddenly when close to a wall.
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 11:55 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 11:56
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I just talk to a friend and he showed me a video where everything is exactly the opposite. This happens to be my model - "Abandoned building"
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 12:23
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Could it be due to lighting? i.e. in the case where the FPS decreases are there extra light sources involved?
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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 12:48
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realtime lighting, only 1 light in the building so far. I have had no other problems with lights.
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 12:49
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I got this efects with some model ago time, and it happens to me, because some normals flipped.

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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 12:57
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3com - It is interesting.
Applies only to models or texture too (wrong Normalmap) ? It's just that this model polygons are rotated properly.
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Belidos
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 15:53
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I've noticed that models made with subdivision and smoothing seem to cause issues in GG when you get close to them.

For example my swimming pool model originally had a nice smooth curved railing for the diving board, but I found that when you walked up to it the FPS would drop dramatically, you back away and it goes back up. I got rid of it and put a more low poly railing in and it doesn't do it any more.

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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:03
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It sounds like GG's dodgy collision with complex objects. It has done this since forever and although pointed out several times never addressed. The default gargoyle object does it when collision is set to complex. It used to do it by default, but I think the collision type was changed to box to fix it. Basically if you want the best collision you will get this on a lot of objects, otherwise you have to go with a more basic collision type. It would be nice to get better collision than available at the moment. There are several store objects that I have noticed suffer with the same issue and makes them fairly useless Basically GG's collision can't handle odd shapes at all and as said, been as bad for years.


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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:29 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 19:31
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Hi DVader , Belidos!
Yes, I met with a problem when polygonal collission, but in this case it is not a problem.
Because one and the same object is used on different computers and get completely the opposite result, and Physics bar in the statistics panel does not confirm this.
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:30
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It's so bad on my maps I have to use a invisible wall to keep player away from the objects.
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:32
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Why would a flat wall need a complex mesh? It should be 2 triangles!
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:34
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Hi 25-WATTS !
You are confronted with this problem is to "Abandoned building" or with other objects too?
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:36
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Hi AmenMoses !

The wall of this object has a look like this

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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:39 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 19:39
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Btw, physics is handled by the Bullet engine which is an industry standard and used in many other engines, I highly doubt GG would not also be using the Bullet collision system so if there is problem in GG with this sort of thing (how that would manifest in the case of a flat wall is a bit of a puzzle in itself) then it would be a problem elsewhere as well.

Email Lee and point him at these videos, I'm sure he would be interested in finding out what is going on.
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:39
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In the walls of the object - 2782 triangle.
Object have been tested, they have no unacceptable proportions (very long and narrow triangles)
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:50
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In the video the visible portion of the wall is all that the engine should be concerned with and that should be a simple plane made up of 2 triangles. The most the engine should be doing in this case (especially where the player is stationary) is texture mapping and lighting that plane so unless the normal map is some really huge resolution then the FPS should not be dropping, So what the first video shows is what I would expect, i.e. an increasing FPS, the opposite case is hard to explain but if we could figure out what is the difference between the two cases then that might help figure out why it is happening.
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:50
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I wonder. Real time ambient occlusion affects normal maps?
Perhaps in this case?
By this I do not use a beta version and I do not use Real time ambient occlusion. I FPS increases when approaching the wall, while the opposite Tarkus1971 all, it uses Real time ambient occlusion, he reduced FPS, and rolls Render bar in the statistics panel.
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:52
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I assume the 2782 includes all windows, doors, edges and front and back faces!
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:56
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All the above in the image above. That's what it is 2782 triangles.
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:58
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The reverse side is no physical triangles. Just use cullmode = 1
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:12
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Hi OldPman

Just did a test run of your Abandoned buildings and I get the FPS to go up by 10% when looking at the wall.
I've been with GG for 12 months and the slow down next to some items has always been a problem - 30 fps can drop to 5 FPS.
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:16
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25-WATTS , do you use Real time ambient occlusion ?
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:27
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Hi OldPman

Just tested with ambient occlusion on and yes now get a drop from 180FPS to 115FPS.
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DVader
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:33
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I tried this out with another of your buildings and noticed with bloom on and so with SAO enabled the speed drops a lot (50%) when getting close to the object. So it seems the conflicting reports may be down to this setting. With bloom off, the same building has no real issues. I think the new SAO shader is probably the cause. Makes sense, as the closer you get the more detailed the effect.


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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:34
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Not in general, but it is approaching the wall you get a decrease FPS?
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:40
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Excellent. Now I understand that the problem that is likely to affect the SAO normalmap, and applies to the occlusion normalmap texture.
Hooray! we identified the cause)))
Perhaps this is due to the fact that the normal map of a large size-2048x2048.
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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:42
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Thank you very much guys.
I will try tomorrow to install Beta and check out all I can.
You really helped.
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:43 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 20:48
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Yes, the closer you get the slower it becomes. I'm using your Prefab001 wall object from the wooden construction pack. Turn off Bloom and the fps jumps back instantly.
Edit - lol, 2 more posts while I was putting the pics together Anyway I see you have found the problem. SAO is a little hoggy at times. I would defo reduce your normal maps down, you can normally get away with half your diffuse size quite easily. Although as SAO can work even on lowest settings I'm not sure the normal maps are used for it?


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OldPMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 20:50 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 20:50
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Thank DVader.
Now we know that this SAO.
Great help from all of you guys.

