Follow my great adventure... it's called "Greenlight"
Really funny people there...
Let's see what will happen with my little game "Xmas Zombie Rampage"

Maybe I should add the game to the Showcase.

It's a little zombie shooter.

Also on itch.io

I just post this here, that we can see, what happen with a GG game on Steam.
Let's call it "Case Study"

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=574146044

Take a look at the comments and pull it FAST.

No offense, but putting that on Greenlight is not the smartest move. I am not saying that to disencourage you or make you feel bad, but going big bam public with something thrown together will give you a very hard time later to do anything serious and be taken serious for that.

Trust me, been there.

Well, we will see.
This is not a weekend made game...
Aber danke.

Gern geschehen

And please re-check the license you have for the photo. Unless you havent payed 15.000 - 50.000 $ for it and signed a 20pages contract with Jess Glynnes management, you are NOT allowed to use it in any way that could deliver the slightest hint that she approved, endorsed or participated in your game. And those lawyers are mean.

Trust me, also been there

dude your not helping anyone by greenlighting, it looks rushed and as game guru is no where near complete why are you trying to damage you and gameguru further. up to you but if i had made it i would wait for x11 and definately better ai, and other stuff not even re skinned the zombies. sorry to be a downer

Thanks, but yes. I've a valid license for use the photos.
Also approved for videogames, apps, software.

I had also valid licenses for photos of Hollywood actors that actually DID voice overs in my game and was not allowed to use them in such a way.

Your license most likely covers the usage in ANY media - as you state - but only unaltered and telling whom it is showing beneath without actually promoting a product.

who said it's Jess Glynne?
only someone on greenlight.
btw. its not her.
she maybe look similar... that could confuse some people.

Ah, ok, then you are good, if its not a celebrity with good lawyers, you are off the hook

No, she is not that Jess Whoever...
First I was confused too about that greenlight comment.
But the model is someone else. And yes, I've a license for everything I use in my games.

This is in the wrong board, this doesn't really concern the product chat it is more suitable as a WIP thread.

Hm... well work in progress... ok.

I'd not lump all Game Guru projects in the same box with what you have produced there.



-Wolf

Guess you kinda paved the way on how all future GameGuru games will be received on Steam with this, way to go ' GameGuru Ambassador'. Your so called 'case study' probably killed any chance of a GG game ever being taken seriously on Greenlight...ever. With the way you are handling comments on your game this is all a joke to you .
You obviously have money to throw away if you can waste 100 bucks on a puerile exercise like this, next time you got money to burn why not buy a book or something useful, or invest in some other engine so you can destroy it for someone other than the folks around here. What the heck are you doing this for?

I strongly recommend not using licensed graphics when advertising your game on Steam. For instance your using a graphic from http://drakesfinejewellers.co.uk/gemstones-plymouth. Once you start making sales... its actually possible for you to get sued and The Game Creators will not be able to help you in that event. Since this is your sole release.

Just some helpful advice.

EDIT: Just noticed Ertlov brought this up. If you did indeed purchase usage rights for this graphic, make sure you read the full usage rights you have for it. I'm bringing this up as I know someone who got burned badly for a copyright claim of similar nature and it ultimately resulted in a cease and desist (since there were no sales).

If you have made any sales using this graphic and you honestly do not own the rights, you may be faced with serious legal actions since you seemingly have no corporate protection on your product. "ChickenPig Software" doesn't appear to have any copyright protection in itself. You also are selling this product so you have to be extra careful. This is why we bring this up. As the consequences could be very be severe. If your in the clear, fear not.

I will also like to point out that I'm personally disappointed you uploaded to Steam as an experiment. As I intended to use similar models (zombies) in a game I have been putting great effort into. Now that these models will be recognized as "Game Guru" models in a game that may be considered poor quality, everyone else who uses them will fall under great criticism.

I also find it scary that you used Steam Greenlight as a way to advertise actual payable site for a game not yet approved by Steam. While I think its great your going through this whole process for the experience of indie game developing, I think there needs to be more care taken and professionalism.

I know now that I will have to put great effort into making sure any of the games I make with GG look nothing like any other GG game and carry no GG branding or stock media. GG has been taking a big negative hit from popular Youtube let's players and online reviewers due to poorly put together GG greenlit games. I don't even need to write "no offensive" as I dont think you actually care about what negativity you may have caused for the rest of us.

