no offence meant just observations with queue jumping.

ok firstly some bits of the editor sytem have been completed like the select items.... you completed this

then noticed dlc for scifi is getting done yet no where near the top of the list... my question is, will the dlc packs be getting done along side the other stuff? if so why have them voted on? and i can understand the situation of certain things need to be done before other things. makes sense. but things are being done with no real rule to the votes.

the system is not making sense. i can understand you cant make it all in one day. but there are certain things that can be put on hold for a while
like building, kit character kit, dlc packs, weapon making kit and more i really want weapon kit but i can make a game without it. but things like infinite terrain are they real? for this will surely change how you will tackle the entire engine, water keeps coming up. this surely and sensibly should come before vehicles etc. the environment is essential to your engine night and day are less so than acidic water, and so forth

my point is this. can you not split the voting to a system that has major priority like speed and graphics and functions that will affect the speed etc. this will be a constant, so asking is if you are to establish a logical and better way with community voting maybe have a priority list which will sort out a better way of working for you and us. may be a lot faster. not everyone understands that ladder climb is less essential than occlusion or better ai.

if you think i am making life more difficult then i will humbly shut up and let you guys get on. but maybe i am being bias due to i cant really start a game till infinite and certain systems are in place. all this content and i cant even start making a game or level till i know how you are going to do things.

thank you for reading s.b.

I agree with you on this as I have said in the past scifi pack should not be on the voting list. one reason i want the scfi pack is to get something else and that is bullet tracer which will be with the scifi pack. but the performance stuff was already an ideal to add with the performance work if you read the blog like I do. The Hardware instancing and tree batching is a must with dx11 update and we will benefit from a lot. I was hoping at one point Lee would not hold this task off because of the voting system. because as I said it is a must have to keep the performance gain we got and will be getting from dx11. without The Hardware instancing and tree batching dx11 will just be dx11 without much to benefit from on performance. these two things are a key purpose to have dx11 in guru. the trees will drain less of the performance and make our gain worth having. I read the blog all the time and what Lee is doing, so I foreseen this becoming his next task. which bring me to why it was on the voting list in the first place. but what I do understand is these two key feature needs to be done with the release of dx11. there are some things on that list that should not be up to us when it comes to what we want first and what we will wait for last. the performance is one of them. We never made an game engine so who are we to say what can come next in the next update. I believe at this point we should just vote but at the same time let Lee do his thing because he knows best and more then we do. but I also think when the dx11 update get it's release Lee will work on the first two things at the top of the voting list. which will be save and load and the Bots to navigate stairs / heights. so I would not worry as I feel Lee is on track in the order of things being put in the engine.

Both you guys are missing the point slightly, DLC's for example gets done by a 3rd party artist, with mo affiliation to TGC, it doesn't affect the voting list in any way nor would it affect how long before the next item on the list gets done.

Many things on the list works like a double edge sword, for example the work on the DX11, a lot of it isn't purely about graphics, it is also about the rendering pipeline , so while some thing is much further down the list it directly ties in with current set of code being worked on.In order to satisfy users that they are going by the list, would you expect them to stop that code and move on to some thing unrelated,? that is a very messy way of going about things,

It is unfortunately a freak of nature, while voting priority says one thing coding would say some thing else, as many things on that list directly ties into DX 11, why shouldn't lee for example tackle the lift, ladders, and related to that section of code be in one swoop.

I he was to do DX11 and suddenly included the platformer game feature on the list, there would be need to cry foul.

While it seems unfair, but if you want broken or messy code, lets do one item at a time, regardless of code related things on that list, that said things should normalize after the DX11 update.Should remind you as well that both performance and DX11 was never on the list and was planned way before the voting feature came into affect.If they were to start on the water world DLC tomorrow it would be of no consequence as it will be done by an artist and not a programmer and has zero effect on the outcome of it, it also a reminder that content takes time, it needs to be created needs to be tested, fixed, changed ect, and then resubmitted for testing, 3 months could have passed by that time.

Would you rather wait they start with it when it's next on the list wait 3 months for it to be completed and then move onto the next item, it is also Xmas, so TGC will likely want to get it out the door before then.They will be updating the fantasy DLC as well as the death valley DLC, likely before xmas if testing goes well.

It is simply just a fluke.

@wizard of id I do get the point as to everything you said and I get what Lee is doing but I'm seeing how this can confuse others as I was not to sure about the voting board myself. but by reading the blog everyday help me understand where guru is headed as plan for the engine. in which as I said it does not need to be up to us to say what should be the next line of codes Lee should write in the engine. when I read the blog it makes sense why he is doing everything in the order of. that's why I agree with Lee next step to the dx11 update with the key features that is being added right along with it. I myself did not vote for save and load or the Bots to navigate stairs so I don't care at this point. all I care about is Lee keep doing what he feel is best in the order of things. because do in time Lee will complete the whole list and then it will not matter what comes first or last. at least we guru is going to be a beast of a game engine in time.