Best Regards, OldPMan .
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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 18:57
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thats great that the cause is now found, hope Lee can sort this out for us.
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 19:02 Edited at: 6th Jun 2016 19:09
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Seems to be the bloom is slowing things right up, SAO is ok, same FPS on or off, with bloom on mine drops from 60fps to 29fps, with vsync on.

Of course bloom must be on for SAO to work, hence the slowdown.
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 19:05
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The only solution would be to remove SAO from the current post process shader. If this is something many of you want to see, please let me know and I will create an 'alternative' post process shader which removes these extra passes and increase your performance. It was something I was considering adding in any event, but wanted to see real-world performance values from the SAO technique as its not super expensive on higher end cards, but might really hurt those on mid-range cards.
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 19:11 Edited at: 6th Jun 2016 19:12
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Is there any way of reducing passes, or if there is a workaround, or anyway to "occlude" the SAO effect at distance? Like a fadeout. As distant objects would not need SAO.
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 19:17
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Or perhaps only have SAO on when terrain or entity settings on 'highest' or new 'ultra'. It might be nice to have a placeholder for more effects that higher end cards can use starting with SAO?
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 19:30
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I can use Post-effects, even SAO yet, anyway agree this function should exists 4 those guy, than can to take profit.
Just those features should be optional like heretofore.

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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 19:46
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Quote: "The only solution would be to remove SAO from the current post process shader. If this is something many of you want to see, please let me know and I will create an 'alternative' post process shader which removes these extra passes and increase your performance."
Definitely , I know some don't care for bloom but for myself I use it a lot. Particularly with illuminated entities, without bloom you just get a strip of full bright texture where lights are but with bloom you get a little glow added.
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 21:47 Edited at: 6th Jun 2016 21:47
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Quote: "The only solution would be to remove SAO from the current post process shader"


Oh I hope not ... It really makes the levels and models look better
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 22:06 Edited at: 6th Jun 2016 22:24
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Quote: "The only solution would be to remove SAO from the current post process shader"

Quote: "
Oh I hope not ... It really makes the levels and models look better"


You really need to finish what was said to keep things in context so we don't get a slew of comments agreeing.

Quote: "please let me know and I will create an 'alternative' post process shader "


SAO should be its own post process with it's own on/off, not tied into another that is absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't see why it cant be enabled by the SAO intensity slider being greater than '0' which switches to an alternative post process shader for those with systems that can handle it, even simply uncouple it from the bloom, enabling with the bloom slider just seems daft to me and unnecessary.
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Belidos
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Posted: 6th Jun 2016 22:16 Edited at: 7th Jun 2016 08:41
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Quote: "Seems to be the bloom is slowing things right up, SAO is ok, same FPS on or off, with bloom on mine drops from 60fps to 29fps, with vsync on.

Of course bloom must be on for SAO to work, hence the slowdown. "


Yup, this is what i'm seeing too, I assume that SO is in the same process as bloom and the two combined is causing the slow down. It would be great if they were separate processes as I use bloom for _I textures

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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 01:45 Edited at: 7th Jun 2016 02:06
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Quote: "Now I understand that the problem that is likely to affect the SAO normalmap, and applies to the occlusion normalmap texture."


In general I would think you should use geometry normals and not normal map for SSAO. It may be possible to include normal map as well as geometry and I suspect this may be the cause of such low fps drops if it is included in the shader. I have taken a quick look at the shader and it is too long and complex for me to wrap my tiny brain around so I can't even say if normal map is included, if so then probably a reason for it to written into the post-bloom.fx but I have no idea why. From what I can understand of the shader there are a lot of hacks and tweaks to compensate somewhat for what is indeed fps hogging functions. But I gave up looking for any reference to normal map inclusion.

Edit* All I really see is 'float3 reconstructCSFaceNormal(float3 C)' which I believe is geometry surface normal calculations. I could be completely wrong but unless a shader guru (none I know of around here, except Mark Blosser, who wrote the original shader) then I can only reckon there is no normal map calculations included.
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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 01:56
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Quote: "I assume that SO is in the same process as bloom and the two combined is causing the slow down"

The bloom and SAO stuff are all in the same shader, you are correct.
Quote: "SAO should be its own post process with it's own on/off, not tied into another that is absolutely nothing to do with it."

I agree having as a separate one that can be enabled with or without bloom would be better. It's nice having SAO work on lowest settings as it gives a better visual overall, so only having it on higher settings would not appeal to me.


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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 08:11
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Yes SAO, should be seperate from bloom, as each process has its merits, if i could just use sao i would. Lets hope lee can get this working. better than switching it out altogether. DX11 might be the way to go soon maybe. better, lights, shadows, flashlight etc.
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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 20:30
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I dropped SAO out of the shader completely and still get a large FPS drop. I then dropped Bloom out completely ... and still get a large FPS drop. There is something else going on when that bloom slider moves from 0 other than enabling that post-bloom shader - maybe the public preview will give a clue. . There is no normal map referenced in the shader, but there is depth map for DOF, SAO and Motion Blur.

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Tarkus1971
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Posted: 16th Jun 2016 14:18
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My bloom is ok, SAO kills my FPS if close to a wall, door or any large entity. And on a very busy level shadows kill FPS also. Hope there could be a way to fade out shadows when in fog, IE: if the fog is close to player don't render shadows say 200 units and beyond, inside the fog from player position. Might help FPS a bit.
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