For instance this is a reply to a steam user by you:



I'm from Canada by the way and am offended by your reply to the user. Your tonality is among the worst I have ever seen from a "developer" on steam. I don't see any damage control being done on your part. The discussion board on your game is a complete disaster. The nature of which you interact with your would be customers is horrid and reflects horribly on the GG community.

TGC take note.

I have now read through the discussions and comments there, and honestly, Rolfy and Teabone are even too calm, nice and friendly on this matter. This is a desaster for all GameGuru users.

I'm having the dark feeling that this was not intended to be an experiment anyway...just a quick cash grab for christmas that backfired and now you play it off as a "field study". No accusation just a feeling I have.



Eh... I think most of us are used to it from the FPSC times... but yeah. Its a low blow to game guru.



Nor should they.

I have no objective reason to lock this so I am leaving it open for everyone to behold.



-Wolf

yep ts a shocker mookie you should be ashamed of what you have done, game wise and reply to steam users wise. i thought better of you. tut tut and may you learn from this evil doing!

@Teabone
The gfx/photo is not from this website. It's a licensed photo from shutterstock.com , so I can used it, no problem.
I've a valid license for the photos I use.

"...uploaded to Steam as an experiment"
It's not an experiment, it a game I made over weeks.
The experiement is "how good or bad" it will be accepted by the users.
Btw. I like Canada, have some friends there, but this guy was... annoying

Merry Xmas & happy new YEAR!

The real problem folks are having here with this particular thread is they don't know whether to respond to it as an 'experiment' a 'work in progress' or a finished game.

Here's my thoughts on it as a 'work in progress', it is a good start though I am very surprised that as a long term user you took weeks to get so little done, unless you are only showing the least interesting areas of your game. All the same you can't blame me for that as I can only go on what I am shown.

As a finished game I can only suggest you put more time into it before trying to sell it, you won't be seeing much return on your investment as it is far from a finished game that anyone would pay for.

As an 'experiment' on Greenlight this will not be received well at all, at best it may be considered a joke and everyone will laugh, at least that was your hope......right?

Your ability to avoid answering questions and only having a real response to the question of license use on a shutterstock photo speaks volumes, I found that image way back and it only took a few seconds. You could have put that one to rest a long time ago but chose to dance around with it a little longer, as it was the only legitimate answer you really had to a bunch of legitimate questions.
If this is a 'controlled' experiment I take it this is only part of it and you got an awesome game on Greenlight which is the real effort and this one is a placebo thrown together as an example of the kind of game we 'might' expect to encounter.
Has to be said though I didn't need a crystal ball to tell me how a game like this made in any engine would be received on Steam. What gets me is how you chose GameGuru to do it, perhaps you thought it wouldn't matter as "they should be used to it after using FPSC", as Wolf declares above. I guess I may have been delusional to think that maybe GG could be different if given the chance, but I would never have dreamed of deliberately scuttling this particular ship so soon in development.

Being derisory of Steam users wont garner support from around here, some users here won't appreciate you trashing their chances of selling their game by destroying a product relationship with potential customers.

Of course you think I am blown up about nothing since GameGuru (just like FPSC) has no chance of ever being taken seriously as capable of producing a commercial worthy game, myself and others have always felt otherwise and it was an uphill battle then. I now see it is going to continue.

'work in progress' or a finished game.
It's a finished game, but it was moved to the WIP. Don't ask me.
Fixing bugs and bugs takes time, I've only a few hours after my daytime job to work on games.
The standalone was crashing and crashing, until I found out, that one of the deers were the problem.

It's a straight FPS, in a xmas winter landscape.

It's a terrible game but then again when you watch the twitch Lee talks about being able to complete full game in minutes... This is the result :p

It's a good example of how bad the game can be with zero imagination and no decent models or AI logic (plus bugs).
There's no life in anything except the zombies (which is ironic as they are dead :p

@rolfy There are still other games on steam which are made by GG and still getting good reviews, i dont think its fair to say that all games made with GG will be treated the same as any other, its just obvious when a game lacks effort (or skill) - which is probably why i personally stay away from creating full games

Yes, I think you nailed it with that Statement, smallg.
Although I am in no mood to defend Mookai for the game itself, I think he got a Little bit savaged too much here:

* "ripping people off" - well, almost anything adorned with a Santa cap on at this time of the year IS usually a rip-off,
be it Sweets/beverages/toys/ what have you - and really everybody is aware of it. One could even see the santa cap
as an outright declaration of his product in that respect.

