Product Chat / Displacement Map?

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imothep85
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Posted: 24th May 2016 12:26
it is possibel to ADD< this really important feature in GG??

Diasplacement maps & normal maps



Pirate Myke
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Posted: 24th May 2016 14:04 Edited at: 24th May 2016 14:04
Normal maps are already used, But for the shader to work, the object must be a single textured object. Also the entity shader must be set to highest. The texture normal must have this naming format YourFileName_N.extension of format used
x is right and y is down in Game Guru.

Displacement maps not yet.
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imothep85
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Posted: 24th May 2016 14:20 Edited at: 24th May 2016 14:21
so a rock object with a simple texture works? i mean the diffuse texture and normal map texture?
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 24th May 2016 14:39
Yes you will need a diffuse, normal, and specular for the best effect.
texture_d.dds
texture_n.dds
texture_s.dds
Optional Maps:
texture_o.dds -- Occlusion map for baking light maps (present to all now), Not needed for real time lighting. (in the upcoming update)
texture_i.dds -- for illumination. If you have something you want to glow on the object.

Options you can bake your occlusion to the diffuse texture if you know where your lighting direction will be coming from. This will help show the detail you are looking for.
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Belidos
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Posted: 24th May 2016 15:09
As Myke said, we already have normal maps.

Displacement maps, do any game engines actually use them? I was under the impression that displacement maps were for use inside 3d modelling programs because they physically change the geometry of the object, kind of just another way of modelling to the shape of the object in the texture without having to manually tug and stretch vertices yourself.7


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LeeBamber
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Posted: 24th May 2016 16:32
We played with displacement mapping (and parallax mapping) in the early FPSCR prototypes, but the performance hit was pretty bad (every pixel rendered has a small ray cast attached to it), and it was not even a post process effect, this was a pixel shader effect on everything that ever got drawn. Pretty intensive stuff requiring monster graphics card so we removed it. Does anyone feel we should add the option back in at the cost of performance?
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 24th May 2016 16:47 Edited at: 24th May 2016 16:48
A really nice effect for still shots, but not very efficient for a massive scene.

Maybe a normal map setting in the FPE that we could raise or lower the bump from the start of where the existing normal map is. Giving users that don't have the capability to raise and lower it without getting to technical for them.

Maybe down the line we could get full displacement maps or Parallax normals options, when I would have to update my machine to a newer system that would be able to take advantage of this feature.
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JackalHead
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Posted: 24th May 2016 21:28
Alot of games use them now days. Most card can handle them fine. If your using an old card then stop been cheap and buy a new one. Heck you can get a nice ati card for 100 bucks. They call it tesselation.
"So let it be written; so let it be done."
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imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 09:52
EXACTLY, we call that technic "tesselation" we use also that for vfx, cinematics etc.

Belidos
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Posted: 25th May 2016 11:33
Quote: "They call it tesselation."


Ah good to know. I always thought displacement and tessellation were different, the way I heard it was displacement was using maps to physically change the geometry of a model in a 3D program and tessellation was using maps to fake changes to geometry.

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imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:09 Edited at: 25th May 2016 12:14
its the inverse, tessellation re-create polys (triangles), and displace only fakes texture volume with a greyscaled map, normal map gives fake details to a flat surface.
http://cpetry.github.io/NormalMap-Online/
Belidos
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:11
Quote: "its the inverse, tessellation re-create polys (triangles), and displace only fakes texture volume with a greyscaled map, normal map gives fake details to a flat surface."


Really? Because the Blender video tutorial I posted above clearly shows a displacement map being used to physically change the polys/tris in a blender project. Far too confusing for me, i'll stick to normal maps for now hehe.

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imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:17
well in 3ds max you ca nuse displace IN TWO ways.

1 you only use yoru texture to create a fake volume on a low poly model.
2 you can convert your displace into polys with the same texture, in that case you get REAL polys

NORMAL MAP doesn't create real surfaces
DISPLACE MAP you can convert that to polys or only simulate volume
Belidos
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:18
Ah cool, thanks for the info.