No has complained yet that the voting board has taken a back seat to performance and dx11 I doubt any will complain about it....

Bar the DLC, the things on that list is a relative quick, It wouldn't surprise me if all done by may next year, the hardest parts are nearly over.

The DLC is being done by a third party and has no impact on anything on the voting board. it has no effect or anything to do with the coding or progress of GameGuru ..The two Top features ( Save / Load and bots on all levels ) will be continuing as per Voted and then the next and so on.

Perhaps when its ready you wont get it till its voted for .... Now that would be silly

I guessed that the feature vote would take a back seat, as such, when a C++ version with the bonus of DX11 was announced and Lee got some new toys...

I'm not complaining, I'm perfectly happy with the direction of dev at the moment, and can't say I fully agreed or felt the voting board was a good idea anyway. Once the engine proper is mostly done, then other add-ons can be voted on more effectively. The voting board in itself is so long and bloated I'm sure it puts many off bothering.

My main issue with it is the ridiculous amount of options, many relating to each other, but split apart. I said at the time it was announced that it was way to confusing for most people, and in honesty I believe it is that way on purpose.. Have many, many options that spread the vote as thin as you can, that way you end up with a far less obvious winner and TGC can then pick and choose items more freely. For it to be effective there should be way, way less options. Certainly not the same thing dressed up as a different feature!

Deferred rendering, a feature on the list has already been worked on quite a lot from what I have read, yet as far as I know it is not that high on the list. Same with PBR, although that did get towards the top at one point. Basically many DX11 features are now on the cards and will be next. Many features people have not voted on will probably be introduced as part of it. I don't mind, I think it is much needed, but it isn't consistent with having a voting system, as put in the original post.

All that said, I think people need to realise the voting board is a general indication to show TGC what people want. The actual dev of GG has to be a bit more streamlined, while trying to please it's customers by adding features they want. Speed was the issue (still is to a degree) but at least now we do have a bit of headroom when making titles or demo's. I'm looking forward to DX11 being added, with hopefully a few more items off the list added. Tree batching being one of them, as foliage is still much too slow in GG.

Entirely possible .. When a certain feature is voted in it may force TGC to have to incorporate other features on the voting list at the same time. Personally I don't think this is a bad thing ..... The more that gets added the better IMHO

i have said i think tgc have to prioritise to what works correctly for them, this was my point, and dvader is correct there are so many features on the vote it is overwhelming, and some may not know what some or half actually mean. that said i know x11 was and is needed badly, why did we not start with that? as we all said or people with the times requested anyway. and sticking with x9 in my eyes probably wasted some time ( i may be wrong ) but it is about time with x11, that will also help with speeding up and allowing more spice to the engine, and better optimisations. so now we know they probably wasted a lot of time with old shaders etc. and older methods. so my question which i must ask properly which has not got an answer yet.
INFINATE TERRAIN- will this make any map we do void? will we have to scrap all our maps if we want to do infinate terrain. that is a perk but one that will define types of games. i am sure he will keep the square maps and i am sure this will work for many, but infinate terrain will need a lot of thought as vertexs saving and loading and a totally different way of game mechanics, so i want to make infite terrain game, do i wait for the feature before i put heart and soul into levels. as i am not into putting time into a level for it to be scrapped.

that was a main point i was wanting to be answered which i proberbly did not get across.

and maybe a more prioritise feature listing etc.

i'm fine with the way it's progressing now, the order of the votes is more for a general idea of what we want but it's still expected that Lee and team know best what can and can't be added in a realistic and timely order... above all it's great to see some progress being made again

as for infinite terrain... i'd imagine you'll need to hold off on any "infinite terrain" map creation until it's actually implemented, as with everything Lee will hopefully try make it optional though so i can't see current maps becoming unusable (they just wont have infinite terrain) - purely a guess though.

Lee will probably have to answer your question, as you say this is a totally different way to have terrain.
He will be back on Monday and he will go threw the threads to catch up on what he missed.

cheers guys

@science boy. I scrap maps all the time. It can be annoying, but hell, making maps in GG is pretty sweet, so never really been an issue for me (apart from the occasional OMG crash which obliterates hours of work, thankfully not near as common as it was). Agreed, if you have an awesome level that has taken weeks to make then you really don't want to remake it all over. However, I don't see the need for an infinite map... You can easily have several maps you load between for a truly huge game experience. Yes, not as impressive as a continually loading world, but as GG doesn't, and has never supported this, a better bet.