* "Copyright" - he clearly stated early on steam that he had acquired sufficient rights on his assets, clearly showing that he had set his mind on the matter, he had never uttered something like "found it on the Internet, could download it, so it must be free". In this viéw, even if he had misunderstood what he had acquired, that'd be solely his Problem, it doesn't get better through harassing him on the matter.

* "Bad Treatment of steam "contributors" - certainly true for projecting his view of the mental agility of this guy who was furious to prove that Mookai is really another Person onto "[all] Canadians", the latter part really Needs an explicit excuse to "the Canadians", except to the direct Opponent who really made a nuisance out of himself, showing off considerable d*mbness in the course of the discussion .

What irritated me most was the accusation of "using models from the store" instead of building his own or " at least re-texturing those he acquired". If THAT is a justified Statement, then I don't know what good the stores (including -say- Arteria and the likes ) can be other than ripping off budding young developers, since obviously, although paying for the stuff, they are only "allowed" by some obscure "developers' high morale" to Show games to their immediate Family and friends at best, but never "in the wild". Not sure about individual conditions, but I doubt that acquiring a model even from the TGC shop entitles buyers to "retexture" what they bought - another "fine" Occasion to open the next Copyright discussion on a game.

Looking at the marvellous stuff that guys like rolfy or wolf and some others here are offering, I dare say it would take a lot to "make their stuff better" by retexturing, thus, "trying is dying" herer. And even between These guys, I see that all of them have their Special field in which they really excel, thus, the ability to find someone who is all of them rolled into one is most unlikely, and if only such a super-designer ( who, of course, prolly also needs to be a master in coding etc.) may attempt "greenlighting" anything, well ....


Yes, what I described IS the extreme opposite of what Mookai did, but it IS the Spirit that came out from the utterances of Mookai's two main opponents.

And, in a lighter vein, in almost every voting on GG Games on steam that I saw, at least one contibutor assigned the game to Unity, not GG . Does this mean that Unity also gets pulled into the maelstroem by each bad games made with GG ?

@ yrkoon

re skin comment i am taking was mine and it seems to of annoyed you. well it was a comment to mookia not you. so i annoyed you it seems and now you annoyed me lets keep it at that.

secondly, re skinning is easy and all you need is free art packs, and my problem is he was trying to sell this on greenlight! and he had done the produce a game in minutes, and the way he was shooting down people on steam was a bit out of line. so what about his spirit?
thirdly i have seen some of mookais work before and it looked very good. so why has he put a game up on greenlight when he and others know he can do better. i believe he was actually doing an experiment and hence the rush, and i guess he never expected it to go this route. my point being it was a silly move and could put people off anything gg. and also his replies to steamies was naughty. i have nothing against store models i use them too. but i often just make a little effort to change the textures wether it just be changing the hue ( colour scale) or adding something to it, it is a basic right to use the originals and fair play but then why not do something to make it more yours. anyone can use paint.net and change little bits. not a smarmy artist elitist attitude more a dude you have a great engine at your disposal why not get more creative. i am sick and tired of the unity and game guru. my argument was this was against a solid engine that has been around and routed, game guru is just getting off the ground and needs every positive it can get, but then i guess you just like to argue ( on a lighter note) i don't hold this against you and lets move on amicably

So there is no confusion...you can warp,bend,mess up,destroy or re-texture any of the store bought models to your hearts content for your game. The only restriction is when you try to modify and sell or give away outside of your game, if it is going in your game you can do what you want.....commercial or non commercial.

@rolfy : if that is so for everything one buys from the store, fine, that alleviates a copyright problem, but that was a secondary problem, anyway (let alone that I really think modifying your models and of some others here would be downright foolish for reasons already stated).

@science boy: you got it all wrong, starting with relating my statements to you personally and alone.
That said, the way you talk makes any further exchange of thoughts useless. I' ll leave it at that.

then i apologise to you sincerely, i am sorry i got it wrong hope you can forgive

Actually it would be absolutely necessary to make some changes to media to make it all merge and tie together in a scene where different Artists work is used. I have requested at least a surface colour/ambience control so individual objects can at least be adjusted to suit lighting properties of the most dominant entity's in your scene without having to alter the textures themselves.