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imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:27
here its an exemple i did right now

FIRST just the displace map with a low poly model


the same BUT i converted the displace map TO POLYS
imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:29
with normal map+displace you only work with lowpolys, allways and volume is simulated by those textures, and you can also do a tessellation for better details and curves.
Wolf
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:31
The standart shaders of normal, specular and illumination mapping have been in Game Guru since day 1.

As for tesselation. Its cool and I see it getting used more and more in the latest games but still relatively rare.

Quote: "Does anyone feel we should add the option back in at the cost of performance?"


Yes and no.

Yes, its always nice to have more visual flexibility and tools to work with, there are certainly creative things we can do with it. Somewhat experienced artists can craft some real magic with it.

No because its a lot harder to do for the amateur and hits performance pretty bad. Its likely that people want to tesselate everything in an unoptimized map and then moan about the performance later on. There is also a level of "tolerance" in graphics where bad normalmaps don't always look too bad where bad displacment maps really look horrible. The artists would need to know how to handle them.



-Wolf

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imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:36 Edited at: 25th May 2016 12:43
exaclty its allways the artist behind the machine who is responsible for the quality of the differents assets, models results
thats why actual games are so good, because of those exellents artists behind that huge amount of work.
here the tessellation at work
[video=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uavLefzDuQ]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uavLefzDuQ
Belidos
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:45
Some great info here.

That kind of leads me to a question that's related to the subject, but slightly off topic, I hope you don't mind me asking.

I use blender for my models, what I have been doing up until now is making the model and adding the textures, then exporting diffuse and AO maps. Then I create the normal and specular in gimp for the whole map.

I've recently learned that I can create normal and specular maps for the actual textures, then map the textures to the model in blenders cycles renderer and add the normal and specular maps to each individual texture, then export diffuse, normal and specular as single UV maps. That way you can have different levels of secularity and normal bump on different parts of the model in the same texture.

My questions is, is this a better way to do it than I have been doing? Or is it not worth the extra effort? It seems to me it would be better because you can have shiny and non shiny parts etc without having to adjust the textures manually, but i'd value any input.

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imothep85
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Posted: 25th May 2016 12:49 Edited at: 25th May 2016 12:49
its an extra effort i don't use blender, i use 3ds max , i export the diffuses, normals, etc allways séparated for better control in a game engine.
Belidos
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Posted: 25th May 2016 13:07
Quote: "its an extra effort i don't use blender, i use 3ds max , i export the diffuses, normals, etc allways séparated for better control in a game engine."


Not sure if I explained it well.

The diffuse, normal, and specular will be separate textures, however the materials on each texture map will have their own levels. It's

like when you manually make a specular map for a door and you want the door to be matt with no shine, and the handle to be shiny metal, in a paint program you would mask the door knob and change the specular level inside the mask for it to be shiny, then invert the mask and change the specular levels to make it less shiny, but with this method in blender it does it for you, it just means you have to make specular and normal maps for all of your individual base material textures in advance and hook them up inside blender.

It's a little more work initially but once done a lot less fiddly and probably more accurate than manually editing parts of a specular map in a paint program later.

I just don't know how much of an improvement it is compared to the extra work involved, and whether it's worth it or not, I haven't really tried it yet.

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Wolf
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Posted: 25th May 2016 17:34
Whatever floats your boat to be honest.
I'd never do it that way because I am monumentally lazy but if the results are truely better, that would be an argument for doing it.

I'd just make 2 sets of textures, load them on the same model and see if its worth the effort or if you rather use the faster / easier method.



-Wolf



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DVader
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Posted: 25th May 2016 17:48
I think you need DX10 or higher to properly support hardware tessellation, so maybe when that is added we may have a chance to see it in GG. I could be wrong, but I remember tessellation being quite a thing with DX10's first push.


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JackalHead
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Posted: 26th May 2016 16:36
DX10 is been killed off by microsoft. GG needs dx11. That will be the standard until dx12
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DVader
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Posted: 27th May 2016 18:52
I realise that, I just mentioned when tessellation first came to my attention, which was DX10. Obviously if still relevant, newer versions will include the same and more.


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