You sometimes have to change your plans to accomodate what you have. If you really want infinite terrain, I suggest you come back in a few years, because I can guarantee it will take a long time in coming. I don't even think the big boys support this by default in all honesty. Unreal supports some gigantic maps, but not seen infinite as yet... Plus, if you have used Unreal, you will know even the demo maps can take forever to build and run. I say this, Unreal is awesome, but holy monkey balls, it takes a serious machine to run properly! The outdoor pack is ridiculous (very nice, but even so)!

I would consider dropping your (imo) overly ambitious aims and re-thinking your game, so you can get a game made! I'm not being a fan boy here, really, try adjusting your goals a little, you may be surprised at what you manage to make. GG is the only tool for the job, unless you are a polyglot and can do all things equally well, by which I mean industry level!

Have a play, see what you can achieve given GG's current features. you may be quite impressed!

@dvader, i do hear you but it is 26 or 27 in the voting system so not that far away and considering a lot will of been achieved it may come up to the top next year, i hear what you are saying and yes you can achieve in a kinda way but if we are actually going to get it then i may as well hold off and do some practicing and maybe a few different ideas till i can continue the main plan. if it was not up there at all i would not even be writing this. but as it is in there and seeds at 26 or 27 and will only be getting closer i may as well hold off till i hear from lee and co. but i do get inspired by your work mr d.

I've been waiting 10 years (since 2006) for an all around completed first person shooter engine from TGC. I'm patient.

it is more not a gripe or anything just more a not want to start something if things will change if you know what i mean, i am happy to wait for it if it is coming, and do other projects but if it is not really going to be in ever then i can alter my way of making my original game and start. i guess what you are all saying is be patient, which i am being as i can put a game on hold. and do other projects and other things while waiting. but now i sound whingy which i did not start off as, and still dont feel i am whingey, just more now wanting to know some information before i decide what i am going to do with things. .

Thanks for the opinions and perspectives, very useful to get a sense of how the voting board is regarded. As revealed in other answers, the feature list is a way to schedule what Ravey and myself work on. The Scifi and DLC art takes many months and created by third party artists so doesn't affect the timetable of the other features, and in a way I agree it should not be on the list give this information. I will ask Rick to remove the DLC items from the voting board to make things clearer. If you spot any other items that are confusing the issue, let me know directly at lee@thegamecreators.com

QUESTION ON INFINITE TERRAIN - "will this make any map we do void? will we have to scrap all our maps if we want to do infinite terrain. that is a perk but one that will define types of games. I am sure he will keep the square maps and I am sure this will work for many, but infinite terrain will need a lot of thought as vertex's saving and loading and a totally different way of game mechanics, so I want to make infinite terrain game, do I wait for the feature before I put heart and soul into levels. as I am not into putting time into a level for it to be scrapped?"

The plan for this is to retain backwards compatibility with all maps, but the underlying technology would be replaced with a streaming terrain system so both geometry and textures would be spooled in as you get closer to the virtual borders of the current location (multicore so you will not notice a slow down, just the sound of your hard drive whirling). Ravey has experimented with this in the past and is a great solution for those users who want to create massive multiplayer worlds and open world single player campaigns, but of course would require a much larger terrain swap file to ship with your final game, but we have to provide the data somehow The real headache I foresee is the amount of time to create such a large detailed world, so we will probably need new tools to solve this new issue such as feature to automagically create forests, deserts and other large landscape formations so you don't have to place every blade of grass.

SCIFI DLC removed from Feature Voting - thanks for the feedback!

well since I only voted for the scifi I guess there goes my vote.lol. but what about the features from that pack like the bullet tracer? this feature was my only reason to vote for it. ever since fpsc x10 had this feature with lasers tracer coming at you I always wanted that same feature in fpsc. now that we have move on the guru I want to see this effect again giving a scifi that scifi effect. well thanking you Lee for making sense of this. I always felt that the scifi pack was something that will come when it is ready to be release. so I'm glad I guess I will use my strong vote on something.

cheers lee, i will think about starting and with infinate in mind thank you for clearing that up

Yes you can use your vote freely without any influence from anyone .... Even if it isn't 3rd Person for every character
You can pick whatever you like ...Even not that one ...

@synchromesh lol are you sure about that?

INfinate terain terain terain terain terain ( echos to silent )

..terrain, terrain

That would be great thanks.

In a way, you'll get the LASER BEAM projectile sooner as the SCIFI DLC will be released once all the art is ready, and adding the laser weapon will be part of that deliverable The good news is that we already have the subsystem in place, and it will just take a little bit of art, some sounds and a nice particle+decal effect and you will have your laser I might also be tempted to see if I can code it via LUA so you can take more control of these lasers, but that's for another thought on another day!

@Lee awesome! can't wait for that day.

Hi MXS, feel free to post some youtube links showing the best in-game lasers you have seen, and I will see what I can do to clone the technique

The video bellow values more than one billion words if we really need "infinite map", "hugest map", or not ...