I think you're being a little bit too harsh. I strongly believe that talent, hard work and vision always finds a way through eventually, and maybe one might be insulting the intelligence or judgement of Steam users by suggesting they will henceforth dismiss anything made with GameGuru. Remember, you don't need to keep the official GameGuru watermarks, loading screen or menu. If you are going to be truly original, creative and innovative then does anyone really need to know your game was made with GameGuru? Unless they were very familiar with GameGuru would they be able to spot this? If so maybe your game isn't unique enough anyway. Mookai probably has damaged our chances but you could look at it another way: Quality does find a way through and maybe this 'experiment' should serve encourage us to think big and be unique.

Are Steam users really as narrow-minded as you fear?

Rolfy, your explanations are Sound and highly valued. Maybe I did not succeed in making myself clear enough, sorry for that.

Some of the Major Flak directed at Mookai _mainly_ on steam was: "Basically, you HAVE to create all assets yourself, to possibly only keep a Minimum chance to pass. Using stock media in a game you want to sell is an offense , using acquired stuff from any store is only marginally less offensive, regardless how much you paid for them, and if you still do have the nerve to disregard this our law, you are required to retexture. " - which at least to me signalled "required retexturing needs to be massive, not a possibly a hard to notice feeble lighting and tone Adaption to make the respective model blend better with its specific game surrounding." In that respect, I'd hate to see your hell creatures in a garish glaring green or ochre JUST because someone had to prove that s/he was "capable of retexturing because s/he read that it's the law"

Yes, this is my personal reception, and there is a Chance I may be wrong, BUT: I saw this Kind of attitude directed at other GG games on steam/greenlight (admittedly, those were also not so good), let me cite one contribution, almost verbatim from Memory : "are you SO bad at modelling that you have to use assets bought FROM STORES?" 'nough said. I think.

Let me repeat: I'm not defending Mookai's game in itself (and I even disagree with science Boy on the Quality of Mookai's other produce shown here on the Forums; to me, they are lacking a lot on logic and contingency), but his Video clearly showed what it would be like .
And if it really were so that the shortcomings of his game are taken out on the GG engine and all games that may be created by it by the steam community, then that doesnt't speak for this community there.

TGC always said that one of their goals for GameGuru was to enable the user easily to produce commercial quality games which they would be allowed to sell. I would not suggest that this is only possible if you only use assets you have made yourself. However, no-one wants to see dozens of games for sale all with exactly the same church or whatever. This is one reason why I'm looking forward to the Easy Building tool - my hope is it will allow the user to create truly unique structures without modelling skills. Of course you still need background buildings and stuff. Rescaling and retexturing would be a way to make things look different. For anyone who wants to try some modelling for the first time I recommend Milkshape 3D - it is easy and cheap.

I seem to have missed your point, initially I just wanted to point out how wrong the idea was that you didn't have license to alter media bought in the store. Not my intent or my place to tell anyone how much or little would be required to pacify the Steam crew.
I think whats being missed here is that this particular game was literally thrown together and thrown up on Greenlight without any of the thought someone should put into trying to get a game Greenlit. Mookai himself says he took weeks then says it was weeks but limited as he has only a few spare hours here and there, so lets be honest it wasn't weeks of work it was thrown together in a short number of hours...comparatively speaking.

It wasn't in the slightest an attempt at creating a worthwhile game to sell, this was an experiment. Yes I agree some of the statements and comments are outrageously stupid but he put it up there and cant complain if he doesn't like the reaction. What he shouldn't do is get defensive about it and react in kind which he did with his Canadian comment, if you cant stand the Steam stay out of the laundry room.

I remember way back someone released a purely stock FPSC game which drove some users nuts, I don't know if they were more annoyed that they didn't do it themselves albeit the game was as bad as expected. It could be said that GG games will all look the same but that's not the entire point, it is gameplay that will sell your game not the content if your going to use GameGuru, just in the same way if your an indie developer using Unity or Unreal and buying from their stores. You will recognise the content only if your a GG user yourself. Until there are a dozen games all using the exact same assets out there that is, to me this was a wasted opportunity which someone else might have taken more seriously and did a far better job and at least maybe have a little success.
Anyone considering the idea of selling a game using only stock would need to think hard about gameplay, the hook that GG is the easiest gamecreator may be true, it is also true that you can sell your games but anyone thinking you can just purchase, create and sell out of the box isn't going to create anything worthwhile or anything that says 'this is my game'.

Because Mookai has only been messing around he has come across on Greenlight as someone 'cynically cashing in' to Greenlight voters, I know that wasn't the intent but I am not surprised by the reaction.

we're going way off topic now, sorry mookai
but i think visuals are suggestive, you can have a great idea and poor visuals and get away with it - especially if it's early access - because you can always update the visuals later, or maybe they dont need to look great, i.e. minecraft.
or you can still sell a great looking game with little game play with some clever advertising/promotional videos - to be fair this 1 is actually rarer because it's hard to get the budget for great visuals without managing to be smart enough to come up with (or steal) a fun or good game idea, maybe F1 games are a good example, simple gameplay but nice looking.
or maybe a low budget game with humour thrown in to make it entertaining.

this game has none of that, it screams lack of effort, and the reviews are very fair to call it out... if it was early access i would say it could definitely be turned into something more interesting, games like duke nukem aren't exactly much different imo (except a lot older) but they have a sense of humour that makes them remembered.

at the end of the day any game you create is your own, it's your idea and it's your work that goes into it, if you're happy with it then that's the important part but it's always a good idea to remember that people who are commenting on your game are potential customers, you can't please everyone but if most of them are telling you something then maybe it's worth listening to.

This is probably my last comment on this. I have been giving it a lot of thought. Bottom line: MooKai was within his/her rights to Greenlight this and everyone's opinion of the game is just that. I think that judging GameGuru on the quality of one game made with it would be a bit like judging an Xbox on one Xbox game or judging Blender on one model made with it. I know it's not quite the same thing because GameGuru is quite early in development, but let's at least see how Mookai's game does on Steam before being quite so aggressive.



I wish MooKai all the best with the game.

Guys, may I politely suggest that we let this our discussion end here, on the premise that we definitely agree on some items (strongest on "misbehaviour against Canadians" ) and partly somewhat disagree on others ?
I'm not running dry of Argumentation Points (and I assume: neither is one of you), and if someone REALLY insists on it, we could take the discussion to PM, but to what further positive avail ?
* Mutual misunderstandings between us have sufficiently been cleared,
* None of us likes the game,
* and None of us has any direct influence on it (if ANY at all).

What more could be achieved ?

For me, the learning effect is that one must be highly careful to not the least expect that a friendly community like here in the GG Forums also is even possible on steam, so, thank you for illuminating in that respect.

Ok ?

EDIT: Sorry. Only saw after posting this that smallg and Lord Julian also sort of agreed to stop it

I cannot agree or disagree on liking the game because I have not played it yet.

However, I agree we should let this subject be.

I think MooKai probably never meant to stir all this stuff up. We all want people to play our games, after all. Like I said, I wish him/her all the best with the game.

@lordjulian so be it. But watching the Video might be enough Might.

@ MooKai

I dare to imagine a better scenario.
If this is a mere promotional campaign, and then you come with the game more original, more elaborate, using ideas that many are providing, improving flaws that others have commented, adding everything improved version that the public demand, then I I can only say that this is a great idea, and also you already have a portion of the path, and is none other than advertising and also get free.

Many companies and famous do, a company X shows a photo of its clothing using a model say on stage in a war, it causes a great stir, is mentioned in all press, radio, television, and finally the company releases new model that had previously prepared, taking advantage of free publicity, which otherwise would have cost a lot of money. This may be reprehensible, but effective.

3com

Reading this thread and seeing someone say, you shouldn't put this on greenlight, game guru is no where near ready. Isn't really his fault, when Game Guru is on sale on Steam also. So in theory the devs have decided Game Guru is ready for steam.


All aside, I don't want to see every single tiny rubbish game on greenlight, but at the end of the day, the idea of greenlight is to filter out the rubbish by votes.

If a good game is created in Game Guru it should be able to go on to Greenlight with out people be aware it used Game Guru surely, because it will look so unique.