How many assets, buildings, forests, AI's etc. do you want to use in just one decent size level map,
and that level can be still remaining playable ?
Use the "indoor.lua" as a trigger, or "noterrain.lua", or "nowater.lua", or all of those,
if you need more space to play IN JUST ONE GAME LEVEL, because you can use a lot of game levels now,
and toggle one by the next levels...
But you will still see the sky limits as a cube in your desired "infinite map"

P.S. Read more here at: https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/211412

for one a new sytem will be implemented so that blows your theory really, and then we have a whole batch of techniques on its way with x11 and also batching instancing etc etc. lee would not put it in if he thought it was not do able so i have faith and want and voted for it and will remain in favour of it. why challenge directly an item on the voting board (not meaning in the way i put this thread up as in order of things, and the information needed).
in the end it is in the voting system. no offence but i think you have no problems and can use what method you want. and me mine, i want infinate for a reason it works with my game, i presume you have ideas on how yours works, i wont knock your voted choices and especially challenge them. have a good day

Quoting Lee

that was quoting me

heres lee

LOL .... Apologies that's Lee not using the Quote feature on the forum.....
I just read that part thinking it was all his post ..

At the moment I need 'infinite skies' and it's not too far off this already. As for many levels I'mdesigning are air combat so don't need terrain as such.

Just another perspective

@ Old Larry. Can't see what you mean by that video? The skybox is moved with the player in a terrain that is huge or infinite, so not an issue (well that's how I did it in DB, and I am guessing it is done the same way in other games. Personally I would prefer a looping map than infinite as, well, planets are round. Not that I'd fancy designing a planet size map!

If you mean speed, which judging by your actual post and not the vid, you are probably right at the moment. Been giving GG a few different tests and are already running low on speed. I have 6 houses, shrubbery, grass and a bit of a road with some telephone lines along it. It looks okay, but still needs a little more debris or clutter in it, not to mention interior furniture and many other things inside the houses, or even npc's. I'm getting to about 28 fps on highest quality settings, 45 or so with occlusion on. However occlusion for me is not working even remotely well overall. Bushes and other small items pop up way too close to the player and look terrible. Pop up has never been that bad in even really old games that I remember. Shadows also pop on and off too obviously and too close for me. So I have to disable it completely (even then some bushes and such vanish when you are close). In honesty, I'd have more luck using my own occlusion script that I did a short while back, as at least there, I have control over how it occludes things...

So yes, a gigantic scrolling terrain is for certain being a little hopeful at present, or at least on my spec computer. I'm sure people with more up to date beasts have a lot less issues. Still, as many people say, GG's graphics do not impress to the point where someone is willing to upgrade their machine to play a game made in it. Not if their machine currently runs all the top games anyway. I've yet to try a game on this old Q6600 I have, that will not run at a playable rate (although I'm sure there are, just that I hate those games anyway and so not interested).

GG at the moment for me is capable of making small games, basically on rails affairs (small scenes, with a set way to complete, rather than literally on rails). Unless you have a massive minimum spec for your game. I always try to see if I can make a map that takes up all the available area of the map with each new release. I've yet to manage it or even get close really. Closest I have come is my occlusion test map with 4 or 5 thousand trees, which looks good, but again is not even close to an actual finished map.

I'll be sticking to small projects for the near future I think. Making a GTA, Fallout or Skyrim type game is just not possible on my system in GG. I'm not sure how much boost DX11 will be, but it would need to be pretty big to change this.

@dvader I'm having the same problem with the occlusion and have reluctantly had to switch it off and craft own version where I can control what entities are shown/hidden.

A lua command for the engine occlusion might help sometimes so can dynamically turn on/off when appropriate. As would an fpe entity flag for those that should never be subject to the engine occlusion.

Cheers.

I agree and have asked in another thread, for lua control of the occlusion so we can adjust it as needed in game. I think the occlusion still has a few niggles that need ironing out as yet, so will have to be patient with it.

Lee has added a few new commands for the next update, which will be good though, so it may happen sooner rather than later Sounds like we will have some much requested input and image commands in soon!

I have given the occluder popping issue to Ravey as a top priority. I will also add manual control of the occluder slider in LUA so you can make tweaks as you game needs them, but ultimately the occluder should 'just work' and not interfere with your visible objects and shadows to a noticeable degree. We don't mind very small and distant objects disappearing, but it sounds like this is very much not the case. If you can mock-up a small level with stock media that can be emailed to Ravey (raveymilton@googlemail.com) then he can reproduce quickly the issue at hand and produce a solution for the next update.

Hi guys,

I have fixed the issue where shadows would pop due to the related entity being occluded. If you want minimal popping but the occluder at 10 or below. 10 and lower does very limited distance based removal of entities. at 1 you still get full occlusion calcs.

I have also fixed an issue where certain objects would vanish due to slightly naughty geometry.